Reality Check: Ballots were fixed as well.... poll books and polling tapes

may not be yet.

1. Fix the vote on computers on election night.
2. Fix the actual ballots later that night or the next few days.
3. Fix polling tapes after that.
4. Fix polling books.


There now it is traceless. Using the computers allowed them to change the ballots quickly. All they needed to do was pre-fill out a few thousand ballots for each candidate per non-touchscreen county. They for every thousand extra added to Bush, your people would throw in a pack. NOT HARD.

We have to realize that if they fixed the computers, they would promptly fix the actual ballots shortly after. The polling tapes might get overlooked, but the poll books would be much harder to fake. I say that the recounts are pointless without the polling books or poll tapes.

Edit: Clarification,

I think that recounts will show that they ballots reflect the vote recorded on election night. Two main reasons:

1. Why fix just the computer total when you could fix both. Fixing the computer just gives you time to fix the ballots after election night.

2. When the woman in Volusia was accused of fraud, she immediately said, "Well, fine, just recount the ballots and see for yourself." smugly. She is way too confident about the recount in Volusia. She must have fixed the ballots already. However, as we have seen, she did not fix the polling tapes yet. I don't think she had fully fixed the poll books either.

Edit more:
3. Miami Herald did a recount in 3 counties in Florida and found no significant change.

Why wouldn't they do the same thing in Ohio they did in Florida?

Don't get me wrong, I woke up in a cold sweat last night after screaming at my republican brother in law at Thanksgiving dinner - and got on DU at 3am for my fix.

But changing ballots by the thousands -- surely there would be some democrats around to catch wind of this? No?

democratic voting precints to have an area assembly and have them vote by paper ballot just to see if they do indeed for Kerry or Bush? Of course the votes wouldn't be valid, but wouldn't it give a better idea of how the vote actually went on Nov. 2?

If you are saying that the polling books/tapes things have been changed, then how could any recount be valid?
And for them to have physically added ballots at potentially thousands of precincts, that would require a huge number of people involved, a risk not likely taken...
Am I totally missing your point?

cause as long as they have the names and proven registrations of the felons who cannot vote, then they can use the names cause the felons will never check. Suspicions of this are not proven, but have been raised in Florida and Missouri


My posts have been disappearing, I don't know why, but I am going to copy this one in case it disappears too.

which was really wierd I was told because we don't prevent felons who have served their time from voting in this state.

Can prisoners vote? What about people in jail? I wonder if the felon list included those currently serving.

FWIW

despite the garbage picking hyperbolic disgruntled Democrats who formed a garbage picking brigade to prove fraud that was casually put into the garbage bags by those trying to cover up fraud.

Forget Florida.

The action is in Ohio and the most reputable people are in Ohio trying their best to do something--and it does NOT entail picking through the garbage of a polling office.

a demand of a recount without any of the main players participating, is silly and null and what has happened in Florida anyhow? Some people picking through garbage outside of a polling office as if they had discovered gold in it, and this was supposed to be the great big ,absolute proof of fraud in Florida and as it turns out, there is NONE proved at all.

Amateur, hysterical and publicity seeking detectives without any backing at all and it looks like a clown filled circus, which does not help

the action is in Ohio, and if KErry does not come out, personally in support, it also, imho, is not going anywhere even though those who are there are credentialed and have some credibility.

Does anyone know what time Bush was in Ohio on Nov 2?

There were blank ballots in the trash bag with the authentic polling tapes.

What do you think they were using the blank ballots for?

They were filling them out, of course, to match the numbers!

They need to be finderprinted.

adding fake ballots? There would have to be thousands and thousands of people involved, hands on, for that to be the case. Do you seriously think that is what happened?

They only needed a few people per county per day to fix every county they wanted.

IT ISN'T THAT HARD.

Certainly not as hard as programming the program so that it doesn't mess up.

I read the article at the link below:

http://www.votefraud.org/how_a_private_company_counts_our_votes.htm

I've been thinking that if a private company is controlling the count, the votes on the computers can be fixed there, and the ballots can be fixed at the county office later. Only a few people at the county office need to be involved.

Archive them? Paper the office with them?

Precincts have to return them to the central elections office for the county. There, in principle, they verify that none have been stolen; if they don't do that, they're still left with the final step.

Throwing them away. In the trash.

A hypothesis has to be falsifiable.

but who owns the company that makes the ballots?

I still think that most counties had a few votes padded for Bush that were never stuffed with ballots later. Too risky to have that many people in the know and too much geography for a small number of people to cover. If there were a hand recount they'd make sure not enough counties were counted for people to see the pattern - and it would be so small of a pad to Bush that the MSM would spin it to nothing (you know an AP report that says they were counted and the votes were "virtually" the same, the local paper would just take it at headline value without analyzing it).

Only some targetted counties would have done the full blown changing of votes, changing of ballots, changing of poll tapes and poll books. Either trusted locals (like Volusia) or posing Homeland Security folks who break in without a trace. I think they'd have to have access to ballots, tapes, poll books (how to forge that many signatures???), and the machines to reconfigure them - right?
Are these all in one place? How are they secured?

I think Florida is just as important as Ohio because it may show the modis operandi (check those poll books! get fingerprints on the ballots! make sure the evidence isn't tampered with).

The sheets should be in the order printed and any irregularities should remain repeated.

Do not the poll workers count the number of voters at each location? In MI each request for ballot is numbered so I always can know how many people voted before me. Adding more should be traceable.

Go here:
http://www.kpft.org/

This is exactly what I've been saying in several previous posts.

The stakes are too high here not to cover one's tracks completely. If just a recount could prove fraud, that would not be a very good operation at all, since recounts would have been known to be a distinct possibility based on the suspicions raised by the exit polls.

The paper trails, all of them, would have been "fixed" in any kind of professional operation. Rove's minions are evil, not stupid.

If this is true, the only hope we really have of proving anything, besides finding a whistleblower, is if there is some way of proving the physical (as opposed to electronic) manipulation that would have taken place. I do believe that this is possible, but we would need complete and unfettered access to all physical evidence, and this is not likely to happen.

We may have witnessed the perfect crime here. Just my two cents.

unless we can turn some solid evidence its just like abu gharib without the pictures, nowhere.

together and fix the election system so that there is equal rights.

Even if we're only talking about a few states, this would still take alot of people--several different people in a number of different precincts. If that massive of a coverup has or is taking place, that means there are alot of people out there who could talk.

Ballots are numbers and sequential and can be matched to the actual rolls. Adding "thousands" of ballots would be practically impossible, especially since precincts are generally very small (less than a thousand voters registered in each). Each precinct has a set of the total (sequential) ballots. For this to work you would have to add a small number of ballots to each precinct, numbered with the next ballot after those actually cast, and you would have to dummy the rolls kept at each precinct to show the extra voters.

The 2 counties fully tallied in Florida showed 5 extra ballots somehow the optiscan machine didn't count. How can that be? Somebody accidently overstuffed the ballots?



A machine may undercount via spoiled ballots but it should never overcount.

Also Kerry gained 37 more votes in those 2 counties. I think they may have done minor padding and minor vote switching so Bush would have the popular vote. I can't imagine fixing the ballots after the fact for all counties so they probably just hoped the such small variation would be considered a minor "computer glitch". Nothing serious. Optiscanners aren't perfect. Move along.

Big vote moves were probably done in the vacuum of evoting machines with no paper trail and a select group of counties like Volusia where they had access to the ballots after the fact and corrupt locals willing to commit election fraud.

Why can't we just set up some churches to have people come in and sign a notorized affidavit that they voted for Kerry in some of the midsize counties that are suspect? Maybe canvass the area first if we aren't sure. Can't we just circumvent partisan election officials. Maybe they can drag recounts. But can they stop us from doing are own unofficial revote?

This local, grass-roots approach to democracy seems to be exactly what we need, as it asks Americans to revisit election day: I voted, and this is who I voted for-- on a larger scale. Get ONE precinct, to come out and sign affidavits (of course the legal proof needed is the signed poll book) and see ONE precinct radically underrepresented in official tallies-- and you have the potential for a MAJOR LOCAL STORY that INVOLVES THE PEOPLE! The people then realize, my god, my vote vanished, disappeared! And then the PEOPLE are realizing what the statisticians can't make anyone see/fee-- the most intimate, direct realization of disenfranchisement.

And all it takes is for ONE precinct to have this experience, I think...People will then start waking up..the post November 2nd slumber will be interrupted... and once the PEOPLE wake up and realize, my god! the guy I voted for may have really won!

well, that's the beginning of the groundswell that WILL make MSM take note. That's all we need to get regular people OUT ON THE STREETS PROTESTING!!

I tried to email ACT and Moveon to see if they could use their preelection data to sound out if a county was good. Got no response.

Perhaps DU could try to get a little movement going to kickstart this effort?

Moveon and ACT are too burdened, not well-staffed enough to read and reply to emails, I'd guess. Another *group* would have to make a plea and/or request, I'd think, to get noticed and to get a quick reply...

Anyway, I'm brand new here, but it seems that a local, grassroots effort like this is something DU-er's could get going...

And no doubt, a local grassroots vote counting effort strikes me as THE BEST WAY to move this "story" into reality..to get real people and real votes and real counts back into the minds of...

I mean, this is what I've been thinking since, well, since NOVEMBER 3rd!!!

first one precinct...then...

it'll spread. This is the kind of story that "breaks" because real people are involved....and I mean, they're involved in a direct, obvious way. (it's not "experts say...")

Do you know how to start a new thread?

I think you have to have a certain amount of posting clout. I'm fairly new.

I meant the florida recount showed 5 votes that the optiscan counted that had no corresponding ballot as I understand it. That should never happen. We know about spoiled ballots which would have more ballots than total count. I guess there could be vote count mistakes but you would think that should be quantified and be very small. But there should never be more votes counted than ballots.

Actually, going over the Florida post again it looks like the machine wasn't necessarily adding vapor votes. However, the votes were flipping from Kerry to Bush in at least one county. I always thought the optical scanners were highly reliable, the only problem was under/over votes. I didn't know they could misread a vote.

It would be interesting to ask the Miami Herald if the third county also showed a slight improvement for Kerry.

How is the New Hampshire recount going? Didn't they have 100 extra official votes with no ballots or did I get that confused, too.