Ok, some folks are screaming sour grapes (I guess then George Bush won fair and square both in 2000 and 2004 and the USSC had nothing to do with it, and the people from Cuyahooga County who went to jail shouldn't be in Jail)

Others are going WAAAAMBULANCE

And then they are accusing people concerned about electoral transparency of not liking the results since their guy didn't win

So let me make this clear... my guy in this one is electoral transparency, the beating heart of democracy, my vote, your vote, and making sure they are counted the way they are cast. Oh to use the old phrase of the 2000 election... INTENT of the voter...

Folks every time you see these wild swings in polls versus the actual election, REGARDLESS of who is winning and who is loosing, YOUR antenna should be in the ON position. Especially when proprietary machines, that are being DECERTIFIED nationwide, are involved... and the firmware is quite ready to be hackd.

Now there is also plenty of evidence that these machines are utterly hackable. So to dismiss this possibility just because your candidate won... is not only stupid, but short sighted. This is not about ONE primary... or ONE candidate. This is about the process and how to keep that process clean and accountable.

Oh and those screaming sour grapes or waaambulance... children behave better. What if... they used NH to test systems that will be deployed in the GE? What if they steal the election ONCE again? Remember, NH has not decertified these machines yet... They should... but they have not... will you be screaming fraud? Better to make sure it is not happening this early in the process than have it stolen once again because you cannot accept the possibility that they are at it once again since your favored candidate won...

Oh and who benefits? Many forces in this country benefit... suffice it to say, NOT YOU.

any single contest.

dismissal of election fraud in certain quarters.

Granted, many folks cannot accept that we have become a banana republic, but that is besides the point

You are preaching to the choir with me, but what kind of polling, since it came almost the night before to worry again about state machinery, contradicts today's results? Some showed Hillary leading and gaining. Others were lost in polling momentum designed to track Obama's bounce. At no time, despite the gasbags, did anything have time to show an actual electoral collapse for Clinton outside Iowa. In fact, despite wishful thinking or guessing there was NO time to ground any such certitude. People shout "change" and "momentum" and most often something else is really driving things. Trying to spark a rout never hurt, just as in a confused battle, but it very often has nothing to do with reality except spread panic and mind-changing.

Romney would have done better if the fraud was large. The GOP danger is more there. IF the NH vote was closer it might have helped or hurt more. They will have to turn off the year of the woman fighter which their idiot pundits who can't even make the GOP slobs look good in controlled debates continually fuel. But future races if this gets tighter? We in continuing danger and it is unlikely any campaign has the energy or resources to even look in that direction. One might say(cynically) that Hillary overall has the least to worry about- in the primaries.

Face it. This year's candidates are positioned too strong and too well supported to be simply washed out early. Some typical good effort and the lines are held. No, the REAL battle may indeed be critically effected but it will take more time than a few days. The failure of the rout has in fact helped Hillary more than anything else. For now, we have a real campaign developing and I hope it burns away the hype and phoniness and the coasting and forces people to judge the real deal while they have yet a voice in the matter other than being fans following behind the machine.

Obama and Clinton

All I am saying is keep your eyes open

And by the way... the plus side of this is the coronation that the MSM was ready to carry out didn't happen

But I just keep my eyes open for this crap

And one of the solutions to this crap are people voting en-masse

HAND-COUNTED PAPER BALLOTS

NO MACHINES

And a consciousness that the "instant gratification thing" is LESS IMPORTANT than a transparent, auditable process.

Maybe my old brain is collapsing but I heard some polls, that everyone jumped on, saying hillary was closing or leading. I assumed that the polls at least were taken offguard by Iowa and the Obama trumpet call for the charge. In one day I and apparently most others had no idea what was going on there really. The cover story is that the woman backlash vote reasserted the pretty hard won oriiginal standings in the state. The Clintons will NEED the woman backlash vote to stymy the GOP yet the net result is only the staus quo before Iowa. The real eye should be focussed on the national polls which take time to move while more events- like NH- keep stirring the pot. I think some long term things are still coming into play running against the clock.

Want to see the biggest barometer changes, see the Convention. That's when we always seem to get a big bounce that evaporates like snow in the Sahara every single time. The media always hypes it a bit too which is either veyr big or very stupid of them.

There is always a chunk for the last minute, drama, skulduggery, whatever. The big slices do not move much. IF Hillary has a thin but broad appeal we shall see. This is not going to be easy. IF Obama can scoop up the center skillfully and outperform the Clintons. If they fail and Edwards keeps being skillful and moving up... These will still have more significance than how they wasted Reno in Florida. Or rather we were hoping the relatively immune but tny Iowa caucuses would have spared us Diebold risk?

By the skin of our teeth during an undeclared war against pure, unaccountable fraud. That is what it hangs on until we all jump in and do our duty.

happen (for the record NOT ONLY in the US... since democracy is under attack world wide.

And yes, my spidey sense may be going off prematurely... but there is way too much at stake... aka clean elections

they seem to have a much more transparent and honest system there - those rotten dirty pinko commies. ;)

Newly passed election reform bill in New Jersey, does as good a job as they can as to audits.

I am at least encouraged that there is an effort to insure some protection fo rvoters. I do hope it is followed by other States concerned by the disastrous effects of the GOP corruption of 2000 & 04.

Good Read:
----------------------------------
Newark, NJ - Just after 1:00 a.m. this morning, voting on its last bill
of the session, the New Jersey General Assembly passed legislation that
will require random, mandatory audits of election results designed to
detect outcome-reversing miscounts. Once signed by the governor, the
provisions will take effect immediately, which will require all
absentee ballots in the February primary to be subject to auditing.
Once the voter-verifiable paper record is implemented, all ballots will
be subject to audit.

The bill, which was sponsored by Senator Nia Gill (D-Essex), is
being hailed as model legislation for election integrity. It was
designed by the New Jersey Citizens' Coalition on the Implementation of
HAVA (Help America Vote Act) with the assistance of a Ph.D. political
scientist, experienced election integrity advocates from two states
that have election auditing laws, Ph.D. statisticians from the American
Statistical Association, and other voting rights advocates, all of whom
worked pro bono.
.............
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_press_re_080109_nj_passes_groundbrea.htm

---------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the post nadinbrzezinski, I have a difficult time believing the corruption of the last two elections is not in play this time around. We need to be vigilant as ever.
Thanks for your post.

make it very well, indeed.

There should be NO UNCERTAINTY.

Why is there?

There should be a 100% basis of confidence in the results.

Why isn't there?

There should be total transparency.

Where is it?

There should be a counting of every vote in public view.

Why didn't this occur?

There should be NO SECRET CODE, CONTROLLED BY RIGHTWING BUSHITE CORPORATIONS, in our election system.

Why do we have this?

If someone really wins, they and their supporters should be able to enjoy their honest and transparent victory.

Why do we have a system in which this cannot happen?

------------------------

As a leftist--anti-corporate, anti-unjust war, pro-working class, pro-people--I am JUSTIFIABLY suspicious of an election result that favors corporations and war and the super-rich, produced by voting machines that are run on 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations, with virtually no audit/recount controls.

I think this is a fair and reasonable suspicion.

My political beliefs definitely contribute to my distrust of Hillary's win, but I would be somewhat distrustful of anyone whom Diebold machines gave a win to. If it was an Edwards win, I would question whether Edwards really is who he says he is--a fighter for the people against corporate power. How do we know for sure--when we have been betrayed so often by both Democratic and Republican politicians? It's not easy to judge candidates in this excessively putrid atmosphere. One test is corporate media--be suspicious of anyone they favor. Another is Diebold/ES&S--be suspicious of anyone they (s)elect.

The Democratic Party leadership has been criminally and traitorously negligent on our voting system. They have aided and abetted this Bushite corporate takeover of the voting system. It is bewildering--until you study things and begin to realize that it's about their support for the war, firstly, and, secondly, their support for corporate rule; there is hardly a one of them who isn't bought and paid for; and there is hardly a member of Congress, R or D, who can prove that he or she was actually elected.

The D's are smoother and talk a better line--but the river of blood in Iraq is their doing as well as Bush/Cheney's. The whole goddamned lot of them are beholden to war profiteers, global corporate predators, and Bushite election theft corporations. Well, there are a few exceptions, I think--real representatives of the people who would have been elected anyway, politicians who are trying their best, in this cauldron of corruption we call our government. But the political establishment as a whole is more corrupt than at any time in our history--beyond the pale corrupt, mindbogglingly corrupt. And you need go no further than an analysis of the vote counting system to see it. It is not possible for honest people to have allowed this to happen. And it is not possible for this to have happened without the knowledge and complicity of our party leaders and elected officials. Perhaps the few good ones are fearful, and that's why they are silent. Fear is understandable in BushWorld. I was witness to the attack on our good Sec of State in California, Kevin Shelley, who tried to sue Diebold in 2004, before the election. I repeat, fear is understandable. I think fear is why Barbara Boxer and John Conyers mostly objected to the suppression of black voters in Ohio, and greatly soft-pedaled any exposure or criticism of the blatantly non-transparent and wrongful election system that had been fast-tracked everywhere during the 2002 to 2004 period.

Fear. And now we face more war and more corporate looting. I think that's what Hillary's win means. It's all over, for now. She is the 'made' candidate, precisely because she poses no threat whatsoever to the corporate rulers and war profiteers and war criminals and shredders of our Constitution. I've been seeing this coming since 11/3/04, but that doesn't make it easier. I fear for my country and its people, and for myself and my family and friends. We are all about to be FURTHER looted, to pay down the $10 trillion deficit for this horrible corporate resource war and for the profit of the super-rich. The riggable voting system was installed for this purpose. It is the ultimate in corporate rule--direct control of our election results.

And we have not seen the end of the corporate resource war. I am convinced that Theater II of the Oil War is South America, and that our kids are going to be fighting and dying in the Andes mountains and Amazon jungles for Occidental Petroleum and Exxon-Mobile, before the decade is out. D or R, it doesn't matter. All the signs are present--including on op-ed by none other than Donald Rumsfeld, this Dec. 1, 2007, in the Washington Post, virtually declaring war on Venezuela. (You wondered what Rumsfeld was up to in his "retirement"? Planning Oil War II.)

And we'll just have to endure it, and fight for the future--with our first priority being: restoring transparent vote counting. It can be done. There are many struggles going on about it, all over the country. But the system got entrenched so quickly--with the $3.9 billion electronic voting boondoggle from the Anthrax Congress--that it has been very difficult to dislodge. Perhaps Hillary will not stand in our way, once she is in power. But whether she does or not, it must be done. And it can be done. And the future of our country depends on it. We will not see ANY serious reform until we have restored vote counting that everyone can see and understand.

or the left handed widget, just clean elections

There is always some hanky panky going on... but the hanky panky has gone to the point that spidey sense just starts a-tingling

continually favor war and corporate ruler policy, time and again, when every questionable election, with weird outcomes, and red flag anomalies, favors Bushites, when polls and numerous other indicators favor a progressive outcome and that outcome is changed inside the voting machines, and when 70% of the American people oppose a war, and the war just goes on and on and on, even after an election in which the voters said that that was the chief issue, and that they voted for Democrats to stop the war (but maybe didn't realize they were voting for "Blue Dog" Democrats who SUPPORT the war, because the anti-war Dems had been Diebolded out in the primary), it IS about war/corporate candidates vs. real progressives.

What do you think the purpose of "TRADE SECRET" vote counting, owned and controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations, IS? Hm? Its purpose is to fuck over the interests of the majority! The interests of "organized money" (as FDR described it) are always the interests of a small fascist elite. The interests of the majority are always progressive--protection of the "little guy," workers' rights, government help for the poor, education, fairness, a level playing field, regulation of the "robber barons" (today, global corporate predators), "one person one vote," civil rights for all, etc.

And WHOSE interests have been served by Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia's 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting? The interests of a small fascist elite!

It IS about fascists and corporatists and warmongers vs. real progressives. It IS. That's what the 'TRADE SECRET' code is FOR--to keep real progressives OUT OF POWER, and to keep the war, and the looting, and the multiple tax cuts for the rich, going.

Wake up!

and relay them accurately.

K & R

Diebold is the poster child, but lets not forget about ES&S the Poster Child of Cuyahooga county.

but know that when the wolf really is their no one will believe you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2639218

many poo- poed the Ohio theft at Cuyahooga OH. I guess the folks CONVICTED and SERVING TIME over that one didn't do a thing huh?

The only way to ensure clean elections is to be alert... REGARDLESS OF WHO IS WINNING.

then we part ways here.



As I clearly stated, when it comes to elections MY CANDIDATE IS A CLEAR AND VERIFIABLE ELECTION...

And yes, the wild gyrations in polls and DIEBOLD make me go hmmm... but if you think that is crying wolf... so be it

then we part ways here.



As I clearly stated, when it comes to elections MY CANDIDATE IS A CLEAR AND VERIFIABLE ELECTION...

And yes, the wild gyrations in polls and DIEBOLD make me go hmmm... but if you think that is crying wolf... so be it

If not tough luck.

I see.

Good luck in keeping a democracy going with that attitude

Good for us.

in the Ohio recount. Unless someone VERIFIES that those ballots are good, it does about as much good as a phone book.

...this is the sort of willful ignorance that drives logical types like myself to distraction.

There are others on other threads.

or 2) Are in complete denial as voters.

Yes, the media is picking up the electronic voting story but in a very abstracted way. It took the NYTs three years to even look into it at all.

you will only be preaching to the choir.

What is it you used to say about the Coincidence Theorists whenever you or I or others posted "Naomi Wolf" type threads.

Counting down... three... two... one... here they come!

How long until someone slams you for your sour grapes and calls for the waaaaahmbulanbce for you?

Hell, it may have already happened while I was typing this.

ON EDIT: Oh, they are already here. They are predictable cusses, aren't they, and immune to their hypocrisy and irony.

to the idea that people took sides on this depending on their allegiance to a candidate.

The poster's conclusion was that Hillary's fans would never do such a thing.

:rofl:

That is too funny.

lol

:)

This is exactly what we need, a cool-headed voice of reason to show why the election results must be absolutely transparent.