INVITATION: Let's Think Tank Election / Voting Reform

Earlier this evening I had a chance (finally) to talk to hedda-foil by phone (Joan of Help America Recount www.helpamericarecount.org and the National Ballot Integrity Project www.ballotintegrity.org/ ) and while she is nuts-crazy busy right now, we chatted briefly about the need, when/if things calm down, for some group or organization (perhaps hers) to get involved and craft some Model Legislation for states to adopt around the country.

Right now there are a mish mash of laws -- it might or might not be possible to get national laws (unlikely, at least at this point), but we can certainly work at the state level everywhere to get Model Legislation implemented.

If we had Model Legislation. And we don't.

The first thing, then, is to start thinking and talking about what kinds of provisions we would ideally like to see enacted.

Here are a few things from my Voting Law Wish List:

1. MUCH stronger teeth in all state laws against vote fraud and vote suppression -- strong enough to make the laws and penalties actual deterrents, not a slap on the wrist.

2. Probably better definitions for what constitutes vote fraud and vote suppression.

3. Sufficient time between election and deadline to ask for recounts -- right now (it varies by state), but it can be just a few days. As we've seen from this election (as well as 2000 and IMO even 2002), it can take a week or even two to dig up sufficient information to even know there's a problem. GA actually reduced its timeline since the 2002 election. :-( I think this is all the more important -- and should be apparent -- with the introduction of sophisticated technology.

4. Laws that enable and even force courts and judges to take a more pro-active stance re election issues. Some of our anti-voting machine suits have been thrown out because the laws simply didn't adequately support what we were asking for (which were usually only along the lines of "counting every vote" without undue error or some such).

Which brings me to:

5. Right to Vote Constitutional Amendment. I think such an Amendment would put legislatures on notice everywhere, put courts and judges on notice, AND empower individuals who are negatively affected by vote suppression and riggable voting machines.

One of the key things I learned from the 2000 Election fiasco was tht every vote DOES count (and should, obviously), AND that our vote is sacred. We need everyone in power to understand that as well: WE WANT OUR VOTES COUNTED, each and every one of them. No more throwing absentee ballots out without being counted if the election isn't close. No more vote suppression ANYwhere, EVER. No more fun and games with the voting machines not counting votes -- if it takes the kind of redundancy that goes into space missions, then that's what it takes. AND the COST is just what it costs, not something that can be used as an excuse not to do it right.

6. And of course, we also need some very specific, crystal-clear laws that guard against computerized voting machine problems and vulnerabilities. That might include a requirement for open-source software, and other provisions.

7. Hedda mentioned maybe we need to move Election Day earlier -- and I think that would be a good idea also to give the new President more time to pull together staff, cabinet, appointees, etc. so they can be more functional on Jan. 20.

8. Make Election Day a national holiday, everyone gets the day off. NO ONE gets disenfranchised because of long lines and work requirements. No one.

9. I'm personally not very comfortable with either mail-in voting (Oregon), absentee and provisional voting, only because at the moment the potential for fraud here is immense. If we fix the potential for abuse (e.g., MUCH stricter penalties or MUCH better auditing), these methods of voting might be more acceptable to me.

10. Find ways to ensure that all voters know their rights. Not a great idea, but I'll toss it out anyway -- maybe have them take a small class when they register -- so they know that if they've been wrongfully removed from the voter registration rolls they have the RIGHT to a provisional ballot. So they know that policemen aren't allowed in polling places (at least that's the law in some states). So they know who can challenge them as voters and who can't, and what they can do if challenged, etc. And how much ID they're required to show. Or, in addition or instead of a class, send a list of their rights -- ALL of them -- with their voter registration card.

Okay so what are YOUR ideas about how to craft Model Legislation for voting and elections?

and every voter has voted--all the way to Hawaii. There is no reason we can't wait a little longer before they call the whole election.

Uniform laws for voting procedures and registration.

Of course, paper trail for every machine.

I also don't like centralized uploads of data.

You covered the rest...

NONE. PERIOD.

Check ballots against recorded tallies at each precinct. Sign off on results. Secure all physical evidence and transport to the central elections office for further tallying. If data must be recorded to consolidate for state totals, enter in one, secured (non-networked) database. Check all results output against physical records for each precinct/county. Complete transparency to public scrutiny and checking.

Oh, and get rid of THESE people:

http://www.ifesbuyersguide.com/browse.php?Type=v

It's too easy now for someone to throw away Democratic registration forms and not get caught. In some states you can just scribble your name as the "witness" when registering someone, with no other info. If you had to list your own contact info on the form, with perhaps a thumbprint or driver's license #, you'd be much less apt to trash those forms and risk having them found. If a political party hires people to register voters, the party should have some legal responsibility of those registrations get trashed.

require equal percentages in all precincts of voting machines based on the number of registered voters in that precinct.

Get rid of all voting machines. Go back to paper ballots, hand-counted at precincts with witnesses from media and ALL major parties. Prohibit any transporting or counting of ballots by outside interests or obviously partisan groups. If it takes days to get a final count, that's a small price to pay for Democracy.
Absolutely positively no use of voting machines made by companies with executives, owners, or programmers convicted of felonies, especially those related to politics. No voting machines from partisan hacks, either.

If voters receive intimidating letters (ie, you can't vote if you have parking tickets, etc), run a DNA test on the letter and envelope, then match it against a national DNA database. Have stiff penalties for anyone caught doing this.

Pass laws to eliminate stonewalling of recounts and investigations after an election. Make it easier, not harder, to check for voting problems. No changing the rules after the fact, like the Ohio Secretary of State keeps doing. Jail time for the creeps who try this stuff. Make it easy to subpoena records for any person or company involved in questionable results. Wouldn't we all like to see Diebold's records--and for that matter, the NRC's?

Allow same-day registration at any polling place, provided you can show proof of residency. This allows people who recently moved to be sure their votes will count. Provisional ballots have been nightmares, since so many weren't even counted.

Have financial or criminal penalties for voting officials who repeatedly screw up. How many times has Florida "lost" absentee ballots by sending them out too late?

Assign every voter a number. After the election, have results posted on the Internet or at the registrar's office, providing a way for voters to look up their number and make sure their vote was correctly recorded. Each voter should received a duplicate copy of their ballot with their choices marked, upon request.

Fix problems for Americans overseas. This election, the US shut down a website that's normally used by American civilians overseas who want to request absentee ballots, so many of them couldn't vote.

...and I forgot about who registers voters... that's a big one. Cut out the middle man completely, even those who've helped Democrats greatly. Cut them OUT of the loop. That doesn't mean we don't GOTV, it means we do it and guide them to some official site or location or method of registering directly with the state. We must eliminate the Sprouls and the ACORNS, even if it means sacrificing the great work of MoveOn and the NAACP and all the other groups who worked so hard this election. We can still have the same massive grassroots efforts, we just stop physically handling the registration forms and are uninvolved with the registration process.

And I like the "assign every voter a number" idea - how about SS number? This must be a private and secure process, right, checking on your vote? Therefore, we should be able to log onto some site, type in our SS#, and see that our vote counted and who we voted for.

Bev Harris posted this morning on the need for legislation to stop voting officials from stonewalling on handing over records until deadlines pass. Check it out--she had some specific suggestions.

Miriam

Kick this. This is all we hoped for this is what the world needs tied up in a bow. For the holiday this is what the world needs now. entire world Peace. Kick this if you ever thought you were free. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...2&mesg_id=79652

Kick this every chance you get least you wine up kicking the damn thing for ever. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...2&mesg_id=79652

Kick this. this is the one little bit of information that can save the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...2&mesg_id=79652

I may have bargained a solid argument to avoid getting stuck in this damn contraption.

...but unfortunately, I don't know the law. Someone on another thread mentioned the need for schools to bring mandatory civics classes back into the curriculum. I couldn't agree more. I do remember taking Government 101 in high school in my senior year - my goof-off year - hated it, was bored with it, passed it with a D- because I couldn't wait to graduate, LOL. Wish I'd paid more attention now. Knowledge is wasted on the young (sometimes!) But literature about voter's rights can be sent out with each voter registration card (not all states even have these, Ohio does) prior to the election, with enough time left for them to act on it.

Anyway, in answer to your points:

(1) State laws against fraud and voter suppression. Aren't these federal laws, and therefore trump states laws? Or is my sleeping in my Government class, when I showed up for class, showing? And if they're not federal laws, they should be.

(2) definition of voter fraud and voter suppression: right; state-sponsored voter suppression (like what went on in Ohio 2 weeks ago) I would've thought would be unheard of in this century - I'm a spoiled naive kid of the 70's, so I'm shocked to see us return to the pre-Voting Act days of the South.

(3) Time for post-election recounts. I saw a time span of 60 days somewhere for a state - I think that's a good time period. It certainly shouldn't be unlimited, what chaos... but 60 days gives time for certification of votes, investigations, and recounts.

(4) Courts taking an active role. Oh boy... with the courts stacked with Bush appointees for the foreseeable future, I see little hope of this...

(8) Make Election Day a holiday. This is essential, and makes so much common sense that it'll probably never happen, but we should try to MAKE it happen. Make it a one day holiday - a Friday - and stretch voting into 2 days. In other words, people get the day off to vote on Friday, but if the lines are long they can vote on Saturday too. I think (because of what I'm going to say later, LOL) that one day is not enough time for 200 million people to vote.

(9) Mail-in, Absentee, Provisional voting. I agree, but see no way around the absentee voting. As for provisioinals, if it's done right, they won't be needed... though I can't imagine even the best-laid plans will be flawless. They should be kept as last-resorts.

Further: STANDARDS. Nationwide. What would this require, a law, a constitutional amendment? Again, I'm weak at any knowledge of the law (shame on me), but there should be, set down in stone, for every state, county, ward / precinct:

(a) STANDARD method of voting nationwide, preferably paper, but certainly verifiable.

(b) STANDARD registration procedures and forms

(c) STANDARD criteria for determining the eligibility of a voter.

(d) STANDARD means of counting votes cast in every election

(e) STANDARD means for a person who feels they've been disenfranchised to have they're complaints addressed

(f) STANDARD means of counting absentee and provisional ballots

(g) STANDARDS governing the counting of votes, especially oversight committees or panels, bipartisan, with media present

(h) STANDARD provision governing election challenges and recounts

How will this be paid for? LOL... well, hell, repeal those damn tax cuts. And just imagine all the JOBS this would create.

I didn't include 5,6,or 7 because I wasn't sure how I feel about it or don't know enough to comment.

...my head hurts.

That is, of course, what we need. They will, of course, cry "states rights".

Which means they won't be able to suppress and manipulate on a local level. No, there won't be any reform. Not as long as the current system benefits Republicans anyway.

...for the very reason you said.

But we can try. And keep trying. It may not get passed until we again control both houses and the WH too. But we can set the groundwork, perfect the language. Might not happen until after we're all dead and gone, but we can try. Having made that depressing concession, I'm still FIRED UP about it.

...I listed the idea that voter registration has to be better controlled, taken out of the hands of the Sprouls out there... but the real ideal would be that every voter would automatically be registered to vote. Not mandatory voting, that will never fly... but automatic registration on a person's 18th birtday could work. If we tie checking your vote to your SS#, why not registration too? Why not have a card, issued by the Department of Elections (okay, we said federal level, didn't we? LOL... bureaucracy at its finest!) issued to every citizen, and mailed to every young person 6 months prior to their 18th birthday. That card would have a strip, just like an ATM card - renewable, like an ATM card, before every election (or every 2 years). We'd go to the polls with our card, run our card through the card reader, and vote... on paper. It's not perfect, all the problems inherent with having cards would come into play: lost cards, stolen cards, fake cards. Perhaps it may be necessary to include a form of ID, like your driver's licencse (or for those without a license, a phone bill or medical ID for the elderly). But it's certainly a lot better than what we have today.

Here are 8 things it would take, at a minimum, for me to feel like there is a BASIS for confidence in the legitimacy of US elections:

1) all private corporations are divested of ownership in election machines, and
2) clean money laws keep all corporate funds out of campaign financing, and
3) any future mechanisms for voting conform to a uniform national standard and produce a verifiable audit trail for every vote, and
4) all votes are cast on the same day, designated as a national holiday, with the exception of absentee ballots which will be granted to applicants meeting a narrow list of federally determined criteria, and
5) all votes are counted publicly in the presence of citizen witnesses and credentialed members of the media, and
6) equal time provisions are observed by the media along with a measurable increase in local, public control of the airwaves, and
7) presidential debates contain a minimum of three candidates, and are run by a non-partisan commission comprised of representatives of publicly owned media outlets, and
8) ranked choice voting, also called instant runoff voting, is implemented for federal elections

These items come from the No Confidence Resolution currently being presented for consideration at City Councils.

This would prevent busloads of activist Dems from going to swing states to help get out the vote on election day, and also make it harder for people to work at polling places other than their own.

Also, a lot of elderly and disabled people, or those who don't drive, or have a car in the shop, or final exams, or young kids with no childcare, or are immune compromised, all lhave good reasons for not getting to the polls on Election Day. There are probably a zillion others. They should be able to vote early or via absentee ballot, since these folks might not vote at all otherwise.

paper TRAILS.

Why? Because "ballot" has a legal meaning; trail doesen't. "Ballot" means that it's what we used to cast a vote; trail isn't. "Ballot" can be used in a recount; "trail" is an audit tool -- an important prcess (auditing), but it doesn't necessarily work or mean recounts.

In Georgia, for example, even if we had a "paper trail," it wouldn't serve us in recounts unless we got the law changed because our illustrious legislators made the "electronic vote" the only legal vote. :wtf:

Also, from a framing the debate standpoint, "ballot" has a lot more meaning and import for everyday people than "paper trail" does. It immediately conveys something something more crucial and vital than a mere paper "trail" and its use conveys the issue that we don't have a paper ballot now and therefore our votes are at risk.

Great ideas, everyone. Keep 'em coming.

I'll start refering to them as ballots.

(I started a separate thread with this suggestion, and realized it made perfect sense in this one)

Concerned Democratics should put the DNC on notice: we will leave the party unless it makes a firm commitment to finance it's own exit polls in the 2006 election and beyond.

Look at it this way - many Democrats feel that:

1. The 2000 Presidential election was stolen through corruption and dishonesty in Florida and the US Supreme Court

2. There is strong evidence of fraud in the 2002 elections, such as the defeat of Max Cleland by an upstart

3. The 2004 elections have been conducted using unreliable and untraceable equipment and processes. Fraud has definitely occured, but the degree of fraud and whether it is responsible for the re-selection of George Walker Bushitler may never be proven.

4. The 2004 exit polls were outsourced by the major networks under a $10 million contract. They were not intended to serve as a a check against fraud (in spite of intent, they strongly suggest fraud has occured). The conduct of this exit poll and the release of data is governed by a contract negotiated by the networks. It is very likely that rather than fix this problem, the conduct of exit polls and release of data in future elections will be even more restricted.

5. Democrats contributed hundreds of millions of dollars directly to the Kerry campaign, and perhaps a total of 1 billion overall to this election. Besides the money, Democrats have an even greater stake in having fair elections: having a decent foreign and domestic policies.

6. Regardless of the mistakes made in the past, if the Democratic party does not wake up now and take corrective action, it will prove that it has been corrupted and emasculated, without a shadow of a doubt. Let's face it: financing our own exit polls is an insurance policy that costs 1/1000 of our the investment in the election, and 1/1000,000,000 of our investment in a democratic society. (Note that the DNC can contract with a consortium of independent pollsters to conduct exit polls, and provide for extensive audit and reviews, to ensure that it's results cannot be questioned)

7. If this mistake occurs again, it is no longer a "mistake", and I will leave the Democratic Party.

8. If others agree, I suggest we make this clear NOW to the DNC, and insist that they make this commitment NOW. There are enough of us to ensure that without our support, no Democratic candidate will have a prayer of winning enough votes in the future and/or have them counted fairly.

exit polls are THE way the rest of the world determines the validity of the actual election SEE UKRAINE

(did God provide us with the example of Ukraine at the same time as our election????!!!!!!)

are listed even if they are uncontested with an option for a write in candidate

Surely we're not all "thought out" on the subject?

:evilgrin:

Our own(the people's, certified, non-partisan, whatever) exit polling. Even better. an alternate vote by mail to the regular election as a protest and as a check against the state results. While your state smarm does Diebold, with the voter lists a reliable bi-partisan counting house with better accountability and openness can do Oregon only better. Some thought of phones, but that would be more incomplete, even threatening and able to be subverted.

I say this because you will NOT get state compliance in places dominated by thieves. As long as the Dems place all their hopes in the HAVA sieve, a patch here or there will solve little and too late.

Aggressive coalition(beyond party or persuasion) for information and action. Aggressive methods to pry loose the election monopoly from the state, pollsters and media.

Stop and think. We are running uphill against people who oppose reform and combat any thought on the subject. Appealing to their illegitimacy directly must be done but perhaps we should end run, encompass and spit out the truth. The numbers are cooked. The brains of the public are fried. The power is usurped. Everything is played off against the other to enable the fraud to thrive. Privacy thwarts openness. Openness is met with intimidation and fear. All old methods co-exist with new, more comfortable large scale theft.

Also, the whole world is weary of the onslaught and surrendering too, whether they know it or not. Diebold and its fellow gang members is the preferred bloodless slick tool of the RW and dictators world wide. It is connected to controlling interests beyond their borders and against their interests. MORE should be done to wake up tolerant UN and "less" democratic nations lulled to sleep by those who intend to stifle that pesky popular vote. I am thinking of Canada, Brazil, Europe, the onslaught of American "democratization" across the Muslim world. Venezuela, Spain are recent converts to awareness.
Maybe a lot of Dem leaders think this is a benign form of controlled tyranny or controlled democracy. it has proven to be anything but the case. Always it favors cannibal capitalism, nut groups, powerless fringes, outright thievery, and the same old tiresome and stupid ambitious goons who have made human civilization a dismal slaughterhouse of failure. Think global.

Throw up the lines of defense NOW against the sleeper ONLINE VOTING. The perversion of cheating spreads in all directions. the cionfidence game has to be broken as all such games. With arrests. Public exposure.

Pen and paper, no computers of any kind for the short term. Any computerized system should meet the following standards at the bare minimum.

1. Fully open source, no corporate input of any kind.
2. Undergo serious academic-style peer review.
3. Use a real database, PostgreSQL comes to mind.
4. Makes use of proven, strong encryption.
5. Impossible to "log in", locally or remotely.
6. No USB, serial, ethernet, PCMCIA, or Firewire ports.
7. Case design that is impossible to compromise.
8. RAID for data integrity.

When it comes to tabulating everything, do it under video cameras, and require removal of the hard drive. Whatever "server" it goes into should have the above specifications as well.

Obviously, these are a few points that I just came up with, but what I am getting it is that designing an honest voting system is "hard work". I'm a software engineer and I could write voting software in no time, it is really just addition or true/false. The real problems lie in the security and authentication.

There are a few open source voting projects out there, hopefully one will rise up and be a viable contender.

It is ridiculous that when it comes to money we know to the penny but voting is designed in a way that every recount gives different results. I wouldn't be employed if a system I designed gave different results each time it was used.

Maybe voting can be done in triplicate? One official ballot, one ballot "receipt" for the voter and...what else? :)

2 or 3 pieces of papers attached (the one to be counted would be a harder ballot-type of paper) - and you get to keep an actual carbon copy of your vote.

:thumbsup:

Even if we can't establish National Standards, we can hopefully start with the results of the GAO report and go from there. The next step should be Congressional Hearings on the subject. What went on in Ohio was obscene. If that isn't a wakeup call for substantial Election Reform I don't know what is. You and others have presented some excellent items in this thread but they will never see the light of day unless the discussion begins outside the confines of the internet.

The ends need to justify the means, and the main end should be voter confidence. This crosses both party lines. Imagine if the Democrats put a Bill up called "The Voter Confidence Bill" with many of the points in this thread included in it. The Republicans would, of course, vote it down....but it would then give the Democrats a little campaign ammo of their own. ie The "Patriot" Act, the "Partial Birth" Abortion Ban, etc, etc. If you catch my drift...

I have some more meat for this thread but I'm tired, and I need to go "blank-out" for awhile.

Hey, and you thought I wasn't on your side? It was always the "F" word that got my blood pressure going up. We also need real CFR in this country (another thread). That South Dakota Senate race should be a poster child for CFR.

political donations to go toward maintenance of the election system, whether it be voting machines or poll workers or voter education. funds to be adminstered by a committee of citizans, non-partisan (don't ask me how to get that together!).

Paper ballots that are feed into two consecutive Optical scan machines designed and administered by a federal elections board for all national offices....President, Senate, House.

random by drawing (drawing for audit precints to be done AFTER polls are closed on Election day.)

First, consider scrapping registration altogether. I learned recently that in many other countries registration is not required. If not scrapped altogether, we should have a national database that serves as a clearinghouse for changing registrations between states and counties. Voter roles in this country are not as well maintained as they should be and that is another potential source of fraud. Also, consider mandatory election day registration. I for one feel that a photo ID should be used when voting. I know there is a lot of controversy about this but it would really cut down on the possibility of fraud. I would like to see this linked to state driver's licenses/ID cards or freebie cards from BOE offices for people who have neither of the others. Everyone would receive a PIN number that they would use just like the ATM machine. On election day, people would go to their polling place and they would slide their card into the machine and enter their pin number. You could even potentially do away with precincts altogether if the machines were either on a closed, secure network or the votes had some identifier number on them. That way, when votes are tabulated, it could ensure that duplicate votes are disregarded. When your vote is entered, two receipts print out, one for yourself and one for the records. One is dropped into the ballot box for potential paper ballot recounts while the other is retained by you. Each vote could be associated to your voter ID number or each vote could have a unique random number on your receipt that could later allow you to verify your vote was recorded as cast on the internet or via telephone. If at all possible, I think the whole system should be built on open source code that can be fully vetted by independent computer experts. I also think that transmittal of data over phone lines or the internet should be avoided. The machines should use memory devices that have unique serial numbers on them which are recorded at the beginning and end of each election day. This would provide an audit later to ensure memory cards were not swapped. And even if they were, eagle-eyed voters confirming their votes later would identify the offending precinct and the paper ballots could be consulted. (I would also make the paper ballots have bar codes encoding the votes so a speedy machine count could be performed in cases of machine malfunctions in the memory cards.) I agree that a 1% recount of the paper ballots as mandated currently in California I believe should be performed in every election as a verification of the results. I agree that election day should be considered to be moved to a holiday or weekend day to prevent disenfranchisement of those who have to work during the week. However, I feel that early voting may be a better all around solution because no matter when you move the election day - there will always be someone that will need to work on that day. Absentee and mail voting, while potential sources of fraud, will likely be necessary for the foreseeable future to accommodate the elderly or disabled. My preference would be to see as many of those people as possible accommodated by early voting with an honest evaluation of an internet or phone voting system. This system could be isolated from the central tabulation system and be secured and audited with different standards. Another thought is that perhaps people should be mailed confirmations when their absentee ballots are received. This would ensure that if someone fraudulently voted for someone else, that someone would receive the verification and could notify the proper authorities of the fraud.

Excellent thread!

I want to address the all-by-mail or all-absentee voting issue.

I am in Oregon and have worked with election data as a campaign manager or volunteer and also as a Dem party officer.

I think we lost something in Oregon when we switched to all Absentee voting, did away with polling places, and consolidated numerous precincts in the rural areas into large diverse precincts that had no specific identity anymore.

That "something" that we lost was our sense of community -- neighbors coming together to exercise a civic responsibility and privilege, the right to vote to choose our leaders at all levels and to help decide issues of community concern.

Along that same vein, I want to say that I am very opposed to the use of electronics in the voting process; tabulating at the county level is a different story. (more on that later)

The initial count of the ballots should take place right there at the precinct beginning immediately after the polls close. Ideally, I would like to see citizen volunteers doing the counting with appropriate observers from all involved political parties and one or two media representatives. The citizen volunteers can include such people as a respected minister, responsible high school students, the well-liked man who owns the corner drug store, a teacher, a legal secretary, the cashier at the movie theater -- ordinary local people doing their civic thing. (great exposure for the high school students!).

Care must be taken that the total number of ballots agrees with the number of signatures in the poll book (the only difference I can think of is someone who signed in and then changed his mind about voting). The results should be posted on the door for anyone to look at. These results should be reported to the County, but the ballots should be locked up and retained with the poll book in case a recount is required. The reports will not include the overseas votes or military or other absentee votes for that precinct of course, but those are differences everyone understands. If there are any Provisional votes, those should be counted separately and the results posted separately on the door.

Outside of the cities, most precincts are relatively small. Even with Oregon's high turnouts (sumthin' we're pretty proud of!) the number voting in any one precinct would run 400 to 700 voters, maybe occasionally as many as 1000. That many ballots can be counted twice in a relatively short time if it is well organized -- maybe 1 to 3 hours, not an all night affair. If there are lots and lots of ballot measures, counting those could wait for the next day if necessary.

I am a great believer in the KISS principal -- keep it simple, stupid -- as well as a believer in doing all we can to enhance people's sense of community.

I also happen to be a retired accountant; clearly traceable batch controls (no. of poll book signatures, no. of ballots counted, the vote counts at the originating location, not later) are essential for audit control. Disseminating the results to media and interested voters at the same time the results go to the county is also an important protection. These are FAR more important than all the fancy electronics connected to the black box. Besides, this way election workers are not left fussing with equipment they don't understand, and they can actually do their jobs in a professional way.

The procedure for any group doing registration should be:

1. Must have a list of names, addresses, and signatures. Kept on file or even sent to the state election office. The group doing the registration becomes directly responsible.
2. Carbon copy registration. Signed with group name.
3. Carbon copy to person who gets registered and even a carbon copy for the group. If we even had them numbered, that would be further control over the registration process.

I still say mail-in. I moved to Oregon from a regular voting state, so I've done both. But, Oregon doesn't have hundreds of precincts, we've got ONE county location where real live ballots are counted. No uploads and tabulators all over the place. Much less opportunity for fraud. And if everybody in the country was on the same page, much less chance of voting errors as well. We could generate an automatic mail card once somebody's ballot is received as well. I bet it would still be cheaper than all these touch-screen machines. Four Billion Dollars, and nothing has improved.

EVERY state should have the same equipment and regulations for National elections.

Kerry has said he is taking up this issue too BTW. :hi:

great ideas .sorry I don't have any input right now(my brain is not awake yet

First I would suggest that once a set of ideas has been compiled from this, that individual discussion threads be done to flesh out pros and cons - for example, id cards or ss numbers tied to ballots - these need full debates before they are made part of a "campaign"...

Now, here are some points I haven't seen yet:

1. separating out national/state office with initiatives, judges, amendments, etc
One problem with voting day is that other than the few national level races, and perhaps a couple of state level races, the ballot is cluttered with state and local initiatives, amendments, judgeships, and other local elected offices that really have nothing to do with "Election Day" as defined by the Founding Fathers. These other things could be handled on a separate day...

2. poll watchers
Many issues arose (Ohio in particular) regarding poll watchers - how many from each party assigned to specific precincts - this might fall under voter fraud and intimidation, but is probably an issue that should be treated separately. I believe poll watchers have a place, but there needs to be strict guidelines for their fair use.

3. early voting
The need for this ties into a couple of other suggestions - national holiday and voting machine/precinct registration ratios specifically, but I still think that early voting should be available and mandatory.

4. pr for this whole thing (mentioned earlier a la patriot act)
"Selling" this to the public is going to require circumventing a LOT of money and vested interests by both politicians and corporations. It's going to have to be something that is 1) simple to explain, in 2) patriotic terms, that 3) anyone who doesn't agree with can easily be cast as a traitor, communist, etc. I do not exaggerate the last point because it will be done to the people proposing this (it already has - ask Bev), and we will need to get the upper hand in the "who is more patriotic" discussion.

First of all there needs to be a set national standard for per capita distribution of voting machines so that every citizen has equal access to the right to vote.

I also think that there needs to be a single system for casting and tallying votes nationwide instead of this state to state crazy quilt that we have now. I don't mind the touch screen machines as long as they have a verifiable paper trail. When you make a purchase with a credit card the machine generates a two layer slip. You keep one copy. The merchant keeps the other. The actual transactions are handled electronically, of course, but both the consumer and the merchant have a verifiable paper record.

You could do the same thing with electronic voting easily. You make your selections with a touch screen and then a printout with two copies is generated. You get to keep one. The other copy goes into a secure ballot box. If the results don't seem to jive then you can crack open the ballot boxes and do a hand recount.

Finally, partisan officials should simply not be in charge of elections. Every state should have a non-partisan "elections czar". Politics belong in the campaign, not the election. You wouldn't trust a baseball game if the home plate umpire was wearing the ballcap for one of the teams. Why should we trust elections that are run by officials who campaign for the candidates involved?

They should NOT be allowed to be state campaign chairmen - we saw this with Katherine Harris in Florida and now Blackwell in Ohio. This should simply NOT BE PERMITTED.

They, plus the left can seal this deal of getting a democracy based on one person one vote again.

Why moderate republicans? Because they will never have a chance at holding any real power in either the gov't or the GOP party as long as the extremists in the GOP control the vote. While the moderates may not recognize it now, we *have* to bring them on board with clear communication because it *is* in their self-interest.

I think that each voter should have a receipt or print-out that shows what he / she voted for. I realize that's the whole point of this thread, but it's interesting to me that I didn't get a copy of my paper ballot. Hmmmmm.

of your vote that you can keep for yourself.

actually, you should be able to keep the original - the election officials get the copy, on hard stock paper.

Seems to me a paper receipt or ballot copy given to the voter would prove that you voted, but not that vote was actually tabulated correctly.

A receipt might help in the case of a total loss of votes due to error, but I can't see how it helps otherwise. Enlighten me if there is other thinking on this...it's so easy to lose receipts. Why bother?

I'd rather see a more secure centralized system. It's clear that we need independently verified elections. Also the best exit polling we can get.

I think e-voting has failed the test at this point. We have made a bad system worse by introducing these things far too soon. Scrap them now, and rethink this whole thing.

For one thing, the people running the elections do not have adequate computer skills, and letting people who work for the vendors set up and service machines during the election period, as we have seen occurred widely--is absolutely inexcusable.

..in the "good old days" receipts could be used for buying votes and for pressuring people (employees, wives) to vote in a certain way.

What we need are voter verified paper ballots, that create an auditable paper record of the original voters' votes.

I don't like Iowa always choosing our representative. No offense to Iowans, but holding caucuses / primaries at different dates disenfranchises voters. At least it feels that way to me. I'm in California and I've never had a say in who represents me. It pisses me off. :mad:

It's the same way people feel about 1) electoral votes and 2) the news media calling the election before everyone has had a chance to vote.

This election is not over. We have the laws we have and must fight for the integrity of this election in our courts of law, in the court of public opinion, and in the halls of congress.

Finish this battle before shifting focus to "how to fix it" questions.

Standard vote recounts aren't what we need. You can't count votes that were not cast because discriminatory barriers prevented them from being cast.

We must demand comprehensive audits. In every state. A comprehensive audit means spot checks where registration, signatures in poll books, etc., are validated against real people. Show me the voter! The people who were prevented from voting by long lines and other barriers are voters to and their votes must be accounted for.

It's the racism, stupid!

And it's unlawful.

In a true America, leaders serve only with the consent of the governed, and that consent must be obtained by lawful, fair, and open elections that accurately measure the will of the voters. We shall not tolerate any violation of this fundamental principle, the SOLE moral tenet on which our nation was founded and has since relied.

A long wait is a defacto poll tax (time is money) -- a very steep poll tax. If the poll-tax-lines and other barriers to voting are correlated with racial, socio-economic, or partisan status, they are discriminatory. It doesn't matter why the lines occurred. Only the findings of unacceptable barriers, disparately applied, matter. The results of a discriminatory election are unacceptable. Period.

The assertion that the election is over and we can doing nothing but "fix it next time" is as absurd as the assertion that a driver cannot be given a ticket for running a red light because "the light was back there. It's over."

And the assertion that a large margin of victory puts the election "outside the zone of litigation," is also absurd. If you accept that notion, then you accept the notion that a state in which the margin of victory is large is free to discriminate with no risk of consequence. This is an ridiculous position. No matter what the margin of victory, the results of a discriminatory election are unacceptable.

We MUST draw the line! We cannot continue to tolerate the intolerable. We cannot continue to tolerate the toleration of the intolerable.

We the People, through our representatives, have set out our election laws to ensure that election results reflect OUR will. Our law is intended to serve our will, not thwart it.

IF WE ARE UNABLE to get the remedies required to ensure the integrity of the election in the courts, through civil and/or criminal judicial means, then we MUST RESORT to a political solution and demand that our Congress reject the electors from ANY STATE that fails to validate its results through comprehensive, apolitical investigation and audit.

We can never again allow a "technical" or "legal" arguments and rationalizations to trump reality as we did in 2000.

NEVER AGAIN.

The We the People Do Not Concede declaration

JPEG Flyer (wedemandscrollparch.jpg) at http://unioncountyfordemocracy.org/files

Talking points

of, I'd like to see #1 Verifiable voting by citizens, not corporations (and all that implies) and #2 Approval Voting and/or IRV or other forms of voting that will break the stranglehold that the two major parties have which is killing us, stifling debate and making the better organized and funded Republicans and righties the permanent ruling party. See this link for info on approval voting:
http://bcn.boulder.co.us/government/approvalvote/center.html

and this thing gets archived

:kick:

After reading through the EIRS, this is what strikes me as neccessary (and a lot of the above stuff is needed too.) This is off the cuff, so probably there are some better solutions and I'm not attached to any of it, so butcher away. (e.g. G is a bit tacky because it requires the voter to reveal information about their vote. An alternative might be to say, if you can't validate it at the poll, you have to hand-count any overvotes/undervotes discovered in that batch later during the machine count, in the presence of witnesses. And 2 involves a whole lot of people jammed into the space if you get the worst-case scenario where noone will waive.)

Laws must make allowments for independent observers to be able to determine beyond any doubt that each stage of the electoral process is carried out without the potential for fraud:

A) All records of purchase, maintainance, and disposal of machines are to be publicly posted.

B) Thorough pre-election tests of all voting machines to be used, with the ballot-lines as they will apear on election day, after which the machines are to be zeroed and fitted with a legally binding seal and kept in a physically secure restricted access facility. Observers will be allowed to participate in the tests and must be allowed viewing of the machine until the seal is applied. Observerd must receive a signed affidavit containing the machine serial numbers etc. and the ballot-line configuration, as verified to be currently installed on the machine.

C) Reforms to current laws about polling place observers as needed.

1) Observers may be present when seals are broken, and machines are zeroed (yes, a second time) before the polls open, then resealed. Observers are alloted half an hour to view the ballot-line installed on the machine, the serial numbers etc. and compare it with their affidavit.

2) Polling places must be evaluated each election to ensure that they can fit one observer and one challenger from each party on the ticket, plus each independent candidate or ballot question, and one unaffiliated independent observer, minus any seats waived by parties prior to the election (e.g. two minor parties agree to share one observer.) Waivers of the right to observers filed by parties will be confidential information which the clerk is legally bound not to release to ... ehem... third parties (in the legal sense.) If the precinct cannot fullfill these qualifications, the state must set a date by which to construct new facilities or arrange for mobile units. (laws about poll access and allottment beyond the scope of this.) Polling places must provide emergency lighting and 2 hours worth of uninterruptable power supply for machines.

3) Polling observers are to be allowed to check the current raw vote count every hour, stopping traffic if needed for up to 5 minutes, and compare it with the sign-in sheet totals. Any inconsistancies will result in a careful scrutiny of the machines for the next hour. Any machines found to skip counters must be observed if not taken out of commission, and votes not counted must be allowed to be recast. Machines must be taken out of service if there is any reason to believe that votes may register despite a stuck counter.

4) Replacement poll observers are allowed to enter the premisis one at a time and the replacement observer and the one they are replacing may both be in the facility for up to 10 minutes.

5) Poll observers are to be allowed uninterrupted viewing of the machines between poll closing and tally collection. The only exception to this is to be states of emergency, during which poll observers will be allowed to turn on any recording equipment they deem neccessary to provide a visual-only record of the machines during the emergency. (Any such equipment must be rapidly deployed or pre-deployed, and must be visibly disabled when not in use, e.g. using a hood or throw-cloth.)

D) Entry of machine totals into a central tabulation unit may not occur until 30 minutes after those machine totals have been publicly posted (see G). A log giving the time of entry and vote totals of each machine total is to be posted publicly, and kept up to date every 30 minutes.

E) All party challengers must address the same voter at the same time, with a poll-worker/judge present. Challenges are limited to 5 minutes at which point the judge must rule. Challengers are required to preprocess the queue of voters up to 20 persons deep, or to the door of the polling place, whichever is larger. After the challengers pass a voter, that voter cannot be challenged again unless they leave the queue and return, and will be allowed to vote as long as the poll workers find them to be eligible.

F) All ballots to be counted by machine must be validated for overvotes/undervotes and the number of overvotes/undervotes confirmed with the voter at the poll. If machinery to do this malfunctions, the ballot must be numbered, and the voter given a signed affidavit containing the number of the ballot. Provisions must be made whereby said voter may verify that the ballot was valid when counted by machine. Any voter owning an affidavit for a ballot which was rejected will be allowed to file a post-election ammendment to the ballot specifying the correct vote to be applied to any overvoted/undervoted race.

G) All preliminary totals, tallies, and logs are to be posted publicly within 30 minutes of issuance of the affidavits to observers.

H) Criminal penalties for election fraud should be stiffened, with the exception that charges for instances involving a very small number of votes/signatures/registrations should not be unreasonably harsh.

I) Extra copies of the voter enrollment lists, one per party and one per independent candidate, are to be provided to observers, and may be given to advocates working outside the legal distance from the polling location, such that they can pre-validate voters. Such workers are to clearly label themselves as to which party/candidate they represent, so as to prevent them from giving opposing voters the runaround. Observers may stop the voting process for a maximum of five minutes at the opening of the poll, or once every two hours, at the top of the hour thereafter, to go outside and take or distribute the enrollment lists to/from their advocates. During this period observers may engage recording equipment as per C5)

J) Visual recording equipment may be set up by observers on a permanant basis, and left running, as long as that equipment is prevented from recording voters.

One thing though that bugs me -- any laws we pass will be set upon by the machine manufactureres to make a buck. You know they will charge the cash cow of government out the ear for each and every feature addition.

Here's an old-fashioned American concept that once grabbed the attention of the British. They weren't too keen on The Stamp Act and responded with "no taxation without representation." How about: "If you insist on stealing elections, lowering taxes on the wealthiest Americans, invading a nation on false pretenses, ignoring countless experts' advice on how to rebuild that nation, making us the world's super-bully by entering cities and slaughtering anyone who moves (or even, sometimes, those lying maimed and motionless), throwing away the lives of over 1300 brave young soldiers (so far), and psychologically and physically scarring those who survive the hell we've sent them into, then we won't pay for your 'shock and awe' or your body bags."

The problem:
By 2006, there will be:

100% electronic voting (HAVA mandated)

+ no paper trail, etc (the way things are going, unless we make this a grassroots, bipartisan issue)

+ no, or at least delayed exit polls (which can (have?) be tampered with)

= a minimum of five more Dem Senators will lose their seats

= no more filibuster (the last shred of the balance of power)

= no more American Democracy for ANYONE permanently.


The solution (minimum):
- verifiable paper trail

- random vote audits

- open source code

Optional (but highly desirable):

- consistent election rules across all States


THIS IS NOT A PARTISAN ISSUE - THIS IS A DEMOCRACY SURVIVAL ISSUE!

If this doesn't happen by 2006, money (and corporate power/control) will be the only thing that matters anymore. So even those that voted for Bush had better spread the word before its too late.

Do you think the neocon/ corporate interests will give a damn about what even the religious right thinks anymore? Why would they? NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO VERIFY THE VOTE ANYMORE! No reform candidate will ever be able to change it, since there is no way they can win, no matter how many people actually vote for them.

The neocon/ corporate interests won't need anyone. Only their interests will matter. (Don't forget, Fox really started the "sleaze TV" movement. Money (greed) will always trump "social values" - you can count on that.)

This is why EVERYONE (including conservatives) must fight the battle for the 2004 election now (it's our best chance to draw attention to the issue). Or no one will pay attention to what needs to be done BEFORE the 2006 election.


<This message was written by a "true independent", that has supported Independents, Democrats AND Republicans over the years; and wants a viable, multi-party system to continue.>

that 100% electronic voting. You're right, of course, and I had NEVER thought of it quite that way, thanks to HAVA. Aiiiiiiiey.

This is a common misconception which is, unfortunately, disseminated by election officials that would prefer electronic DRE voting as they perceive it to be easier for their staff and cheaper for their taxpayers. What they don't recognize are the security risks.

HAVA mandates disability accessible systems, not DREs. Period. DRE's are not the only disability accessible devices. Optical scan ballots, which provide a voter verified paper trail, can be used in conjunction with ballot reading and marking devices that actually provide a greater spectrum of accessibility tools than the DRE's alone do.

This is a talking point that we really need to talk up. We are making good inroads on educating people to use the phrase "voter verified paper ballots" (not calling it an audit trail or paper trail), this is the next myth we need to bust.

How we should run elections...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=107646#110845