Big Guns are Needed -- BBV has coughed up one county. Dem party AWOL.

At some point the Dems need to get in on this thing in a substantive way. The piece-mealing we're doing is very important and we should stay on it, but you don't have to be a genius to see that when an organization devoted to issues this -- BBV -- has been able to produce results in just one county after all this time, that we need big guns.

Anyone have any fresh ideas as to how we get the Dems rolling in a proactive, as opposed to reactive, manner?

and other DUers and other progressive organizations which ARE working on this (trust me), and basically We The People.

If you wait for the Dems to come on board, you are wasting valuable time. If you try to lobby them to get involved, you're wasting both time and ENERGY, neither of which we have to spare.

There are many things YOU can do -- check out the Activism posts in these threads for a few ideas:

VOTE FRAUD LINKS - A DU Compendium - Thread #3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x4927

VOTE FRAUD Links Compendium - Thread #2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x3223

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#


But for God's sake, don't count on the Dems coming to our rescue here. If you want to save democracy, it's going to have to be on OUR shoulders, as great changes in civil history always are.


Oh -- and I have no idea what you mean by "one county" -- FOUR states are being recounted (or recounts are being demanded in 4 states) -- NH (underway), Ohio (waiting on the "cerfified" vote), NV and NM (Cobb/Badnerik just joined an existing NV suit and made a request in NM TODAY!).

Some of this stuff is being done without a lot of fanfare and publicity, but it IS being done.

Now let's get busy, okay? No time to waste pining for feckless lovers or faithless beaux.

And they're unlikely to grow any, um, muscle any time soon.

Further, IMO your plaintive plea for help from them is insulting to all those who ARE carrying this burden when you imply that they're not doing the job and more "help" is needed. It's pretty insulting to Cobb, Badnerik and Nader, too, who are out in front of the movement to save democracy itself -- and in the process (oh! irony of ironies!) the Democratic Party too.

I just look around and see:

>The amount of time it has taken BBV to get one county nailed down.
>The challenge by Cobb, Badnerik and Nader is facing challenges rooted in the fact that they have no chance of winning the election -- an argument that would not exist if Kerry were involved.
>Cobb, Badnerik and Nader had to scramble to get funds that Kerry has on-hand.
>There is a momentum challenge here that is tied to the fact that the candidate who lost is not contesting the election, and neither is his party.

I don't want to get into it with you, but I just saw you slam another party for speaking up as well, basically claiming they couldn't possibly know anything and have that position, and maybe you should take a breath before you start blasting. I do not intend to insult anyone -- I have a great deal of respect for everyone involved, especially candidates who are on our side even though we didn't vote for them -- but suggesting that we need deeper resources and the legitimacy of the losing party's voice.

the Democrats are just a worn and stretched out sphincter muscle.

Welcome to the blogging revolution, my friend!

we're the small furry mammals in a forest of big old dinosaurs. fear not tho, there is a cold wind blowing against the empire...

whalerider55

It has really sickened me. Voting rights and true elections are far more important to me than the Democratic Party's desire to look magnanmous. All I see is weakness and fear. Watching and reading the happinings in Ukraine have only re-inforced this reality. Only we can expect results from our own actions, not Kerry's (No Action) not the DNC (Big Time No Action).

Seriously, why are they afraid to fight?

becoming pedifiles and mass Jesus hating drug users... the typical Scott Ridder treatment. I also suspect they fear losing the debate over the 10 dead voters someone somewhare may have dug up to vote for Kerry. I don't worry about them because dead people do not participate in mass exit polls.

The Repugnantcans want someone to lead them, GinGrinch, LimpBalm, whoever. They just want someone to tell them what to think. We want someone who will let us think for ourselves. We're much harder to "lead", because we hate being led! So, it's up to us! Stop whining if our leaders are not "strong enough". Our leaders are counting on US for their strength! Instead of us laying back on our couches and whining that "oh, Kerry didn't cheat as well as Bush did", well, maybe Kerry is waiting for us to do something about it! From what I've seen, most DU'ers are doing this. For the depressed, fatalistic DU'ers that are questioning the optomistic, active DU'ers - I think that we should always have an opposing point of view for discussion. BUT, step out of the way! Your Leadership is NOT coming from any PARTY, but from the MASSES! Where it SHOULD come from!

I see a BIG increase in any mention of ANY of this due to one factor -- Jesse Jackson. He is a name to attach... media needs STARS for their STORIES. Katherine Harris had STAR QUALITY. Jesse Jackson STAR QUALITY.

Good or bad, even FOX covered the story with JESSE there. I think the main reason the media passed on this is because Kerry passed.

Media needs to be "fed."

But it is true. The candidate not contesting the result is what makes us all flunk the smell test.

and i've been flamed for the same indiscretion.

doesn't make it any less valid a concern howevah...

funny, nobody flames Kerry for stepping down...

whalerider55

I don't think he should be blamed for what he did... it was very much in character. He seemed to be holding out to see how big the OH lead went. He also assumed Bush won the popular vote.

Kerry has watched from a distance, I'm sure. There may be a time when he seizes a media moment... I'm not sure the time is the best (right now). Wait, I'd advise.

once it's safe to come out from hiding (if it ever is on this subject, and that's unlikely).

my point has always been that this should be about enfranchisement- making sure that everyone who wants to votes, and every vote is counted...

why shouldn't Kerry and every dem "leader" be shouting at the tops of their lungs about that? why wait- until the elections are certified?

even if Kerry didn't win, don't tell me that 5,000 uncounted votes wouldn't make a difference in a house or senate race.

they missed the boat on this one- they framed the issue so badly that they ended up justifying a betrayal of all voters.

if Kerry and the Dems don't care about votes in Cayahoga county in 2004, why should those folks come out to vote in 2006?

whalerider55

... to do what you (and everyone here) has a perfect right to expect. I admit it is rather LAME by DU/our standards/expectations and downright embarassing, too.

Maybe Bush was "misunderestimated."

Evil keeps no set business hours.

If everyone is busy bashing him he can stay home and be cozy with his family.

He doesn't need abuse.

He needs to see that we will be Marching with him .

He will look like a fool if he jumps out now,demands this and that and Democrats are Christmas shopping.

Where is the energy!

He needs to see energy.
He needs to see that we have the WILL to fight like dogs to win.

There is enough and more than enough reason to question the method and means of this suspect election. I have hoped in the "below the radar", "behind the scenes" stealth operation. Patience grasshopper. Shhhh, wait and see.

I have hoped and I have believed in the leadership and integrity of my candidate.

I also know that Chuck Hagel stands to be harmed by this mess. I believe Hagel is a GOOD MAN who speaks, votes and acts from conscience and introspection. I believe that Kerry has personal loyalties which may overshadow his public responsibilities.

just my .02

The patience factor is a challenge for me on this issue because the country has moved past the election. I could be wrong, but in my mind the immediate concession is at the heart of our momentum challenge.

Even gentlemen have to lay aside the trappings of their position and step forward to make war. The time for talk has passed. Now is a time for action.

But more importantly Senator "Reporting for Duty" will have let his country down at at time in which the very existence of the republic hangs in the balance. Surely, he'll make his move. Surely.

This story is being covered only today.Yesterday they did nothing! I will say that Jesse is a draw though. I met him at the last debate, in the spin room, and it was facinating to watch the reporters. They had wesClark on one side, Karl Rove on anotherMicheal J. Fox in front and many others scattered around. Everyone surrounded Jesse, like bees to honey. They might be critical, but damn, they will give him coverage. I think he is being used deliberately as a surrogate for Kerry. He keeps referring to him and what he said. He is also implying a change in direction. I guess we will just have to see.It won't be much longer now.

Time will tell. I agree it will not be much longer.

Maybe this movement would take it forward?

It couldn't hurt to ask but it should be someone with all the info and a good grasp of all the issues. I was hoping BBV was already in touch with some of these guys:

Take a good look at the

Progressive Democrats of America... http://pdamerica.org/

This new caucus movement intends to take back the Dem Party from inside and we need your help. Join... with Dean and Kucinich supporters, Indies, Greens and ABB Dems who fell behind Kerry as a last ditch solution - like we need another billionaire President. Instead we’ll rekindle the voice of dissent from WITHIN the Democratic Party.

whalerider55

with. My first was Kucinich, second was Dean...Thanks for the link! Maybe this will be the way!

of Dennis Kucinich (I voted for him in the primaries, BTW), doesn't have an organization of progressive liberals, according to the web site. Huh. I'd join in a heartbeat.

Judge to rule Tuesday on part of challenge to Bush victory in Nevada


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/11/29/state1956EST0121.DTL

Judge to rule Tuesday on part of challenge to Bush victory in Nevada

SCOTT SONNER, Associated Press Writer
Monday, November 29, 2004

-snip-
A judge intends to decide Tuesday whether to allow a legal
challenge to move forward aimed at blocking Nevada's five
electoral votes from being cast next month for President
Bush.

Washoe County District Judge Peter Breen said Monday he's
considering setting an evidentiary hearing to determine
whether there are grounds to keep the votes from Bush -- who
carried Nevada by 21,500 votes -- due to allegations of voter
registration fraud and claims some voting machines
malfunctioned.

-snip-
"President Bush is claiming he has a mandate and included in
that is that the state of Nevada stood behind him. Even if
Nevada's five electoral votes will not change the election, it
does have an impact on whether Nevada is part of that
mandate," Dickerson said.

`If there are disenfranchised voters who were illegally
disenfranchised ... then those voters are not having their
will voiced," he said.