Are Democrats being played?

After the exceptionally close election of 2000, a hot burning core of anger was left among many Democrats about the election. With such a small margin in Florida, recounts showing different results, and VP Gore’s overall popular vote, this is most certainly understandable. But has this anger hurt the Democratic Party? Overall, I think yes, it has, and I will explain why.

Self-blame is always a HARD thing, in our daily lives and in politics. So we tend to always blame others for our failures, cause its much easier than looking in the mirror. This is certainly no secret to anyone, but could it be that the enemies of the Democratic Party are actually fanning these flames to keep focus off of the truth? I think so.

Lets look at facts: Since Bill Clinton’s 1992 election, there has been a steady erosion of Democratic power at every level of government. Considering the peace and prosperity of the Clinton years, and the 1998 elections that cost Republicans some seats, 2000 should never have been close, but it was, all too close, and I think many people just saw RED (no pun intended) and can not longer see any other color….they are “ON TILT”

Any poker players out there? One of the keys to winning the game is to make your opponent SO angry that they no longer see the cards, the odds, or the bets, but only YOU(like President Bush, Karl Rove, etc). Once this happens, all YOUR chips start working towards THEIR side of the table. Sadly, I feel the Republicans found the TILT button in 2000 with one word: FRAUD

Armed with the lightning speed of the Internet, theories can fly round the world far faster than news of old, and truth never need be established(look at several threads here already proven false or misleading). They can be spread completely anonymously, without any knowledge of who the sender is or their goals. Emotions are stirred up, and above all else, the belief that “it was stolen” makes people SO angry that they are prevented from seeing WHY all the chips that were once on the Democratic side of the table are now on the Republican side. This rage at the Republicans also makes people feel so much better, but it keeps them from ever learning from mistakes....thereby keeping them angry, but out of power, and the anger drives away those less committed who otherwise agree. When consumed with anger, ones focus becomes SO narrow that building broad colitions becomes very tough...since anyone who doesnt belive that "it was stolen" is instantly the enemy, a Repuke, etc....it becomes a crusade.....nuff said there, we all read all the personal attacks here, you know what I mean....however

There is NO question that election reform is needed, as discussed in this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=117986&mesg_id=117986

But I feel this election is LOST.....my opinion due to a failure to learn from mistakes made in the past. President Bush was most certainly beatable, as the smallest reelection margin in history shows....but he also got 61,000,000+ votes, and that shows his message carried better than John Kerry's, even if everyone here feels 180% out from it!

On the other hand, if MASSIVE fraud that would affect the outcome of this election is found, and PROVEN, of course it should be pursued,and those responsible locked up. But no matter what, Democrats must not be swept away in a tidal wave of anger, stay on TILT, clinging to every single accusation, getting madder….and then in the next election the enemy has more and more chips....Democrats scream FRAUD… madder…more power lost...and so on. Passion can blind one to the truth....and must be tempered with reason....otherwise this wave of anger will leave nothing behind but the ashes of a once great party of the people.

There is no question in my mind that there ARE Republicans on this board whose sole intention is to fan the flames, keep Democrats angry, and above all, keep them from ever learning from our mistakes. Everyone must be careful to avoid such poison pills, and keep the focus on the WINNING issues that made this party so strong in the past, and stay positive, even in these dark times for Democrats.


Thanks for all the great posts here, and best wishes to all!

On the other hand, you can only be played as much as you allow, especially as far as mind-fucking is concerned.

The question is: Who controls your mind and reactions? You or the mind-fuckers?

As for myself, I keep my own counsel. And that of a very small number of acquaintences and friends who are far, far wiser than I will ever be. Them, I listen up when they speak.

The mind-fuckers can kiss my salty ass. I always need a laugh.

Dead on post, thanks!

Is that how we should be?

Nothing is EVER accomplished without anger and passion behind it.

IOW means?

Sorry, new guy...

NT

The Bubishi(google it) tells us that "Anger is a killer". It kills steely resolve and your finest techiques. You only flail when angry.

Take that anger, control it and turn it into...something else.

But, a sensei once wrote that going into combat, righteous indignation is the perfect mindset. In my time as a professional combatant(Bouncer), I found that to be just about right.

In my time as a professional combatant (US Army soldier) I found it to be not "just about right" but a literal LIFE SAVER. Anger has saved my ass more times than I can name, but anger tempered with wisdom, patience, and great fore-thought.

The question is not whether to fight. It's how to fight. Fight smart. I like what you say about anger tempered with wisdom, patience and great fore-thought. I am interested in your war stories. The strategy, the skill, the way of the warrior...stand and fight.

But from my experience, I don't see a lot of smart fighters. Willing, oh yes, a lot of willingness. But no kime. No Zanshin.

We can be better than them. Yes, we can. It would not be one of the great moments in the improbable happening, either.

Go to http://www.koryu.com

Read some of the interviews with the old guys. See their pictures. We might want to be a bit more like them. Emulate them a bit.

Couldn't hurt.

Hey Stand and Fight,

what did you do in the Army? PM me if you do not want to post here, thanks

Field Artillery

I was originally a 13E, Cannon Fire Direction Specialist, until they consolidated it with 13C. Upon consolidation and training on the AFATDS system I became a 13D20, Field Artillery Tactical Data Systems Operator NCO. I got out in February of this year after serving five years in the Army.

Thats cool, the BIG guns, guess you have some time in OEF/OIF, and a rare 1st hand perspective of many of the issues discussed here. take care, or should I say TAKE CARE(lol)

I have shot both of those -- the 155mm and the 105mmm. I've been in heavy, medium and light units, and was stationed at Fort Lewis, WA, home of the Army's first medium brigade.

you make some interesting arguments, some of which carry a good deal of weight with me.

but- i am not sure about a steady erosion of democratic "power" at all levels- we increased the number of state legislative houses we control this year, we took some surprising governorships, and in some states set the stage for a legitimate campaign on issues.

note the unwillingness of the SCOTUS today to even consider the Gay Marriage issue; a strong signal that all those lovely Referenda passed around the country outlawing it are unconstitutional and the SC didn't want to go there...

and on what basis do you parse freeper dem-baiting from legitimate discussion around issues and disagreement on tactics? if we can't disagree here without running the risk of being told we're giving comfort to the enemy, (we've heard that before) than where do we go? out of the party?

so i respect your ideas, and think there is a lot of merit to them.
i don';t agree with all of them.

and my anger is simply this.
enfranchisement. if the dems aren't willing to make the argument that every one who wants to vote should, and every one who votes has a right to have it counted, why should i wait on line in the rain 6 hours in 2006?

whalerider55

Whalerider55,

thanks for your excellent post. Wow 6 hours in the rain! NOW that is passion! No system is gonna disenfranchise you!

I would say the line on disagreement is crossed when we shut others out and label them due to our not agreeing on ONE issue when the person may well support our overall goals. For example, how 85% of those whose oppose gun control WILL NOT vote for someone who is for it, no matter what other stands that candidate might have. Also, going to the personal attack right away, you did a wonderful job of expressing your opinion WITHOUT attacking me, and I thank you for that! We need a Big Tent. not a pup tent!

take care and best wishes

Because the righteous anger of those who have been robbed and raped will throw these crooks out of power before they know what hit them...

I think there are times in a person's life, indeed, in history where a human or humans just need justice. In my opinion, this is one of those times. A line has been crossed. I have been attacked by the infiltrated Republican party on the basis of religion, of morality, of politics, money and my country. These are all deeply held beliefs. I agree Shalom the wrath of people who have been robbed and raped is powerful indeed. Though they may take it for long periods of time, there comes a point when enough is enough. I am sick of the hypocrisy, of the lies, the corruption, the injustice. It's time to fight.

Not now, not then, not ever... Republicans have cheated and we WILL find it or we WON'T find it as they are pretty cleaver in the deceit arena. Bottom line, 61,000 votes is not to be trusted, if the process is not to be trusted, which it is clearly not. Then your casual suggestion that "MASSIVE" fraud "should be pursued," suggests you may be a little red yourself. Marginalization is not going to work for the experienced poker player. And Arizona snakes are gentlemen..they talk to you before they bite you...no 6 shooters required for defense...A snake is a snake, even if it is a gentleman.

they are pretty cleaver in the deceit arena.

LMAO

that we consider paperless electronic voting machines unacceptable.

While many Democratic Congresspersons co-sponsored "The Voter Confidence Act" against blackbox voting, only seven Senators co-sponsored it:

Sen Graham, Bob
Sen Dayton, Mark - 5/18/2004
Sen Hollings, Ernest F. - 4/1/2004
Sen Lautenberg, Frank R. - 3/25/2004
Sen Nelson, Bill - 2/23/2004
Sen Schumer, Charles E. - 2/23/2004
Sen Wyden, Ron - 9/7/2004


We should be angry at the other 93 Senators.

Senators Who Aren't Yet Cosponsors of The Voter Confidence Act
Please call your Senators below at 1-800-839-5276.

Murkowski, Lisa - (R - AK)
Stevens, Ted - (R - AK)
Sessions, Jeff - (R - AL)
Shelby, Richard - (R - AL)
Lincoln, Blanche - (D - AR)
Pryor, Mark - (D - AR)
Kyl, Jon - (R - AZ)
McCain, John - (R - AZ)
Boxer, Barbara - (D - CA)
Feinstein, Dianne - (D - CA)
Allard, Wayne - (R - CO)
Campbell, Ben - (R - CO)
Dodd, Christopher - (D - CT)
Lieberman, Joseph - (D - CT)
Biden, Joseph - (D - DE)
Carper, Thomas - (D - DE)
Chambliss, Saxby - (R - GA)
Miller, Zell - (D - GA)
Akaka, Daniel - (D - HI)
Inouye, Daniel - (D - HI)
Grassley, Chuck - (R - IA)
Harkin, Tom - (D - IA)
Craig, Larry - (R - ID)
Crapo, Michael - (R - ID)
Durbin, Richard - (D - IL)
Fitzgerald, Peter - (R - IL)
Bayh, Evan - (D - IN)
Lugar, Richard - (R - IN)
Brownback, Sam - (R - KS)
Roberts, Pat - (R - KS)
Bunning, Jim - (R - KY)
McConnell, Mitch - (R - KY)
Breaux, John - (D - LA)
Landrieu, Mary - (D - LA)
Kennedy, Edward - (D - MA)
Kerry, John - (D - MA)
Mikulski, Barbara - (D - MD)
Sarbanes, Paul - (D - MD)
Collins, Susan - (R - ME)
Snowe, Olympia - (R - ME)
Levin, Carl - (D - MI)
Stabenow, Debbie - (D - MI)
Coleman, Norm - (R - MN)
Bond, Christopher - (R - MO)
Talent, James - (R - MO)
Cochran, Thad - (R - MS)
Lott, Trent - (R - MS)
Baucus, Max - (D - MT)
Burns, Conrad - (R - MT)
Dole, Elizabeth - (R - NC)
Edwards, John - (D - NC)
Conrad, Kent - (D - ND)
Dorgan, Byron - (D - ND)
Hagel, Chuck - (R - NE)
Nelson, Ben - (D - NE)
Gregg, Judd - (R - NH)
Sununu, John - (R - NH)
Corzine, Jon - (D - NJ)
Bingaman, Jeff - (D - NM)
Domenici, Pete - (R - NM)
Ensign, John - (R - NV)
Reid, Harry - (D - NV)
Clinton, Hillary - (D - NY)
DeWine, Mike - (R - OH)
Voinovich, George - (R - OH)
Inhofe, James - (R - OK)
Nickles, Don - (R - OK)
Smith, Gordon - (R - OR)
Santorum, Rick - (R - PA)
Specter, Arlen - (R - PA)
Chafee, Lincoln - (R - RI)
Reed, Jack - (D - RI)
Graham, Lindsey - (R - SC)
Daschle, Thomas - (D - SD)
Johnson, Tim - (D - SD)
Alexander, Lamar - (R - TN)
Frist, Bill - (R - TN)
Cornyn, John - (R - TX)
Hutchison, Kay - (R - TX)
Bennett, Robert - (R - UT)
Hatch, Orrin - (R - UT)
Allen, George - (R - VA)
Warner, John - (R - VA)
Jeffords, James - (I - VT)
Leahy, Patrick - (D - VT)
Cantwell, Maria - (D - WA)
Murray, Patty - (D - WA)
Feingold, Russell - (D - WI)
Byrd, Robert - (D - WV)
Rockefeller, John - (D - WV)
Enzi, Michael - (R - WY)
Thomas, Craig - (R - WY)

Welcome to DU, but for GOD's sake (and ours), please don't pontificate on things you obviously know nothing about. At least have the grace to pose your lectures couched in more modest terms of mere personal opinion.

On the other hand, if MASSIVE fraud that would affect the outcome of this election is found, and PROVEN, of course it should be pursued,

Chum, you can't find the fraud OR the proof of it unless you do the PURSUING (investigation) first.

Further -- and I like to ask all our skeptics this question: what constitutes "proof" for you? I never get an answer. Wonder why?

Jesse Jackson had it right today: we can take winning and losing, but we can't take fraud and theft.

This isn't about anger over losing -- it's not even about anger over having yet another election stolen. It's about FIXING things -- exposing the damnable machines, exposing the massive vote suppression, making changes at state and federal levels so that we save democracy, LITERALLY. That's what's at stake.

You can believe anything you want to, makes no difference to me. But your pontification is an insult, borne of ignorance of the subject. Of course, there are those who might say your argument perfectly mirrors rightwing "get over it" talking points. And I certainly would understand their concern about that.

If you wish to actually UNDERSTAND this issue, and why DUers are overwhelmingly on the "fraud" side of the debate, I challenge you to take a nice, long, leisurely walk through these threads -- all of them, including links:

VOTE FRAUD LINKS - A DU Compendium - Thread #3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x4927

VOTE FRAUD Links Compendium - Thread #2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x3223

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#


Unless, of course, you have no desire to educate yourself about this critically important issue.

Thanks for your reply, and the links. I have been reading that forum quite a bit, and there is NO doubt that massive reform is needed, and that complaints need to be investigated.

I would consider proof to be those things that state or federal law allows for the contesting of an election over to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and this will vary depending on which law you are looking at. Until all the facts come out, this will not be so, but I have no doubt that many, many lawsuits will be filed in Ohio and other states, and it will have its day in court, and of course the final court of public opinion.

As I said, my main concern is to be able to sort valid complaints of fraud from fake information no doubt being fed to discredit....and that is not easy.

The reason I used the word MASSIVE fraud is the margin in Ohio is far, far greater than the margin in 2000, and as such would require changing the vote to a much greater extent. Of course, ANY fraud is too much, but its gonna take a lot more than was needed in 2000, simple fact.


Again, thanks for the links, and keep up the great posts!

Are you acting as if you are some authority on this, or that you can talk down to the superiors here. Why are you thanking every poster. Why are you responding to Eloriel as if you are her supervisor or something. I don't know, somethin strikes me as odd about you. I'll watch carefully, but for now, listen to ELORIEL's voice of reason, and welcome to DU.

:shrug:

It always amazes me when new people come onto DU and try to tell us how to behave or what to believe. I especially get suspicious (LOL -- and HIGHLY annoyed) when they warn us that the Republicans won't like what we're saying, or believing, or that we'll be called cranks, crackpots, tinfoil hatters, whiners, losers, crybabies, etc. ROTFL. As if they wouldn't call us those things anyway, or continue to make up lies about us as they are so wont to do.

Thanks for your kind words.

I could not have said it any better myself. You are, for the hour, my personal hero for putting this person in their place by informing him.

I watched the coverage of the election on the BBC. I saw James Ruben in the Democrat camp beam that the figures they had couldn't be better. They couldn't find anyone to speak in the Republican camp, though they had a Republican pollster on saying it looked like it was going to be Kerry's night. And the previous evening Zogby had been on Newsnight and called it for Kerry. I went to bed and when I got up everything had changed. Something definitely happened.

A few nghts before Greg Palast had been on Newsnight giving a report about the lists of felons in Florida, reminding us of what had happened there four years ago. It was on the cards.

The idea that Republicans are deliberately whipping up talk of fraud seems like the wackiest of all possible conspiracy theories.

I'm not American. Bush is not my president, but he affects my life and the lives of the 95% of the world who are not American probably more than anyone that we could elect. There are a lot of people out here looking to you to do something. If you don't keep hunting down and investigating the evidence you will never find the proof, but if you wait until there is absolute 100% proof of fraud without a shadow of a doubt then it may be too late. The evidence you have now is enough to get out there onto the streets and make your voices heard, like they're doing in Ukraine. Good luck!

enough to change the results? who knows. I do know there are a few glaring examples , tho. If all examples can be uncovered , I fear is impossible. I am so sad our anger in Fla, came to naught.

I think I could almost stand it if those who think bush is great got what they deserved, even if it meant hitting rock bottom and having to work our way back up. Maybe those of us in America who despise bush and his loyal supporters could live with that, hoping some lessons will be learned. (Of course, that's wishful thinking.)

But knowing how it affects the entire world, no, I won't roll over, I won't sit and I won't stay. I'm in this for the long haul, because it's my personal belief that literally millions could die if we do nothing. I'm not being dramatic. This is the cold truth.

To paraphrase a wise old saying, all that is required for evil to prevail is for good men and women to do nothing.

More of this crap about how dems should NOT go negative and i say that's BS. Dems should have been attacking bush for the last year - calling him a dangerous psychopath who lied us into a war.

PS - WTF does poker have to do with an election???

future elections will be meaningless . . . they stole it in 2000 and we did nothing . . . they stole several seats in 2002 and we did nothing . . . and now they've outright stolen the presidency and who knows how many House and Senate seats in 2004 . . . unless we focus all of our energy on uncovering and fully exposing every aspect of 2004 election fraud, we won't even have to bother running candidates in future elections . . . the results will be predetermined . . .

We did nothing once and look where we are. Doing nothing is not an option this time. Wait and see...NOT! I have waited. I have seen. It's disgraceful to do nothing at a time like this. If we don't expose the 2004 fraud, like you say, the next election won't matter. You can kiss democracy goodbye.

I don't think a lot of people understand and/or recognize the danger that ignoring the fraud in this election poses. It is absolutely crucial that we step forward, stand up for what is right, and fight tooth and nail for our democracy. I don't understand these individuals who take an attitude that we should be complacent and allow this election and all of its irregularities go unchallenged. For the sake of our democracy, we have to make sure that the electoral process in this country is fixed. If we ignore this and choose to look the other way we are screwing ourselves and our descendents over in a major way.

There's just no way in hell.

Remember:

1) The Tulsa World article showing Kerry doing rather well in Oklahoma.

2) The DIFFERENT exit pollsters all showing a landslide for Kerry.

3) The complete shift from 2000 to 2004 towards two corporate entities who lean heavily towards Bush on the political landscape.

4) The countless "errors" in tabulation

5) The ongoing effort of the GOP to continually state that Bush won fair and square and yet try to stonewall against all recounts.


There's no way in hell.

You say (quote) "We always blame others for our failures cause it's easier than looking in the mirror." (ie. blame yourselves, Democrats)

I say: It is only by standing up to this historic rip-off that we* CAN look ourselves in the mirror.

-------------
(*we = liberals, democrats, greens, progressives, independents,
libertarians, and "moderate" republicans (I do know of some
who detect the same rotten smell that we do).

Sorry, not buying your line. The failure of our election system is
what needs to be fixed. And we're not confused at all about where to put the blame.

One: The Democratic Party is a total failure as a party. Yes, this is true. They couldn't beat a dead man. They had four years to deal with e-voting and didn't do shit. They are finished as a party.

Two: The Republicans figured out how to steal elections starting in 2000 and they pretty much perfected it in 2004.

These are two separate things that have nothing to do with each other.

The fact that number One is true is a completely separate issue from the far more dangerous and frightening fact that number two is true.

Again, you're doing the "abused spouse" thing, blaming the Democratic Party for the crimes of the Republican Party.

Both are true, but they are NOT related, except insofar as the election should never have been close enough to steal in any way shape or form.

You are accepting the "three million vote mandate" which if you do your homework you'll see was a fiction.

All evidence points to a major Kerry win. Except for the "vote count". And I mean ALL of the evidence. Did you see the crowds for Kerry vs. Bush? Did you see the long lines? Did you see the huge increases in voter registration 90% of which were for Kerry?

Look at the evidence and get back to us.

the ones writing articles about incidents of fraud in the mainstream media. Do you think it was a Republican scheme at the Tulsa World to show John Kerry winning 57 counties in Oklahoma? I sure as hell don't.

to encourage the masses to confront these beasts, so be it. I will never bow. I will never compromise my rights. I have drawn the line. And if these fascists feel so inclined, they can make more Kent State martyrs. Their mighty house, at once fearsome and threatening, will be no more than ash in the wind.

My son's blood will never be shed for the wealth and power of the likes of George W. Bush.