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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:00 AM Original message |
New Yorkers should be alert - new threat to Lever Machines |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:15 AM Response to Original message |
1. More: IRV is a well intended reform, but doesn't meet its promise. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:19 AM Response to Reply #1 |
3. Other nations are using IRV . . . let's look at their actual experiences . . . |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:22 AM Response to Reply #3 |
4. I live in the foreign country of North Carolina, and IRV is threatening our verified voting law |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:29 AM Response to Reply #4 |
7. This is an old problem, having nothing to do with IRV -- |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 02:09 AM Response to Reply #7 |
13. How a 2007 IRV experiment violated several of NC election laws |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 04:00 PM Response to Reply #13 |
24. But WHO violated your laws ... |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:24 AM Response to Reply #3 |
5. Scotland traded hand counted paper ballots for STV (a form of IRV) |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:31 AM Response to Reply #5 |
8. IRV has nothing to do with computer counting .... |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 02:02 AM Response to Reply #8 |
12. did you read the OP? IRV incentivizes computerized voting machines |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 04:04 PM Response to Reply #12 |
25. That's an OPINION ... |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 08:36 PM Response to Reply #25 |
44. Thats an opinion of an internationally reknowned Computer Scientist |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 12:49 AM Response to Reply #44 |
55. It's still OPINION . . . and you're on ignore . . . |
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OnTheOtherHand (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 08:44 PM Response to Reply #55 |
63. in your case, the phrase "epic fail" comes to mind |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 02:10 AM Response to Reply #8 |
14. IRV just happens to incentivize computerized counting |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 04:10 PM Response to Reply #14 |
26. Voters were confused by "butterfly ballot" ...that's why they were banned .... |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 08:14 PM Response to Reply #26 |
40. Electionline: "Ranked-Choice Voting and Flawed Ballots Tax San Francisco's Election" |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 08:17 PM Response to Reply #26 |
41. San Francisco Grand Jury Report: Instant runoff not understood by voters and poll workers |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 12:47 AM Response to Reply #41 |
54. Are you repeating this . . . |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:17 AM Response to Original message |
2. IRV can be paper and pen . . . doesn't have to be computer . . . |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:26 AM Response to Reply #2 |
6. Yes it could be but it requires software to count it - hence bye bye lever machines |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:31 AM Response to Reply #6 |
9. The problem is the dishonesty of HAVA not IRV . . . |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:59 AM Response to Reply #9 |
11. HAVA doesn't require voting machines |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 03:43 PM Response to Reply #11 |
22. Did I read ALL of HAVA ... No ... |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 06:26 PM Response to Reply #22 |
30. where did you read that HAVA required "voting machines"? |
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Wilms (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 10:27 PM Response to Reply #30 |
47. That's right. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 01:03 AM Response to Reply #47 |
56. To be fair . . . it's a program which offers duplicity/trickery . . . |
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Wilms (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 01:49 AM Response to Reply #56 |
60. Fine. I'll agree. "most interpertations are that it pushes states/counties to electronic voting..." |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 07:14 PM Response to Reply #60 |
61. HAVA didn't require ditching punch cards either |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 07:59 PM Response to Reply #61 |
62. From what I recall in recent reading ... |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jan-07-09 12:11 PM Response to Reply #62 |
64. Read again. HAVA did not ban punch cards |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jan-07-09 12:13 PM Response to Reply #62 |
65. please provide a citation for what you read |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 02:20 AM Response to Reply #2 |
16. please tell us how IRV is counted in the United States and Scotland |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 04:14 PM Response to Reply #16 |
27. Please explain ... |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 06:27 PM Response to Reply #27 |
31. do you know anything about IRV, like how it is counted? |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 07:27 PM Response to Reply #31 |
33. How about ... |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 07:48 PM Response to Reply #33 |
36. IRV makes it easier to rig the election or just flat out miscount it |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 12:42 AM Response to Reply #36 |
52. Baloney . .. that's Dem/Repug propaganda cause they don't want change ... |
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frazzled (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:33 AM Response to Original message |
10. What makes you want to cling to lever machines? |
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Bill Bored (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 04:28 AM Response to Reply #10 |
18. Learn why NY wants to cling to lever machines: |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 04:21 PM Response to Reply #18 |
28. Agreed.... lever machines may be harder to fix ... |
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Bill Bored (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 08:23 PM Response to Reply #28 |
43. Don't take HAVA money, except to provide accessibility. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 12:46 AM Response to Reply #43 |
53. Re your last paragraph . . . |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 12:45 PM Response to Reply #10 |
19. like clinging to their guns and religion? |
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frazzled (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 02:11 AM Response to Original message |
15. I ask again: what is wrong with a good (computerized) optical scanning of paper ballots? |
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Bill Bored (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 04:15 AM Response to Reply #15 |
17. NY is way ahead of the game! |
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frazzled (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:10 PM Response to Reply #17 |
20. I am sorry ... |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 01:33 PM Response to Reply #20 |
21. please answer these questions so you can prove optical scan is better than levers: |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 04:22 PM Response to Reply #20 |
29. You can have PAPER with any system .... |
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Bill Bored (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 08:06 PM Response to Reply #20 |
38. A possibility to recount by hand? When and where? |
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Wilms (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 10:33 PM Response to Reply #20 |
48. "the possibility to recount by hand" |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 03:53 PM Response to Original message |
23. I think we had best be "warned" that resistance to IRV comes mainly ... |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 06:30 PM Response to Reply #23 |
32. Dr. Rebecca Mercuri: IRV leads to "potential gaming" of the ballot |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 07:36 PM Response to Reply #32 |
34. I think we all have open minds about elections ... |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 08:04 PM Response to Reply #34 |
37. Libertarian Reform Caucus: "Anyone for a Bullet in the Foot? Instant Runoff!" |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 08:40 PM Response to Reply #34 |
45. Why does IRV lead to 2-party domination? |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 12:40 AM Response to Reply #45 |
51. Without doubt, the 2-party monopoly wants to keep lock on elections . . . |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 01:24 AM Response to Reply #51 |
59. without a doubt, IRV entrenches the 2-party monopoly |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 08:19 PM Response to Reply #23 |
42. Australian Politics: "promotes a two-party system...." |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 07:39 PM Response to Original message |
35. For those not familiar with the decades of computer steals ... |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 08:07 PM Response to Reply #35 |
39. "IRV.. not summable.... makes it more susceptible to tampering" |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 12:36 AM Response to Reply #39 |
49. That's Dem/Repug propaganda -- they sure don't want CHOICE ....!!! |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 01:23 AM Response to Reply #49 |
58. and you support IRV which incentivizes computerized voting |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-05-09 08:42 PM Response to Reply #35 |
46. "The complexity of IRV ...provides increased opportunities for wholesale fraud or malfunction" |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 12:38 AM Response to Reply #46 |
50. The opponents of IRV are Dems and Repugs who don't want voters . . . |
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WillYourVoteBCounted (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-06-09 01:23 AM Response to Reply #50 |
57. Attack the messenger because you have no facts |
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