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OH punch card ballots: Who sells them, who orders them,

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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:34 AM
Original message
OH punch card ballots: Who sells them, who orders them,
who delivers them? Quality control: how do we know they are registered right, ie. do the perforations line up with the holes in the machines? Paper: what are the components that go into making them? Are all ballots exactly the same or could some ingredient be added to cause a higher percentage of undervotes?

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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good question
Kick!
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. Actually, that is an excellent question to ask...
Registration

The production of many newer die-cut items, such as some of the ones mentioned earlier, is possible only because high-precision diecutting systems are used (Figure 4). These devices, which can include sophisticated optical registration systems, adjust registration positioning at each press stroke in three axes (x, y, and theta or rotational axes). Such three-axis registration is able to deliver consistent accuracy within ± 0.005 inches. That precision, about two hairs' width, is about the smallest level that the human eye can gauge. An increasing number of products, including electroluminescent cell-phone panels, voting ballots, and casino playing cards, require such tight tolerances in cut-to-print registration.


Figure 4


<snip>
The key is in knowing when to use high-precision, optically registered diecutting to aid rotary diecutters and/or flatbed presses. Fancier die-cut features are a bit easier for precision systems, which are inherently well suited for kiss cutting, through cutting, creasing, and embossing. These systems actually cover the roll widths of rotary diecutters, as well as the narrower widths of jobs run on flatbed presses.

Now, just supposing someone were to make a batch with the "Kerry" hole only perfed on three sides, and saw to it that these "hanging chad specials" were delivered to Democratic precincts?
For the above result I googled "specialty printing" with "ballots"...I think those "spoiled" ballots need closer examination. How do we tell the counters?
You may be on to something here, Rosebud. :bounce:
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I thought of this because I knew that IF my name was Ken Blackwell
I had to have a Plan B. Ohio did not get the new voting machines they were going to buy in time for the 04 election.

I also knew from art classes how paper is made. Lots of things other than wood pulp could be thrown into the mix.

The ballots themselves may explain some of the funky results from Cuyahoga.

Anyone know Board of Elections personnel who may have some insight?
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. Believe it or not, the Louisiana ballot printing contract went to
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Who sold Ohio their ballots? Did Ken Blackwell order them?
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. IFES Buyer’s Guide to Election Suppliers
http://www.ifesbuyersguide.org/index.html

Selecting the right goods and services for election administration is a process that takes significant planning. The IFES Buyer’s Guide to Election Suppliers facilitates that process by highlighting a geographically diverse and capable set of companies focused on supplying election specific products.

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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Looks like ES&S does sell punch cards
http://www.ifesbuyersguide.org/detailtest.php?title=Equipment&subtitle=Eq_Voting_PunchCard

Headquartered in Omaha, Nebraska, the company has a customer base of over 2,100 jurisdictions in 48 states, Canada and several international locations. Delivering the industry's only integrated end-toned election management suite of solutions, ES&S hardware, software, and services support the entire election process to include local and statewide voter registration, ballot production, voting, vote tabulation, and results reporting.

ES&S did have all the punchcard contracts in urban Ohio coun ties such as Cuyahuga and Hamilton.
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Here's what I've found for Ohio so far, Rosebud...
From http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/equipment_ballot_os.html

§ 3505.13. Contract for printing ballots.

A contract for the printing of ballots involving a cost in excess of ten thousand dollars shall not be let until after five days' notice published once in a leading newspaper published in the county or upon notice given by mail by the board of elections, addressed to the responsible printing offices within the state. Except as otherwise provided in this section, each bid for such printing must be accompanied by a bond with at least two sureties, or a surety company, satisfactory to the board, in a sum double the amount of the bid, conditioned upon the faithful performance of the contract for such printing as is awarded and for the payment as damages by such bidder to the board of any excess of cost over the bid which it may be obliged to pay for such work by reason of the failure of the bidder to complete the contract. No bid unaccompanied by such bond shall be considered by the board. The board may, however, waive the requirement that each bid be accompanied by a bond if the cost of the contract is ten thousand dollars or less. The contract shall be let to the lowest responsible bidder in the state. All ballots shall be printed within the state.

§ 3505.14. Proofs of ballot.

After the letting of the contract for the printing of the ballots as provided in section 3505.13 of the Revised Code, the board of elections shall secure from the printer printed proofs of the ballot, and shall notify the chairman of the local executive committee of each party or group represented on the ballot by candidates or issues, and post such proofs in a public place in the office of the board for a period of at least twenty-four hours for inspection and correction of any errors appearing thereon. The board shall cause such proofs to be read with care and after correcting any errors shall return the corrected copy to the printer.

§ 3505.15. Packaging of ballots.

The board of elections shall make adequate provision for the inspection of the printing of the ballots. The person to whom the contract for printing the ballots is let shall seal them securely in packages, one package for each precinct in the county or civil division in which the election is to be held, place a paper cover over them, and indicate on such cover the number of ballots contained therein with a space to indicate the precinct, and deliver them to the board at such time and place as the board directs. The board, upon receiving such package, shall give a receipt for the ballots indicating the number of ballots in each package and the number of the precinct in each case.


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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. The contract shall be let to the lowest responsible bidder in the state.
All ballots shall be printed within the state.

So perhaps the contract went to:

Dayton Legal Blank, Inc.
875 Congress Park Drive
Dayton, OH 45459
U.S.A. Phone:
Fax:
Toll Free:
Internet:
<1> 937-435-4405
<1> 937-435-8352
800-262-8480
www.dlbinc.com


Sales Contact: David Keeler, Vice President (davekeeler@dlbinc.com) <1> 937-435-4405
Technical Contact: David Keeler, Vice President (davekeeler@dlbinc.com) <1> 937-435-4405
Description: Ballot printers, punch card frame assembly, voting booth resale and repair, printing of all election supplies and resale of all election equipment. AVM strip and print pack printing.
Election Experience: We print ballots and AVM strips for approximately 70 counties and 100 other municipalities in multiple states. These jurisdictions equal approximately 8000 precincts and 7 million registered voters.

Wonder if Mr. Keeler is a Bush supporter?

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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. DLB got the contract for "a number of counties" at any rate...
A Dayton company that prints ballots for a number of Ohio counties has advised elections directors to keep Nader on the ballot in case he files a challenge to get on the ballot.

"There's no way to put him back on if he gets reinstated," said Dave Keeler, president of Dayton Legal Blank. "Mr. Nader has had a successful track record of getting his name back on the ballot."

http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/news/state/9810765.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. and Akron has lots of dem precincts like Cleveland n/t
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Toledo also used dayton Legal Blank
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041002/NEWS09/410020352

While the four-member board was split Thursday over how to best handle a directive issued earlier this week by Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell advising county elections boards that Mr. Nader was not qualified to be a candidate for president in Ohio, it agreed unanimously on a course of action yesterday.

Its decision was complicated by the fact that its printing vendor, Dayton Legal Blank Inc., had already printed ballots for 149 of the county's 495 precincts - including Mr. Nader as a candidate on the ballots - when it got an order from the board Thursday to stop the presses.

Another urban dem area served by DLB

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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. More on DLB
The huge numbers of new registrations had many counties ordering additional punch-card ballots, said Dave Keeler, president of Dayton Legal Blank, which provides all punch-card ballots used in the state.

He said there had been some concern that there might not be enough ballots available. But, he said, an August re-order resolved the problem and the company now has hundreds of thousands of cards, which can be personalized for each county board and can even be delivered the day of the election if a county runs out.


http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily/1013ballots.html
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. I had just copied that to paste it here!
:toast:
I wonder which paper got it right? I'm guessing Dayton since they'd have better access to DLB but I wonder how we could confirm that?
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. Dave Keeler's dad Bob donated to Turner for Congress (GOP)
from www.tray.com...

Keeler, D. Robert
9/18/2002 $250.00
Dayton, OH 45459
Dayton Legal Blank Inc./Printer -
TURNER FOR CONGRESS

Keeler, D. Robert
4/25/2002 $250.00
Dayton, OH 45459
Dayton Legal Blank Inc./Printer -
TURNER FOR CONGRESS

Keeler, D. Robert Mr.
2/12/2002 $500.00
Centerville, OH 45459
Dayton Legal Blank Inc./President -
PRINTING INDUSTRIES OF AMERICA
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
6. That info would also be useful in case they attempt to coverup fraud...
with a NEW batch of "ballots" that add up to the posted figures.
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. KICK!
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Action Jackson Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. is this as amazing as i think it is?
I just skimmed quickly through this thread. I'm gonna read it again. Could this be another piece of the puzzle?
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. If you think of vote fraud as being a caper, like Oceans 11 or
The Italian Job, then you know you have to think like a crook. If I was Ken Blackwell or a crooked elections supervisor, what things could I implement to affect the outcome to favor my candidate? With punchcards spoilage is your best route becuase the punchcards themselves leave evidence that can be checked if the monkey business is in the tallying.
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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. there is a thread somewhere says ballots heavier in Dem precincts
not as easy to read on card reader. Where is the thread???
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. The only way to know if that is true is forensic investigation
Paper is made out of wood pulp. Numerous ingredients could be added to the mix to make some perforated ballots harder to punch. Any CSI types on DU?

Alternately the die cut perforations could be off register.
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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. blackwell also tried to refuse registrations on light weight paper
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. If that's indeed true that would be a "smoking gun"...
...because for states that I have found contracts for the paper weight is specified, and for precision die-cutting it'd be an absolute necessity in order to get the same depth of perforation throughout the press run.
Since there's a strong possibility the same company did the entire state of Ohio differing weights on the cardstock would be either criminal stupidity or just plain criminal, IMO.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. It probably would not be as obvious as paper weight
More likely it would be an added ingredient such as nylon. Or off register die cutting.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. you are so right rosebud....
Edited on Sat Nov-20-04 12:37 PM by leftchick
This must be Ken's plan B! Did you see this thread where the newspaper political reporter for the Plain Dealer in Ohio said the punchcards would not be counted?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=65625&mesg_id=65625
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Spoilage fraud is easy to hide unless the ballots themselves are analysed
forensically.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. The problem is only a lawyer could probaly get hold of the evidence
to have it tested.
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