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Counting Ohio provisional ballots (David Shuster) - Break Down Of The #'s

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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:55 PM
Original message
Counting Ohio provisional ballots (David Shuster) - Break Down Of The #'s
If Kerry gets 80% of provisionals and 80% of spoiled, even with out any additional investigation, the numbers are going to be Florida 2k close... And this is with out the discoveries that will be made during the recount.

<<
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5445086/

Election boards all across Ohio have started counting "provisional ballots" in the presidential election. These are the ballots that were given to voters who believed they were registered but whose names didn't appear on the precinct list on election day. The verification process may take up to two weeks. In most states, approximately 85 percent of all provisional ballots are eventually verified and counted in the final vote tally. And the early reports out of Ohio suggest the "count" list in some counties will be as high as 90 percent.

As it stands, there are approximately 155,000 provisional ballots. So, one can expect at least 130,000 ballots to be verified and "added to the final count."

There is another number that will eventually come into play in the Buckeye state... and that's the number of "spoiled ballots." The Green/Libertarian coalition, through recountohio.org, has already raised enough money to pay for a statewide recount. And the group is now raising even more cash so they can hire recount monitors. A statewide recount will include a visual examination of all 93,000 "spoiled ballots" that indicated "no" vote for President. (The "no vote" is usually a machine-tabulation problem because of chads, hanging chads, and etc.) A brilliant e-mailer named Matthew Fox has analyzed which counties reported "spoiled ballots." And it does appear that approximately 60 pecent of all the spoiled ballots come from heavily Democratic urban areas.

Can the "provisional ballots" and "spoiled ballots" change the Ohio outcome? As it stands, the difference between President Bush and John Kerry is 136,483 votes. When John Kerry decided to concede, here is some of the math his campaign looked at:

If you assume, for the sake of argument, that Kerry receives 80 percent of the 130,000 provisional ballots most observers expect will be validated... Kerry would receive 104,000 votes and President Bush would get 26,000. That's a net gain for John Kerry of 78,000. At that point, the margin between President Bush and Senator Kerry would drop to 58,000 votes.

Now, let's assume a preference can be determined on all 93,000 spoiled ballots. And let's also assume John Kerry receives 80% and President Bush receives 20%. John Kerry would receive 74,400 votes and President Bush would receive 18,600 votes. That's another net gain for John Kerry of 55,800. However, that still leaves John Kerry 3,000 votes short. And remember, the theory that Kerry is going to receive 80% of all provisional and "spoiled" ballots is not realistic. As the Kerry campaign noted on November 3, "the votes are just not going to be there."

However, there is one other number that has been the talk of the Net... and that's the number of "tallies" that might have been hacked or changed by somebody who left some nefarious "code" on the Windows systems tabulating the county by county vote. If that actually happened, it's not clear that a statewide recount would detect such a break-in as it affects "electronic voting" machines. But, given that 70% of Ohio used punch cards... most of the state does have a "paper trail." And the recount, when it happens, should settle these allegations once and for all.

Questions/comments: DShuster@MSNBC.com

>>
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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Who is this brilliant Matthew Fox ?
<< A brilliant e-mailer named Matthew Fox has analyzed which counties reported "spoiled ballots." And it does appear that approximately 60 pecent of all the spoiled ballots come from heavily Democratic urban areas.
>>
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chorti Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Another analysis of the spoiled ballots
60 percent come from the ten largest counties (population wise) and other counties that were proKerry (majority for Kerry). Please see my analysis:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/11/1704769.php
As well as this about Cuyahoga:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/11/1704733.php
Tim
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Very interesting. Thanks.
:hi:

Welcome to DU!
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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Thanks!
I am here to work for the cause, and admire the work that DU has done thus far...
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NJ_Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I'm scared of the "Once and for all" line...

Will it really prove to us "once and for all" that no fraud took place, if Ohio's recount turns out "against" us?

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. It might prove no detectable fraud occured in Ohio. But that doesn't mean
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 05:30 PM by mzmolly
NO fraud occured. Further, Florida is another matter. :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Love your username!
(Joementum my a**!)
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faithfull Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. KI-YA!
:donut:
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. Chads again?
I'm not sure how many voters in Ohio used punch cards, or what parts of the state they were used, but I did read that 70% of the precincts were using them. In Florida, I think the machine recounts typically increased the vote count, since more loose chads tended to fall off with each run.
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. All your prayers answered... (Sort of)
Go to www.verifiedvoter.org/verifier to find out who uses what equipment where - handy reference!
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Dolphyn Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. You mean http://www.verifiedvoting.org/verifier/
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Close enough right?
No wonder I can never find it when I want to look something up. I always end up googling for it.
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chorti Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Optical Scans may be most accurate in Ohio
I did a quick count of the possible mistake votes for the non-major candidates (Badnarik, Peroutka, etc.). Statewide in Ohio, 0.47 percent of voters voted for non-major candidates - about 26,000 votes. I am guessing that 1/3 to 1/2 of these were mistakes. Why?

When you look at the 13 counties that use Optical Scan, the non-Bush/non-Kerry vote amounted to 0.32%. In the 68 counties that used punch cards, the non-Bush/non-Kerry vote amounted to 0.47%. And worst of all, in the seven E-Touch voting counties, the non-Bush/non-Kerry vote amounted to 0.57%, including a very high 0.71% in Mahoning (Youngstown).

This probably wouldn't be corrected in a recount. But in some Cuyahoga counties, Peroutka and Badnarik received over 200 out of 500 votes. Obviously an error or fraud.
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chorti Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Punch Cards had the most "missing" Presidential votes
About 93,000 valid ballots in Ohio had no Presidential vote tally - either due to a protest vote, or human or machine error. One of the worst cases was in Hamilton County (Cincinnati) where 2.3 percent of all ballots had no tallied Presidential vote, over 9000 in all. See full analysis here:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/11/1704769.php

Counties with punch cards had the highest rate: 1.89%, compared to 1.49% in Optical Scan counties and only 0.76% in E-Touch counties. Hamilton (Cincinnati) and Cuyahoga (Cleveland) are among the counties that still used punch card.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
9. Great post! Welcome to DU. Below, reinforcement for Shuster.
Thanks for including the link. The new users are coming online with awesome posts. This is one of them.

letter to David Shuster DShuster@MSNBC.com


----------
Dear Mr. Shuster:

Thank you for being one of the few reporters (print/video) to actually report on voting issues. Voter disenfranchisement is a huge issue (I think 4+ hour lines to vote counts). If ballots were not counted properly or if there was any type of 'hacking' of vote tallies, you are on to the biggest story of our time.

Please stick with this. There is so much confusion and there are so many details, I think that this story will evolve over time. Some of the statistical analyses I've seen are intriguing initially. This type of work can't be done fully for some time but the results will be definitive.

The issues are (a) who won and (b) was there voter disenfranchisement? They are mutually exclusive. If there was systematic denial of voter rights through any means, it is vital to our future that this be resolved now and not after another chaotic election.

Thanks again,

(Me
Where I live)

BTW: You have probably seen this, but here is a BBC link. India was able to develop an excellent e-voting system that their many warring factions accepted. They did it in a reasonable amount of time. What kept the USA from doing that in the four years we had since 200? Maybe we sould outsource our e-voting to India!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3641419.stm
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ahimsa Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Do they have a paper trail?
Not clear from this link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3493474.stm

Doesn't look like it here:

http://www.bel-india.com/Website/StaticAsp/prod_niche4.htm

Is that really an excellent system?
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Whatever they have is better than what we have. Good point though.
My interest in their system is that everyone seems to accept it. Knowing something about Indian software developers, I'm sure there is a very logical method of dealing with verifiability. The real issue is acceptance, though. Indian political parties can be quite hostile toward each other yet they accept this system. In addition, the international folks seem to think it's pretty good.

I just want Shuster to keep going so whatever motivates his tush is fine with me. Send him a little praise and let's see what happens.

Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news.
Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.


http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

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