SOMEBODY needs to ask for HAND recount in FL where there is no paper trail

Here's why: they can't.

Where there is no papertrail, they can't do a hand recount, can they? And, unless it was changed from 2000, FL law allows candidates to request a hand recount (if I recall correctly). Therefore, by asking for a hand recount, even in just one of the counties that didn't have ANY papertrail, it will force the issue into the court, where the precedent set by the 2000 Supreme Court requires that all votes must be counted equally. And if there IS NO PAPER TRAIL, that isn't equal!

Does this sound like a good idea to anybody with a legal background? Because I don't have a legal background, so I may be off base here. But I do know if they are going to request this it darn better be done soon, because I'm pretty sure the deadlines are very soon. Even if it can't benefit Kerry, we need to do everything possible to get rid of any sort of voting system that provides no paper trail. We shouldn't wait until this happens all over again in 2008!

screw democracy, and screw counting.

If I'm not wrong, she has declared that paperless systems are not eligible for recounting.

I'd love to see it go to Court. I just don't have a lot of hopes for the outcome. But bring it on! I got the popcorn...

should be challenged in court. Because again, that violates (as I understand it) the precedent set by the Supreme Court in the earlier FL debacle.

I haven't given up on our country yet. I'm getting REALLY scared though.

They make 'em nice and corrupt down there.

but my mother voted by a touchscreen. I would be happy to challenge the results if someone is willing to tell me if I am able to and how to go about doing it.

I think someone posted something about the FL rules for recounts. Darn if I remember what thread though. I'm not sure if individuals can, or if it needs to be a candidate.

If that is the FL Secretary of State who said that, it sure seems to be that somebody ought to challenge that, or next election it will be even WORSE! Someone needs to get a court to declare non-papertrail systems illegal! And if they lose in the FL state courts, then take it to the Supreme Court, is what I say. We have to CHALLENGE this NOW! We can't wait for more studies, etc.

This is from spoogly (copied from a different thread)
<snip>
Florida Contest Statute

102.168 Contest of election.--

(1) Except as provided in s. 102.171, the certification of election or nomination of any person to office, or of the result on any question submitted by referendum, may be contested in the circuit court by any unsuccessful candidate for such office or nomination thereto or by any elector qualified to vote in the election related to such candidacy, or by any taxpayer, respectively.

(2) Such contestant shall file a complaint, together with the fees prescribed in chapter 28, with the clerk of the circuit court within 10 days after midnight of the date the last county canvassing board empowered to canvass the returns certifies the results of the election being contested.

(3) The complaint shall set forth the grounds on which the contestant intends to establish his or her right to such office or set aside the result of the election on a submitted referendum. The grounds for contesting an election under this section are:

(a) Misconduct, fraud, or corruption on the part of any election official or any member of the canvassing board sufficient to change or place in doubt the result of the election.

(b) Ineligibility of the successful candidate for the nomination or office in dispute.

(c) Receipt of a number of illegal votes or rejection of a number of legal votes sufficient to change or place in doubt the result of the election.

(d) Proof that any elector, election official, or canvassing board member was given or offered a bribe or reward in money, property, or any other thing of value for the purpose of procuring the successful candidate's nomination or election or determining the result on any question submitted by referendum.
_________________________

It appears from the above that an individual citizen CAN ask for a recount. AND it seems that it would be possible to do that on the basis of item "a" above, making the point that for an election official to purchase a voting system that provides NO paper trail IS misconduct. AND in court, with all that bbv has done, as well as others, it could be shown that the machines didn't have sufficient security, and without that security, it is impossible to know for sure WHAT the result of the vote might be (thus placing in doubt the result of the election, the other criteria under "a"). No doubt they will deny that this is sufficient, and refuse the request for the recount. But that is what APPEALS are for, and this could move up through the courts, couldn't it? It seems worth a try.

Again, I'm not well versed in legal things. This seems to need legal input.

considers the tape with the printout of the results that are filtered through the GEMS Diebold code as a paper trail for a recount. Imagine others, like Hood, are doing same. It's the Diebold way.

Still, I'd love to see this go to court and be disputed. The printout is nothing but a reprint of the results that are in question in the first place.

Our state bought this stupid ass explanation. I'm living in a state full of morons, led by Cruella D'ville.

Help!

printout in an audit. He/she would need to produce the original reciepts and other supporting documentation, if required.

<snip?
The printout is nothing but a reprint of the results that are in question in the first place.
You are so right! What do a bunch of numbers on a tape really mean, anyway.

I personally think the no paper trail issue is the biggest of all, because it is the potentially most dangerous if these machines aren't challenged RIGHT AWAY. At least with the optical scanners and others, there are physical ballots to check against the results.

What are the rules for recounts in GA? Busy for the next few months?

misconduct, fraud or corruption if they are following "the rules".

The rules don't include trashing original records--or as you say, the auditable receipts. This is the kind of proof that Bev has been gathering with the paper tape rolls. This is the basis for a challenge. She said she was going to discuss the basis for her audit and a recount in Volusia. We've been waiting to hear the results of that. Hood and her "canvassing board" certified results last Sunday. That means the deadline isn't up until 10 days from then.

If the electronic voting in and of itself were basis for a challenge, I'm pretty sure that some of the attorneys who were in Florida would have brought suit before now.

If on the one hand, the law says hand recounts are allowable, BUT on the other hand, people are making decisions that preclude any voter really getting a hand recount, then that's NOT following the rules. I think there is some legal term for this, but I'm not a legal sort, so I don't know it. The person(s) who purchased or authorized the non papertrail systems have in effect prevented voters from exercising their rights under FL law. Hence, the grounds for a lawsuit, as I see it.

The attorneys may be looking for other things. Or, who knows what's going on in FL. Maybe they just gave up.

Also, I read that Bev was not working on anything to do with a recount on one thread. And this approach would involve a formal request for a recount. I am confused about what is going on with Bev, but don't mean this to supercede what she is doing. Its just that as I understand it, nobody is focusing much on the counties that have these kinds of machines with no paper trail, because there is no way to check the vote there. And to me, this is the most dangerous part of all the problems that went on in this election.

Because, as has been pointed out, the tape has no independent status. An true audit requires an independent data stream, like an....um, exit poll...or a receipt. So if the law accepts these tapes as the equivalent of a paper ballot, then it is rubber stamping a precipitous decline in accountability, allowing an independent verification to be replaced by a downstream copy which originates in the black box. There has to be grounds for a lawsuit here.

& please correct me if I'm wrong, the Sunsine law in FL allows any who voted in the state to demand a recount and that the U.S. Constitution demands any election be eligible for recount.

So, this seems to me that any county which voted via paperless is illegal.

Lawyers, Floridians, please jump on this.