Time: Does it work for us or against us?

When it comes to when to fight, there are two distinct positions out here among those who suspect election fraud:

a) Kerry and the Dems need to step forward now because time is not on our side and the candidate's concession raises doubts about our concerns.

b) Patience is needed while Kerry and the Dems quietly build a solid case. (I think of this as the "faith in Kerry" position.)

I am of the mindset that time is working against us -- not just in terms of the inauguration window -- but in even gaining enough momentum to be effective. Most of the country has moved past this election and party leaders are addressing what they did wrong, how to become more appealing to "values voters," etc. It seems to me that the longer this drags out, the more difficult it will be to drag the country back to November 2nd and revisit the vote.

I'm curious as to what everyone thinks now that the Thanksgiving holiday has passed without the big splash into the mainstream that many who had erred on the side of patience had predicted.

there is enough of a case now to say we need to thoroughly investigate. that's all we evewr needed.

time will weaken that. the rove machine makes believe it wins, and then the sheep follow.

Bah.

whalerider55

We educate politicians.

They do not live in a bubble. They have one finger in the wind at all times.

Consider this: Last night, Wayne Madsen said that he has been meeting with officials from the DNC. Now, if this is true and I have no evidence to the contrary, just where do you think that they first heard of all this? From surfing the net in The Palm in DC?

Eheh. They heard it from people like US.

No matter what, your voice is not stilled. Use it.

This is what some of my local activists and I are faxing to our state and local reps tomorrow. Urge everyone to do the same. Fax, and CALL. Get these lazy donkeys off their asses!

******************

Our Votes are Our Voice: Let Your Voice Be Heard!

We the undersigned Progressive Minnesota voters demand that you

1. Support the GAO investigation and other efforts to uncover fraud in the 2004 election

2. Educate yourself and speak out publicly against this threat to democracy

3. Provide leadership and support in the fight against voter disenfranchisement

Dear Elected Progressive Minnesota Public Servant:

The evidence is now clear that the Republican Party used multiple methods of fraud and voter suppression in nearly every state in the land during this election, as part of a calculated, long-term, methodical strategy which is intended to rob Americans of their franchise.

Thousands of Minnesota DFL’ers and other Progressives on both the left and the right came together in unprecedented community coalitions to put you and the Kerry/Edwards team in office. We did this because after the 2000 election, we recognized this threat for what it is. We worked day and night for you and the Kerry/Edwards ticket. We are very proud that Minnesota was successful in beating the Republican strategy back. Unfortunately other states were not as successful.

We recognize that dirty tricks have always been a part of American elections. However, Karl Rove’s all pervasive ‘Born Again Jim Crow’ anti-democracy machine represents an unprecedented attack on the democratic process. We knew the Republicans were preparing during the last four years to move their strategy north, and to spread it across all America. We were ready for a fight and we supported you and the Kerry/Edwards ticket because we thought you were too.

We are therefore frustrated, disappointed and angry about your silence concerning this matter. The coalitions that formed to put you in office and defend democracy in this election will not hold for the next two years if you do not immediately take action on our behalf. We demand that as our elected local leadership you educate yourselves on this issue, join with the groups and persons that are taking action upon it, speak out nationally on our behalf, and do everything possible to encourage action by the Democratic Party at the national level.

To begin this campaign immediately, we further insist that you meet with us in a Community Forum to Protect Democracy and the Right to Vote. We will be contacting you personally to work out the details.

Time works for us or against us, depending on how we utilize our time.

supposed to be our (dem) 'leaders' are losing my respect and making me really sorry for the slack I've been cutting them.

If the goal is to see Kerry inaugerated on Jan 6, time is definately against us.

If the goal is to criminally prosecute those who committed fraud, we obviously don't have that deadline.

And if the goal is electoral reform before the mid-term elections, we have a bit of time, but not alot of time, to get the ball rolling.

Let Kerry build a case while the people take to the streets, investigate in their own neighborhoods and with available information on the Internet, push the subject on the media, etc. in a way that the fair and transparent counting of ballots becomes an issue for everyone not involved already. This is a fight that every democracy loving American should fight for. Without transparent elections Democracy is a myth.

OTOH I doubt that anyone can force Kerry to do anything he doesn't want to. So the Americans should fight their fight by themselves and hope that Kerry finds enough evidence of electoral fraud to join the fight in time. Wouldn't you say?

Did he want to POTUS job?

that you guys should give Kerry time. And of the belief that he is fighting for you. I cannot bring myself to believe that a person that has always shown so much concern (even willing to risk his life) for other Americans can just turn his back on his country. It just doesn't make sense.

On the other hand, I would never even think to judge any American who supported Kerry's campaign and now feels betrayed by his/her party and his/her candidate.

It is an extraordinarily complex situation but you should stick to what you know for sure. And act on that. Kerry is, I believe, in it and he has to have very good reasons not to come out shouting fraud. I can think of credibility attacks and spinning by the Repugs, but there, very likely, are other reasons. In any case, if you voted for him, you might as well trust him at least until any hope of overturning the election is gone.

But, it is a very difficult situation, you cannot spend 10 minutes at DU reading your posts and not see it, feel it and share it. I hope with all my heart that everything turns out for the better.

Yes, time is short, but don't allow yourself to get beaten down by the notion that some clock is running out on us.

Those "deadlines" are not real deadlines. There are no consequences specified for casting electoral votes after "the date specified" or conveying them to the Archivist late. It is all under the discretion of Congress. And Congress is subject to public pressure. They tried to trump the law with their failed Impeachment. Public opinion thwarted them.

Their sputtering about Jesse Jackson is actually a good sign. They are pulling their usual "shoot the messenger" ploy. It is harder to "shoot the messenger" when We the People are the messenger. When people who were forced to face intolerable barriers stand up and tell their stories. When we stand up and say "Not in MY America. This I WILL NOT tolerate!"

What can we do to enlist lawyers and plaintiffs to bring discrimination suits? There has been money solicited for legal action around recounts, but what about discrimination suits? That is where I believe the focus must be. Public hearings. Compile video taken of the horrible lines.

It is OUR voice we are fighting for. Yes, I wish more politicians and opinion makers were speaking out, but I believe that we may actually have a greater chance of successfully moving public and political thought "on our own."

And I don't think I'm just trying to "make lemonade out of lemons." Think about it. If Kerry had not conceded, it would be about all about Kerry trying to overturn the election. It would just be another battle of the professionals that We the People sat back and watched, waiting for the outcome.

Their failure is an opportunity for us to mobilize and engage in the effort and prove to ourselves that we really do have the power. Their failure means that we can not, and must not, just watch and wait and report what's happening (or complain about what is not happening). We must dive in and fight for ourselves; we must draw the line and demand the rejection of suspect and discriminatory election results. We must find ways to make this demand in our courts of law, in the "public square," and in the halls of Congress.

Even Madsen recommends citizen action as the number one focus. See post 80 in the QA with him (his user name in the Q&A thread is Casolaro). I for one plan to take his advice.

We have our work cut out for us.

Our group is drafting a pledge for members of Congress. There are a couple other efforts we are considering, but right now it looks like the primary focus will be on lobbying members of the House and Senate to sign the pledge, and to use it to challenge those who do not in as public a way as possible (e.g., Failure to sign is complicity with racism -- a concrete and productive accusation aimed at promoting action, not just complaining).