Quick Question -- Anyone find it overwhelming?

I was reading through the forums tonight...

about the 9/11 information
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=66380&mesg_id=66396&page=

about the Jeff Fisher information
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=66214&mesg_id=66214

and about all the evidence (hard or soft) of election fraud, voting irregularities, etc.

Does anyone find this all a bit overwhelming?
Anyone wish to take a guess and how all these stories might coexist and interact with one another?
Anyone think it makes us seem all the more "tin-foil-hat-wearing" bloggers?

Like the budget deficit cap, I feel like I've reached my limit on the amount of this I can absorb and not want to jump off a bridge (kidding of course)!

Anyone?

ok, that's 2 words. so sue me.

But we have too if wer want to get things back on track. Cons have an advaantage, they can be stupid and uninformed and let thier hink tanks worry about this stuff. They can let others be in control becuase ignorance is bliss to them. They won. why should they care about HOW they won.

We can't do that. So what can you do?

take a breather and come back to it later if need be.

The shitty weather and long lines also factored here, stresses the arguement for making Election Day a holiday.

ex: 2 voting machines, 500 people in line for them; provisional ballots etc.

The stories really exist. To save your sanity, though, don't believe anything without solid proof....

For some of this, it may be unlikely to EVER get solid proof. Hell, we still don't have solid proof (IMO, anyway, along with a BUNCH of other DUers way smarter and more knowledgeable than I) of who killed Kennedy.

If you wait for "solid proof" before understanding what has REALLY gone on in U.S. history for the last century, you will likely never fully "get it" about where we are now and what our real threats are.

I find it is all those things, which is why I probably am not as fully involved as I should be and want to be. I get especially concerned when some of the different information seems not to be in accord with the rest. For instance, the recounts in NH and Oh are both proceeding w/ no real change, seems that has been the results so far. To me this suggests that either we are being overly tinfoil hat, or that more likely- the recounts are not honest, just as the original counts were not. If this is the case, I wonder why we are wasting millions of dollars doing recounts. I think one of my biggest frustrations is that we obviously have a huge movement forming. Yet we place our faith in those who aren't really on our side completely. I'll include the democratic party in that list. It is obvious imo, just from the fact that it took Nader and the Greens to call for the recount in the first place. I am tired of making excuses for these status quo democrats. They are constantly asking us for donations, but when we need a back up, they are out the door. The other frustration for me is that we oftentimes jump onto these giant projects, then later find out we got ripped off by the republicans, or that we were spinning our wheels when there were more effective strategies we could have gone for. I am not saying that focussing on voting fraud is a waste of time, I don't think that at all. But I seriously think we need more organization and focus as a movement, so that we can decide on actions that will be effective, and we will see the good results.
As far as your question though, it is way too much information on the voting stuff for me to digest. I find myself tuning it out and getting back to it later. Maybe not being that mathematical. dunno.

...I think that there was fraud on a large scale - not huge numbers, it didn't have to be - but enough. They have covered their tracks, and probably did so before the first vote was even cast. I haven't given up hope, but I am discouraged.

However... I have a serious gnawing bug up my ass that I can't get rid of, LOL. I think that, following the results of all the recounts, and the inauguration of whoever is inaugurated in January, that we should seriously concentrate on sweeping election reform to prevent fraud and voter suppression in future elections. One thing I've concluded: whether fraud in this election can be proven is almost beside the point; the REAL story here was the massive voter suppression, and it was THAT that swung the election Bush's way just as effectively as 5000 votes here or 10,000 votes there. And I'm furious. I don't know if a citizen's movement in this day and age could really work. The Civil Rights and Women's Rights movements had a great impact and changed history. Yet here we are, in the year 2004, and it was the shadow of Jim Crow that influenced the election (and women are still underpaid).

I hope that a serious hard-fisted tireless aggressive push for reform is the consequence of these recounts, and I want to be involved when that time comes.

and think it is natural to feel a little discouraged right about now. We have been fighting so hard, yet are losing ground. I think you are right that the voter suppression is equally big- maybe more so in the sense that it is provable. If we spent a little time collecting all of these instances of v suppression and took legal action where possible- that would certainly put it in public view- and likely be successful as well. I mean, when you are dealing with so many fudged numbers, a little here there and everywhere- and as you say, they've no doubt had this set up in advance. It is very difficult to prove, not impossible, but- the voter suppression is more concrete. Sure, it is infuriating that they are using racist tactics. I like the way you say "in the shadow of Jim Crow," it does seem like that. I also agree that we do need a
"serious hard-fisted tireless aggressive push for reform" and hope we can get that.

...of voter suppression and putting it into some visually impressive format, LOL. It may take weeks - I've got some pressing things to do first that I should be doing! - but I'll do it. I've got a burning anger about this that isn't going to just fizzle out. The video of the voters in line waiting to vote and refusing to leave tears my heart out. One big guy in Ohio, African-American, said cheerily and defiantly (I'm paraphrasing), "it may rain, it may be cold, and they may make me wait forever, but I'm not leaving - George Bush can't make me leave, I came here to vote and I'M GOING TO VOTE." Made me cry. I'll never forget that, and I'll keep that image right in front of my face for as long as I need inspiration.

It has a very good list of all the problems on election day. It is votersunite.org/electionproblems. I can't get it to enter as a link.

...I've been nabbing articles off of there! The best part about it is that all the incidents are documented.

Here's the site I've been keeping, with links to most of the articles I've read: http://shadowbox.i8.com//stolen.htm

Votersunite.org is great.

Chili - I had not seen yours before -- excellent site, and nicely organized. Thank you!

I'm glad that it's helpful!

Thank you for sharing that. Makes my heart ache, too, on several levels.

. . . waited as long as it took to get to vote. That we are NOT going to abandon them.

And how great that you have it, and- your idea sounds awesome. It makes sense to me that, hey, it is too easy for our attention deficit amurican public to zone out most of the voter suppression if they just hear about it briefly. I mean, if they even hear about it at all. But if they do, it still will be an overload for most, because we are being bombarded with disinfo from all angles. Your idea would be a very effective one to implement, I think. It would supply a face and a voice to the suppression, and make it real to people. I wish you well, once you do have some time to get into it, I mean.:)

Recounts in NH and OH are proceeding with no real change? We've only received ONE report from the NH recounts involving just a couple hundred votes. There haven't yet been ANY recounts in OH. Aren't you jumping the gun here?

I am looking on the count so far, just on this board. It probably is too early to call.

like dying sparks after a fireworks display. There is nothing solid and growing to immediately educate our humble US media and press. Many well meaning poster(like myself) can blunder through and add smoke to the fire
but nothing much is happening unless a state by state and further breakdown is made. Then it looks very disorganized in various states of formulation. Wild and intense accusations can't be satisfied. People draw wrong and wishful conclusions. The prejudices of the brainwashed cannot be swayed by the details presented in this fashion.

Suddenly, thanks to keeping us with their story submerged, we are on the defensive without anyone getting with us on the picture. Now this process is really behind the propaganda and laboring hard. By definition, unaccountable paperless machines can't be proven. NO one gets the major point that is EXACTLY what is wrong regardless of results. if only they would lead with that, but some progress is slowly being made there. No one got the point in 2000 that Bush stole Florida and that Gore won if the votes and intentions of the voters were ever fairly let surface. NEVER spoken in the media. Just the win or lose horse race, no matter who cheated.

Unenforced laws simply do not impress the horse race crowd. Sure the race is fixed. Figure out how and place your bets.

One face should fight the media, but the other should doggedly continue to get at the truth. I do not see tinfoil, only us amateurs
trying to pick something from this mess to shove in their faces and say AHA! Some ideas are genuinely important since the damned computers have so many possibilities for misuse. That does not mean all methods were used or everywhere to the max. Then Bush would have Saddam's 100% mandate.

when you think about what an uproar Watergate caused and here the threat and the reality of what we have seen is so much more serious, yet so few in the media have really even taken a serious look at it. I can't believe they are all so complacent. It's no wonder we are feeling overwhelmed. We are doing what we can with whatever power we have. Imagine where we would be without DU!

It took quite a while before it all finally came out.

And as for overwhelmed, tonight I threw away five weeks of (mostly) unread newspapers, because I haven't had the time to read them, I've been so wrapped up in all this stuff. Several Sunday papers from weeks gone by hadn't even been OPENED! LOL That is really pitiful.

There is just too much information and its too difficult, it seems, to wade through all of it to get to the nuggets that one might feel are meaningful. At least that is my take on it. And last night I got just so worn out that I couldn't fall asleep (that sounds odd, I realize, but it happened).

I just would so much like to see some action and then some sort of resolution of SOMETHING!

The entertainment value alone is worth the price of admission.

Anyone wish to take a guess and how all these stories might coexist and interact with one another?

It could be seen by some as wishful thinking on a massive scale.

Anyone think it makes us seem all the more "tin-foil-hat-wearing" bloggers?

It all depends on your point of view.

You place an awfully high value on entertainment when you consider what it is we're actually paying with. Mainly human life.

I recommend it.

http://www.subgenius.com

results in nothing ever changing. Can't imagine where womens rights or racial equality would be today with that take on things. I don't agree that we have no control, though I will admit it does feel that way right now. I can't give up hope though. That's just me.

I believe that after initial visceral reactions to events are over our emotions are largely chosen.

I see a lot of people on this board so wrapped up with their anger over the apparent election results and hatred of the opposition that they seem stuck in that stage of the grieving process. That state of mind does not lend itself to effective behaviors. We have people here trying to shoulder the burden of life vs. death over this election, or at least they think they are. IMO that kind of thinking, fueled by a parade of statistical "proof" of systematic fraud ranging from half-baked to sophomoric, leads to a near certainty of failure.

This is modern warfare. People who react out of anger in war make small inroads then ultimately get stomped by an enemy who has resoved to treat it all like a big game. Each of us has personal styles and ranges of choice in how to feel about things. Mine involves more thinking and less shouting when things get really tough. It's a personal decision - I know for myself that when I go overboard in asserting my position I sometimes become ineffective. My physical health starts to deteriorate and I make bad decisions. Also I have hypertension and have been counseled by medical doctors to keep cool.

We're not going to win over the hearts and minds of America by having a tantrum over this election.

Doesn't mean you have to bring the others down with you.

And for the record, I see not before me anyone in this room throwing a tantrum...

:eyes:

I don't believe I did.

And for the record, I see not before me anyone in this room throwing a tantrum...

It's calmed down since the week after the election, but the undercurrent of panic and desperation is still there IMO.

Unless of course you see no reason to care that Bush stole another election and is gonna ruin our country for another 4 years.....

Speaking for myself I see them as counterproductive emotional baggage.

If you need to feel panicky or desperate in order to be motivated to act appropriately, more power to you.

:toast:

But if you need to feel self-righteous, self-serving, and superior to others much like the right wingers usually come off (no not an accusation) in order to have something to say in the threads then more power to you as well.....

:toast:

Would presume to lecture someone else about self-righteousness.

:dunce:

Reality Calls it as it Sees it. And you might want to be reminded of the board rules, you may find these posts (mine included) deleted shortly since they offer nothing of any substance to anybody.

...if you don't try? As you see, I have problems in this area! ;)

Start with evengelical groups.

It's the only explanation. The rethugs are doing anything and everything for personal gain, regardless of consequences.

It's sad that the media is complicit. Without the media, all we have is the legal system.

Take comfort in the fact that you're not alone....the "tin foil hat" reality based community is EVERYWHERE!

All of this info will eventually break into mainstream consciousness, and the republican party will never recover from this one. I just hope it doesn't take too long.

I read about the mandatory mental health screening and treatment for all school age children, and then last night the tax return provision in the budget and I swear I have to go to work to relax. It's exhausting, depressing, discouraging hard work to keep up with all of this and keep the letters flying to congress on all the issues, but we lead the battle and just have to take a break when we can.

The other day I read these headlines on Yahoo: 1) Powell saying the exact same thing about Iran that he said about Iraq; and 2) "second" mad cow case. I just burst out in hysterical laughter. It was like, well, I guess I was right and things really are falling apart. The center cannot hold. The falcon cannot hear the falconer. We're through the looking glass here, people.

As someone who has proudly worn a tinfoil hat for several years now, I can say without the least bit of irony or doubt that ya'll don't even *know* nutty conspiracy theories. What you're talking about is in no way nutty or "out there" or crazy or whatever. *I* may be nutty, but you guys aren't, I guarantee it.

You're just correct.

I hope that they pay big time for refusing, to cover this srory at all ! Now there are some exceptions (not any I can think of) however for the most part this is a ono issuse that they are not even bringing up ! My Brother who strongly supported Kerry, gave me a look of disbelief when I told him the election was stolen. With the media basically ignoring this , I dont mean to be negative ,however I just dont see how we change any minds, most people have moved on ,figure the election is over and bush was the winner. Ecept for here at D/U and a few other web sites ,where is the outrage . Evenb when it was topping the daily news we could not get the real winner in the White House, with noone paying attension ,it appears nothing will change and we have to put up with monkey face ,four more years. Very ,very depressing, Oh how I wish ,its proven Kerry won ,beyond a reasonable doubt !

This is an excellent website that list all the election problems with details.
Also I think it took a while for MSM to get going on Watergate, it started with a trickle of info and just kept building up steam.
We can do it again, but we need leadership and this is where the DNC or some other powerful group should step up.

in the White House. Backed up by assorted "powerful think tanks" feeding disinformation constantly to the the MSM to keep us agitated, fearful and off guard.

"We" have to become the "powerful group" and hope that somewhere out there there will be someone who is as disgusted as we are who will work behind the scenes to push our information forward.

Surely we aren't alone! But, no help will be forthcoming from the DNC/DLC who have aided what we have in the White House today.

There are too many ties which if exposed would show what our government has been doing through the decades and many powerful Democrats would be caught up in the net.

Still, I believe we have such a disaster we must hope that we have help.

There is only hope and hard work to keep exposing them.

If DU and everyone rallied behind them, maybe we could have some sort of cohesion as a group. it just seems to me we need some kind of leadership, to coordinate all the ideas and info. Sort of like the Kerry/Edwards campaign did with the grassroots movement to get out the vote. For all the good that did! Anyway it was a powerful movement because we all worked together behind one group.

Movement. That's where I am right now...not with the DNC/DCC/DLC. The "traditional Democratic Party with it's Lobbyists, Political Hacks, Hangers On, etc...is DEAD to ME...

Even people that were fighting on our side before the "election" are writing about acceptance and healing and how we're all nutcases for believing the "election" was rigged.

I don't understand how, prior to 11/2/04, so many intelligent, educated people could see that BushCo would stop at nothing to get what they wanted now suddenly have trouble believing that BushCo would be capable of rigging an election.

Most of it may be true, or it may not. Ignore it for the moment. Keep your eye on the ball:

Was there election fraud? Where and how? Can we prove it?

If we can answer that, everything else should fall into place. If we can't, and the election was rigged, we have zero chance of doing anything about it. If the election wasn't rigged, there will be time later to look into other problems...

-- MarkusQ

Regarding the Jeff Fisher 'tall tales', I believe a pinch of skepticism is quite healthy.
I am quietly confident however that the truth will surface, and John Kerry will be our duly elected President.
O8)

We already know of the coup in 2000, the fraud, corporate media complicity etc. The truth already did surface long ago. What are you expecting a signed affidavit and video tape confession from Bush on all of it?

So true what the say about the frog in boiling water

I have lived through the lies of the Kennedy Assassination, Vietnam, Watergate, Iran-Contra, the war in Iraq, our overthrowing of governments in South America and in the Middle East, etc.. this seems just to be, business as usual. Well, not quite. I honestly believe that if this election is not reversed, we might never have another.

This is perhaps the most important issue in history, and our last last chance to save what is left of this country. BushCo is going to finish us off in two more years, or less. If the rest of the world decides to help, I hope they come to our aid faster than we did theirs in World Wars I and II.

I worry that the J. Fisher thing either comes from a nut case or is a plant to make the rest of us sound like nut cases for believing it. It needs to be investigated by pros; the rest of us need to leave it alone.

Otherwise . . . I've got three issues, possibly for the remainder of my life: (1) public education (esp. reading and critical thinking); (2) rollback of consolidation of media ownership, or some kind of remedy for same; and (3) election integrity.

If we don't get those 3 things, we don't get democracy, and I don't believe we even get progress in general, in any meangful way.

Combined protest against Fox and the rigged election —

The objective is specifically to challenge the wall of silence on the rigged election by news outlets like Fox and make a breakthrough —

Please spread this around, check it out and kick it —

A blogger has posted an extremely detailed, specific call to protest the rigged election AND the suppression of the truth ABOUT the rigged election by Fox News — a combined event mass march protest to be held in New York City — AT — Fox headquarters on 6th Avenue —

Main protest chant —

“Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!”

Nobody thinks of marching against a news organization in the streets. This is going to be a shot heard round the world.

Very comprehensive protest plan with very helpful travel details, the works —

See blog on this,

“A Call To March On Fox —

For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election!” —

http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/

Discussion thread in General Discussion Forum — please help keep this kicked —

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2688242

“A Call To March Against The Rigged Election”

Please spread these links around to help us organize this.

Please join that discussion there and help keep it kicked. Marching on Fox starts at post 117. But read the whole discussion. And read the blog. Discussion also discusses an earlier blog on marching against the rigged election and media. Second blog being discussed is on a specific, detailed call to march on Fox specifically as a key initial part of this protest against the rigged election. Fox is a key ENABLER of the rigged election. They’d never get away with election rigging on such a vast scale if it weren’t for news suppressers/distorters like Fox. Read both blogs.

Tremendously detailed comprehensive blog —

It gives the exact location in New York City of all of Rupert Murdoch’s empire, New York Post, Fox News, News Corporation (Murdoch’s big parent company — it owns almost everything else he’s got) — all of that — it’s all in a single building on 6th Avenue between 47th Street and 48th Street in mid-Manhattan. Murdoch’s own office is in the building too. We can be chanting against him right outside his window. All their offices are not on very high floors either — as low as the second floor — they’ll see and hear us and have to pass us on the way in. All those blow-hard Fox talking heads lying about the election — we’ll be in direct shouting matches with them as they come and go. And Fox itself is on the SECOND Floor. How good is their studio soundproofing in there????? Everybody at Fox is going to be bitching that they can’t get any work done. There’s no way they can hush this up.

Since it’s a vicious circle — news organizations like Fox suppress our protests, making them seem futile, therefore the proposal is to combine objectives and protest Fox AND the rigged election TOGETHER right outside Murdoch’s building and tie the two evils together — “Murdoch suppresses the truth about the rigged election!” — and invite other New York news organizations, many of whom DETEST Murdoch, to cover it. (You didn’t know New York news people and news executives hate Murdoch? Blog goes into that a lot.)

Blog has many links to anti-Murdoch resources and video of Bill O’Reilly telling everybody to shut up, shut up, shut up, over and over. What a sewer rat! Right on camera! He looks really mean and drunk in one of the film clips. Jack Daniels? And he’s on camera hotly lecturing us, “It is our duty as all loyal Americans to shut up.” The video nails him good — and Fox. Blog gives other video links too.

Tired of being told to shut your trap? Open it. March against Fox and the rigged election in New York City.

But the idea is to put it all together, to protest and denounce Fox outside their offices for leading the COVER-UP of the election heist. It’s a shot across the bow to the rest of the media that they better start telling the truth about the election, or they’ll get protests like the one at Fox. All the national news media are based in Manhattan. They can’t say this protest was too out of the way to get to.

Blog also has links to downloadable anti-Fox flyers, petitions and other resources against Fox that could be distributed at the protest march.

Blog goes into tremendous detail about the strategy, the advantages of starting protests in New York as opposed to other cities (huge liberal population would augment people coming from out of town), and it’s the news media capital of the world. Very friendly terrain. New York Democratic congressmen are demanding investigation of the stolen election. No rednecks in the population or the government, no paranoid security apparatus like you have in D.C.

Blog includes complete “mother lode” total orientation guide to using New York subways with downloadable maps you can enlarge, how to use mass transit to get from Amtrak’s Penn Station to the march, how to use mass transit to get from the airports to the march.

Let’s make it happen!

Keep kicking that thread so everyone will hear of this!