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BOOK CLUB: Jan. "Don't Think of an Elephant" 1

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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 12:24 PM
Original message
BOOK CLUB: Jan. "Don't Think of an Elephant" 1
Edited on Sat Jan-01-05 01:06 PM by crispini
Woohoo, new month, new book!

The guidelines for posting are here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=209x365

REMINDER: If you buy through Amazon.com, this link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?tag=democraticund-20&path=subst/home/home.html

will allow your purchases to benefit DU!

And, FYI, the Feb. book is "Running On Empty - How The Democratic and Republican Parties Are Bankrupting Our Future and What Americans Can Do About It" Pete Petersen.

Have at it, folks! :hi:
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Lakoff DVD is available at:
www.winwithlanguage.com -- it's a really good resource to show to clubs, local D organizations, etc.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thoughts on "Framing" vs. "Propaganda"
I've had several discussions with people on this board recently who seem to view the idea of "framing" as deceptive or as using spin or propaganda. But there is a difference, IMO, between coming up with a neat idea, a handy phrase which packages an idea the way we want it, i.e. "Baby Tax" to refer to the deficit, versus using words to name something deceptively, i.e. "the Clean Air Act" to refer to legislation that will make the air dirtier.

Actually, Lakoff himself distinguishes between the two on p.100 "The reframing I am suggestion is neither spin nor propaganda. Progressives need to learn to communicate using frames they really believe, frames that express what their moral views really are. I strongly recommend against any deceptive framing. I think it is not just morally reprehensible, but also impractical, because deceptive framing usually backfires sooner or later."

Agree? Disagree?
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Another way to explain framing is that you are merely telling the
population what is in it for them (as opposed to what is in it for you). Apparently, some significant portion of 59 million people do not comprehend that a shared responsibility society is a Christian society, for one example.

As a manager for years, when I needed employee cooperation (which was constantly, yes?), I would always explain to those who needed to hear it what was in it for THEM to help out with the task at hand.
Telling them why I wanted it didn't amount to a hill of beans sometimes... and why should it?
It is simply common-sense to sell any product or ideas based upon what is in it for them.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Yes, agree.
Framing something properly is just a good way of expressing it-- and letting the listener know, what's in it for them!
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
37. Kerry called the deficit a birth tax - it gets your attention.
Bush used the death tax to sell getting rid of the estate tax - I know people who liked getting rid of the "death" tax to save family farms but were shocked that it got rid of the estate tax and increased gap between very rich and poor.

Tax relieve instead of tax cuts was terminology the democrats walked right into. Words count as much as the ideas they describe when it comes to politics.
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proReality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
44. "How to Get Your Point Across in 30 Seconds-- or Less"
by Milo O. Frank (Business Communications Consultant)

Copyright 1986
Simon & Schuster

It's an excellent work, showing how to get to the point quickly since "time is money". A good example: TV commercials, which are generally 30 seconds or less to hold the public's short attention span. The concept has been applied to political manipulation.

So, yes, I agree with your statement. We don't need to lie to get our point across, we just need to communicate in a concise fashion.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. I got it as a Christmas gift
I'm up to page 64. So much of what he says rings true to me. For years I've been aware that the conservatives were "playing word games" (at least that's what I called it) but I could never understand why people fell for it. To me what they were doing seemed blatantly obvious and almost patronizing and I couldn't understand why others didn't see that. Now I think I'm starting to understand it a little better. It seemed obvious and patronizing to me (and probably most DUers) because it wasn't aimed at me. It wasn't meant for my "frame".

One odd thing I've noticed as I read the book is that there are times when I almost get angry at it and have to put it down for a while to calm down before I can continue reading it. Have any of you had that experience? I can't quite put my finger on why this happens but I think that it may be because he's telling me things that I don't want to hear. That probably means that they are things that I should hear and think about.

Part of me feels like what he's putting forth is a rather cynical view of human nature, that you have to kind of play to peoples frames of reference. I've always been a big believer in facts and the importance of truth. I've believed that people are rational and that when they're presented with irrefutable facts they will have to come around, change their thinking, and reach the correct conclusion.

Lakoff say's that this isn't the case. Part of me find's this hard to accept and wants to dismiss it. But another part of me (almost like a lightbulb going on) says aha - of course - it makes perfect sense. It should have been obvious to me from experience that people are NOT always swayed by facts, and in reality they will quite often dispute facts rather than change their thinking. Ironically, my clinging to my belief is a perfect example of this! I continued to believe even though my own experience with people showed me I was wrong.

So for me this book (at least the first 64 pages of it) has been something of an eye-opener and I'm planning on making a bulk purchase for the members of my Democracy for America group.

I don't know whether Lakoff has all of the answers (and I probably still won't know even after I've finished the book) but I'm pretty sure that he has some of them and that this book is worth reading.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I haven't gotten mad when reading it, but maybe that's
because I just read "What's the Matter with Kansas" which made me super-FURIOUS when I was reading. I mean, throw-the-book-across-the-room mad. But I know what you mean, especially some of the descriptions about how Republicans think --- just makes you go: grrrrrRRRRR! Same thing in "Kansas."

Your point about facts and truth is SO correct. As Lakoff says, If the facts don't fit the frame, the frame is kept and the facts are thrown away. Once it's pointed out to you, it's SO clear and it makes SO much sense -- but it runs contrary to so much that we as Democrats hold dear, that you can have an intellectual conversation on the issues and sway someone that way. Sadly, it's just not true.
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. What you placed in bold is such a crucial concept. It needs to be
repeated repeatedly. How can we get people who will never take the time to read Lakoff to still grasp this concept?

What do you think of this? I don't really like this example myself but maybe it is a start someone can improve upon:

If you attend a calculus class before taking algebra and geometry, you will not understand anything that the professor is saying. Everything in the calculus lessons will be so much gobbledigook that just slides right over your head. Nothing is retained.
However, if your mind has already been provided sound grounding in algebra and geometry, you will understand what the professor says, and be able to process the new ideas. You will have a framework of reference into which to add the new ideas of calculus.

I would like to see other critical Lakoff ideas posted in here and then 'translated' so I can use this to communicate to people who just won't read, but do talk to a lot of people and want to be politically, productively active.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. I think that's a good start.
And you can also use Lakoff's own example: "Don't think of an elephant!" wups, you thought of an elephant! you framed it!

Or if they won't read Lakoff, have a Lakoff DVD watching party and discussion group?
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I think 'framing' is just part of the human learning process. Just
Edited on Mon Jan-03-05 06:58 PM by DebJ
the way that the mind works. See my post #7 about calculus, algebra and geometry.

In addition to the brain performing a purely logical, fact-building function, there is the emotional content: you know, the CONNOTATION of the word as oppposed to the DENOTATION of a word. What emotional responses are triggered by the choices of various synonyms?

The best example I can think of is the label 'liberal'. What is the connotation for me when I tell a fellow liberal that I am a liberal?
Pride, and yes I guess even a sense of self-righteousness equivalent to that of neo-cons.

What is the connotation when Ann Coulter uses that label, and what is the emotional comprehension of a conservative who hears or uses that label if they buy into Coulters'and Lumbaugh's garbage?

What I am saying is that in addition to fact-building types of framing/learning, there is also the learning of the emotional component of a word. The particular emotional content or connotation of a word depends upon the hearer's emotional classification of that word.

In any political related discussion with a conservative, I can handle this in three ways. First, I can use words like liberal with pride. This would not generate the response or achieve the goal that I am seeking in my conversations with this person. Instead, they will respond with their own emotional connotation, and just shut down, shut me out. Second, I can avoid all emotionally-charged words, like liberal, and just try to discuss facts... a rather typical liberal strategy, I think And a failed one, as Lakoff explains. For although we strive to go for hard facts and avoid emotional flaming, still the HEARER of the words can only absorb those facts within their own emotional framework. A third and much more successful strategy is to use words and entire ideas that appeal to the emotional connotations/framing of the conservatives mind.




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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. I do agree with your "three ways of handling it"
about words, but I'm also interested in "reclaiming" words. Like, when a word is a "negative" word but then the members of the community use it themselves with pride and can turn it around? I wonder how this happens -- and maybe it's not so much using it in our dialogs with conservatives as it is using it in our dialogs with ourselves / the media?
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Tangledog Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. Reclaim, recycle, reuse
Turning around words, or "reclaiming" them (that's a good way of putting it! :) ) is pretty hard to do. It takes either a lot of persistence or the word has to fill a need. Something in American society -- and maybe in the English language -- makes us averse to "words by prescription"; they have to feel organic. It's kind of like the principles of "buzz marketing"; once your customers find out it's marketing, you lose.

The Right wingers have succeeded in pocketing "empowerment" and turning "liberal" into an epithet -- though in fairness, Sixties movement types used "liberal" to insult people like Hubert Humphrey, so the word was already a punching bag by the time the Rushburgers got to it.

It's actually something the Right wingers are very good at. When we try it, it sounds more artificial. A lot of the brouhaha over "political correctness" was made possible by the very artificiality of some of the terms ("other-abled", gimme a break!), and because nobody on our side could, uhh, frame it as a debate over "civility", which is a very nice word that sounds like "civil rights" and "civic duty".

"Gay" is one of the few contemporary examples I can think of when an "outsider" group, not one funded by a wealthy Freeptank, effected a significant overhaul of the lingo.

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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. You just explained the failure of the liberal agenda in this quote:
"Ironically, my clinging to my belief is a perfect example of this! I continued to believe even though my own experience with people showed me I was wrong."

But the fact that we are smart enough to stop and think about these things proves we are better, ha ha! Like when you also said that

"One odd thing I've noticed as I read the book is that there are times when I almost get angry at it and have to put it down for a while to calm down before I can continue reading it. Have any of you had that experience? I can't quite put my finger on why this happens but I think that it may be because he's telling me things that I don't want to hear. That probably means that they are things that I should hear and think about. "

This is precisely where we have got to go.



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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. I think that you are definitely on to something here.
This could be a major strength for us. In fact we may have a real advantage over them because of this. We are willing and able to self-reflect and self-analyze. And when things make us uncomfortable, we don't necessarily back off from them. In fact, we can see that the discomfort may be a sign that we need to be objective and investigate further.
Of course they call all of this "moral relativism" or "being wishy-washy". We need to fit it into their frames. How about "having the discipline and courage to face the world as it really is and not as a weaker person would want it to be." That's a little long winded, how about "the courage to deal with the real world". That's still long, maybe "situational courage". But words like "situational" have a kind of "ivory tower" taint to them, we need something short and plain that clearly conveys the idea. If we can come up with something that turns flexibility, open-mindedness, and acceptance of ambiguity into strengths that fit into their frame it could be a major advance.
I think I've been rambling a little here but I hope you get the idea of what I'm looking for. Any ideas?
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Sorry for answering my own question but
I think I may have an idea. How about "realism" or, even better, "hard-nosed realism". The phrases "hard-nosed realism" and "hard-nosed realist" have, I believe, emotional connotations which should fit nicely into a conservative frame. At the same time that they have those connotations their denotation is the idea of accepting the world as it is, rather than as we would want it to be. In other words, objective evaluation of the facts. This may actually break through the resistance to science and "intellectualism".
Opinions? Do I have something here?
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. My mind is made up, do not confuse me with the facts
Hard-nosed realism is already in common usage. It means the sort of hard-hearted person who looks at the world without all the illusions and wishful thinking of things like compassion, love, community, and altruism.
I think what you want is something like "truth-seeker" which is someone who will keep looking, thinking, and therefore learning which often means (gasp!) changing your mind. That in contrast to the "truth-finder" who clings to their dogma in spite of contrary evidence. "I believe, help thou my unbelief" they pray whenever they begin to doubt.
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. 'truth-seeker' is definitely a term that appeals to many Christian
fundies that I have known.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. You may be right about "hard-nosed realism" but
I'm not convinced yet. A realist can be someone who accepts hard facts even if they go against their grain. Hard facts like "in some cases an abortion is the lesser evil" or "free markets simply don't work for healthcare" or "taxes are a neccesity if we want a civilized society" or "we're screwing up the climate when we drive our cars" or "if we don't provide a safety net then the whole society will eventually suffer" etc. A realist realizes that an adult has to live with uncomfortable truths and change their behaviour accordingly. They realize that when some adults won't do this then it may be necessary for a benevolent authority figure (the government) to impose those behaviours on them. This fits in with Lakoff's "strict father family" model. Maybe "hard-nosed realism" isn't right but something similar may be.

"truth-seeker" doesn't sound right to me. It has a touchy-feely air to it. I think conservatives will associate it with things like new age spiritualism and reject it.

Of course, I could be completely misunderstanding Lakoff since I haven't fininshed the book yet. My understanding so far is that we need to fit our ideas into their "strict father family" frame rather than somehow causing them to accept our nurturant frame. Am I wrong about this?
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Fleurs du Mal Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. I disagree
'My understanding so far is that we need to fit our ideas into their "strict father family" frame rather than somehow causing them to accept our nurturant frame.'

I think Lakoff warns against exactly this. You want to avoid evoking the strict father since the baggage it brings almost automatically leads people to positions contrary to our own. That's the utility of the frame in a nutshell: you get so much with so little.

We have to *somehow* tap in to the nuturant part of people when it comes to political and social issues.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Yes, you're right
I understand that better now.
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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. I don't think so
<<My understanding so far is that we need to fit our ideas into their "strict father family" frame rather than somehow causing them to accept our nurturant frame. Am I wrong about this?>>

I think he is pointing out that there are two approaches and we are letting them frame everything in strict father mode which is defining us in their terms. I think he is say we should try to frame things in our nurturing mode and not play into their hands.

KL
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Right, I think what Lakoff is saying
is that we should try to activate the nurturant parent model in these people, and we do so by speaking from our values, in our terms. Not trying to frame things in terms of strict father IMO....
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Tangledog Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. You're not rambling at all
Unfortunately, "situational" got killed by "situational morality" and "situational ethics", terms that had some philosophical value but quickly got snorted up Hugh Hefner's nose ("if it feels good, do it").

I happen to like "real" and thought that John Kerry was on to something with "the Real Deal". Real solutions to real trouble. (I even wonder if "problems" should be avoided when possible. After all, all we ever do is complain about problems.)

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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. "Real challenges" might be better than "real trouble".
"Real solutions to real challenges". Or maybe "Opportunities to make things different".
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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. a real eye opener
As long as our opponents draw the big picture, create the field so to speak, we are screwed. They have been very successful at this game for years and it is time to beat them at their own game. We can do it if we all start by organized framing. If you hear a good frame repeat it as many times as you can, at ever opportunity, sneak-em in whenever possible.

Here are some I have heard already:
War in Error
Social Security Phase-out
Regressives


We still need to be clear and simple in our response after hitting them with a new frame. Long winded, complicated explanations are more than a lot of people want to hear. Unfortunately people do not seem to want to think to much.

Some how we have got to get our leaders on TV repeating frames. Possibly we need to make sure every Democratic candidate and public official has this book might even include a brief summary in case they don't want to think too much either.

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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Huh, now there's an idea.
Call every Democratic congressperson and ask them if they've read Lakoff... if not, send 'em a copy!

Damn, now my vacation's over and I don't have TIME for this project! :P
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Tangledog Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. I've got very mixed feelings so far
Possibly because I read most of the first chapter while waiting in the auto dealership :) . But his writing raised more questions than it answered.

I'll probably go on too long here, and I hope it doesn't look to all of you like I'm jumping on everybody. I hope this generates some good discussion.

I buy his premise that the Right is more disciplined and stays more on target than we do. But he writes:

Every Wednesday, Grover Norquist has a group meeting -- around eighty people -- of leaders from the full range of the right.... They work out their differences, agree to disagree.... (p. 16)

That's one example. I don't know if it's literally true or metaphorical, but let me try to explicate my unease with his narrative.

His brief history of "conservatives are adrift" -> "conservatives organize" -> "conservatives bury their differences" -> "conservatives learn about frame theory" -> "conservatives take over the world every Wednesday chez Grover" is, or feels like, too much of a conspiracy explanation to me. (drm604, no wonder you're depressed!) I don't necessarily doubt that they do it; I just wonder if it's the core of their success, or if they're as collegial as all that. We're dealing with some big egos here.

I have not finished the book, so some of my questions may be answered as I progress, but what I need to know is George Lakoff's take (and yours) on a few problems.

Are Americans peculiarly susceptible to the "strict-father morality" that dominates everything? Is this something that Canadians and Scandinavians tend to lack? Or are their Freepers not as clever or organized as our Freepers? Is there anything going on in our society that has triggered an exceptionally strong susceptibility to, or longing for, "strict-father morality"?

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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well, re: your first point
on the vast-right-wing-conspiracy.... it may be :tinfoilhat: but it's certainly got a really big element of truth. I'm thinking now about the infamous Simen Rosenberg / Rob Stein PowerPoint, which I would loooooove to see. From NYT:

"Actually, Rappaport says he may be on to an answer. Last summer, he got a call from Simon Rosenberg, president of the New Democrat Network, a fund-raising and advocacy group in Washington. Would Rappaport mind sitting down for a confidential meeting with a veteran Democratic operative named Rob Stein? Sure, Rappaport replied. What Stein showed him when they met was a PowerPoint presentation that laid out step by step, in a series of diagrams a ninth-grader could understand, how conservatives, over a period of 30 years, had managed to build a ''message machine'' that today spends more than $300 million annually to promote its agenda."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/25/magazine/25DEMOCRATS.html?ex=1248408000&en=33cc7a145d2c66b9&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

Re: your second point, on the "strict-father" and the American mentality -- I think it ties in somehow with the "rugged individualist" myth which is waaaaaay prevalent in our culture.

Not sure how though... hmmmmmmm.....
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. 'rugged individualist', a concept very dear to much of the nation,
is a problem concept / 'value' because it implies that anyone can make it BIG completely on their own, just by persistence. Which,of course, is complete BS, as per statistics showing that there is almost no movement up from one class to another in our society. Where you are born, is where you will die...except for what is it, 3% or less?
"Rugged individualism" is a tool for blaming the poor for their poverty. This value hides the fact that the wealthy elite believe they are entitled to the benefits derived from the labor of the workers; that workers are not entitled to share in the wealth that they create and that can not be created without their labors. Furthermore, 'rugged individualism' then creates a sense of guilt in some who buy into the myth: it is my fault I could not be more successful. I am a failure.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Yep, "rugged individualist" is definitely not a Dem-friendly frame.
We need an new frame to emphasize the community side of life.
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Tangledog Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. O Marlboro Man, so alone and so noble
I asked Ms. Tangledog, a former minister in a mainstream-to-conservative denomination, to read at least a few pages, and she agreed from experience with a lot of what you and Lakoff are saying about "rugged individualism". She saw a lot of it in that community. It's kind of a debased form of Calvinism. The original idea was that the "elect" probably would be prosperous in this world, because prosperity is a natural by-product of living a good life (industriousness, sobriety, fidelity). Over time, and diluted by the more anti-intellectual strains of American Protestantism, this got translated into "I'm rich because I'm good-o, you're poor because you're a Bo-zo."

I personally agree with you that the myth of individualism can crush the less fortunate or less skilled who may not even know how much they buy into the myth, and how it's been used against them. I thought some of the anecdotes in Nickel and Dimed illustrated that well.



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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. Jesus on wealth as a by-product of living a good life:
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven. Give up what you own, and come follow me.

Somehow, I don't see Jesus as one who would give wealth to reward people for a good life....for that would make it more difficult for them to enter into eternal life with him, right?

Hey, Calvinists were Christians, right?
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. I think that it's probably not literally true, but more
metaphorical as you say. In fact, maybe he's framing things into a liberal framework in order to get through to us. The idea of people sitting around, working out differences, and agreeing to disagree fits right into how we think the world should work. I doubt that this is actually what happens. It's probably more that they're all reading and working from copies of the same playbook (Frank Luntz's "Briefing Book") or watching other cons and consciously or unconsciously taking their cues from them.

By the way, I never said I was depressed, just that I've gotten angry at the book several times.

As far as why it's happening in this country at this time - that's a very interesting question and hopefully he has some ideas about that further on in the book. It may simply be that a particular group just happened to discover these principles at this time and place and have put them to work to further their particular agenda. Maybe it could just as easily have been some other political movement that could have achieved this. At least that's what I'm hoping. What if it turns out that these "techniques" only work for certain types of ideologies and that ours is not one of them? We can only hope that that's not the case. But we certainly shouldn't put all of our eggs in this one basket (or any other basket for that matter).
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. re reading and working from copies of the same playbook
That would fit the profile of many people, who want to be involved but also desperately need to be simply led. A lot of the population simply craves strong leadership, and some of them would follow a strong leader into hell no matter what,just because they need a strong leader that much. Hmm, 59 million people come to mind...
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Just to clarify,
I was talking about politicians and "pundits" reading from the same playbook, not large parts of the general population. And I'm speaking of a real literal book; Franks Luntz's briefing book.
http://www.alternet.org/story/17034
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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. I think it is a winning strategy
I think the regressives have been very successful. I think framing in our nurturing way will resonate with people because I believe very few people are strict father figure 100%. That is why they use words like compassionate to appear sensitive even if it is hollow.

War is NOT the Answer
Respect the Troops
War Without End
Social Security Phase-out

KL
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Tafiti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. Not sure if there's a deeper psychological element...
...but Lakoff is clear when he says that EVERYONE possesses BOTH the strict-father and nurturant models, and apply them in different areas of their lives. The conservative "intellectuals" and think-tanks pounced on this, and framed their agendas to the strict-father model, since it best fits with conservative politics. The idea was to get people to NOT use their nurturant models, knowing that everyone (or nearly everyone) possesses it to some extent. This is what reframing is all about. Get people to see the world with nurturant eyes and minds, when appropriate.

And about how well conservatives organize - this is not conspiracy theory. They throw boatloads of money into these think tanks, recruit young, conservative "thinkers", and conduct conferences on this very thing.

I will post a VERY IMPORTANT article on this subject soon. It was written a few years ago, and gives wonderful insight into the conservative reframing machine.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
32. Some more thoughts...
Assuming that this is a winning strategy, and I think it probably is, some questions come to mind.

What happens when two opponents start using this same winning strategy against each other?

  1. Does the latecomer have much hope of a "rollback" of his opponent and if so how far back can he push them.
    • Can the two sides reach parity?
    • Can the latecomer actually achieve dominance?
  2. Does one side's ideology have a natural advantage over the other's with this particular strategy? If so, which one?
  3. Our oppenent is not static, they will see what we are doing and presumably react and fight back in some manner.
    • Is their current dominance analogous to a military highground and does it give them a large advantage?
    • How will they fight back? Have they anticipated that we will eventually catch on and use their own tactics against them, and do they already have a planned response?

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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. It is hard to say what they will do but
we need to be ready to modify our approach when they respond. It will take them time for them to adjust and may be we can make people start questioning their frame before they hit back. Some how I think we need to back their frame into a corner so they have no where to go. Like the war for example, show what war is doing and causing to all concerned and what might be a compassionate approach from our nurturing point of view. Some with the economy, not long ago the people of this country new that deficits were bad and a balanced budget was the goal. They have forgotten the old lessons like forcing people to your will by war just will not work.

KL
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
38. We don't need to move to the right but just to frame it for the centrists
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
39. Mine's in the mail.... waaaaa
I'll be joining you in a few days. I was on the Library waiting list, #127 of 212! I decided to end my misery and shell out the $!
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
41. Call for nominations and seconds of March books!
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Tafiti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
42. "Frank Luntz Does It For The Children"
This article was written by Andrew Ferguson in The Weekly Standard on September 22, 1997. Seems rather old, I know, but it is still very much relevant, and it will give you an idea as to how long the Republicans have been up to this reframing concept. All I had was a hard copy, so I had to transcribe it myself. There is plenty of discussion material in this article, so please read...

********************************************************************

Frank Luntz, a Republican pollster and one of the foremost "communications" advisers to Trent Lott and Newt Gingrich, has just posted a bulletin to congressional Republicans. It is a 222-page bulletin, a bulletin with 24 chapters and six appendices. It comes in a three-ring binder as white as Wonder Bread. It has an American flag on the cover. It is divided with colored tabs. According to my bathroom scale it weighs six pounds, but it probably weighs more since my kids are always screwing around with the scale. It is called "The Language of the 21st Century," and it was distributed to GOP lawmakers before the congressional recess. It is "the most serious effort ever made by either party to put together an effective, comprehensive national communication strategy for individual congressional and senatorial candidates." It is this and more, much more. It is a poignant peek into the psychological condition of the Republican party.

That sentence about it being "the most serious effort ever made, etc." comes from the plan itself. It carries Luntz's customary tone, which is immodest. Many Republicans say he has earned the right to be immodest. Just about every week, month after month, Luntz hops on a plane at Washington National Airport, flies to some remote corner of the Land Beyond the Beltway, drives to a shopping mall or a chain motel, and there holds a focus group. He pays each of his Jane Q. Publics and Average Joes $40 or $50 for their trouble. In return they sip Diet Cokes and eat catered ham sandwiches and for two hours tell him what they think about this and that - politics and politicians, issues and events of the day.

Luntz listens to them with great attention, and then he returns to Washington and consults with Gingrich and Lott, the titualar heads of his party. They listen to Luntz with great attention. They believe, as Luntz himself believes, that Luntz has a special understanding of the writhing, petulant beast that is the American public. He sees, with his own eyes, in those rented rooms at shopping malls and the shabby basements of chain motels, the way the beast responds to political messages. He has his finger on its pulse, his thermometer in its mouth. When the American public feels a draft, Frank Luntz gets the sniffles.

And he has discovered this: "The Republican party in 1997 is just like my mom."

Those are Luntz's words, too, and they come in the plan's prologue. "The Language of the 21st Century" is his summa, his attempt to compile most of what he has learned in his many sessions with the beast, and to convey to his Republican friends precisely what they must say to make the beast happy. For at the moment the beast is not happy with the Republicans. Like Mrs. Luntz, who spent years fruitlessly shouting English to her Portuguese-speaking maid, Republicans "mistakenly believe that if you speak loudly enough, your message will get through." But this is not the problem. This is the problem: "Linguistically, you are out of touch with the American people. They really think Bill Clinton feels their pain, and they really think you feel nothing."

From this premise flows Luntz's national communications strategy. His advice, as contained in his book, is highly practical and extraordinarily detailed. "In today's over-politicized environment, nothing is more important than using words and phrases that resonate with the American people," Luntz writes. "Words are everything." And he means it literally, so to speak. The great bulk of his advice consists of the locutions that have made the beast purr with pleasure in his focus groups. "We have found the words and phrases that will move the American people."

What is particularly appealing about this approach is that Republicans need no longer worry about ideas; politics has become a straightforward matter of phraseology. For example: Luntz tells Republicans they must never say they will "deny" government-provided medical care to illegal immigrants. Only 38 percent of the American people agree with that. But 55 percent believe it is right to "not give" government-provided medical care to illegal immigrants. For the candidate the soundbite practically writes itself. "We must not give..." and so on. You will note that the basic proposition is the same. Either way, the wetbacks get screwed out of medical care, which is the important thing.

The reason the beast dislikes "denying" benefits but is happy to "not give" them is that the beast wants to be nice. It likes nice things, not mean things or angry things. "If you spent countless hours talking with average Americans," says Luntz, who has, "you would know how deeply they want to regain the sense of 'belonging' and 'community' in their lives." This goes double for politics. Average Americans tell Luntz they disdain partisanship and harsh talk. He therefore offers a chapter on "How to Talk About Clinton." Republicans must tread lightly. "Any time you attack him too wantonly, you risk being perceived as partisan or mean." And so the successful Republican will be one who expresses "SADNESS, REGRET, DISAPPOINTMENT or DISMAY" at the scumbucket who is now sliming up the White House.

Specificity confuses the beast. "Put less emphasis on numbers," advises Luntz. "Speak in terms of people, ideas and visions. Don't talk dollars and cents." The more specific the language, the "less powerful" it will be. Things like argument and evidence will turn your listeners off. In his chapter on education, for example, Luntz writes that "it may have been widely proven that there is no correlation between educational spending and outcome, but no one believes it." Don't try to convince the beast otherwise, for it knows what it knows, even if what it knows isn't so. Argument implies contention, which implies unpleasantness. Persuasion implies intellection, which is likewise unpleasant. "You need to speak to the average American - someone who never graduated from a four-year college, watches about four hours of TV a day, and consumes a six-pack a week." A politician would be crazed to contradict the average American. It would be like taking away his beer or turning off his TV.

This is better: "We have identified four key phrases that should be included in every speech, interview, and every presentation that might make its way to the general public." Here they are. "Investing in people"; "Sharing the success"; "It's about the future"; and "We will face these economic challenges together." What do these words mean? Meaning is really beside the point. Words are used to create a mood.

"Perhaps the most powerful and effective word of this decade is 'challenge,'" Luntz has discovered. It stirs the blood; it sounds almost like Churchill, if anybody had heard of him. "But challenging the public to meet the challenge (so to speak)," writes Luntz, "is not enough. Americans want to know that you are they are fighting together for the common good. Your objective is to create a team-centered approach." You see? This is why you face the challenges together. As a team. Together as a team, facing the challenges that face us together. Not separately.

Education, Luntz says, "will likely be the most important issue from now until the start of the new millenium," so Republicans only have about 25 months to get the thing straight. His chapter on education is perhaps the longest in the book. "Everything in bold is meant to be written or said - word for word - in your speeches, press releases and brochures." Say this: "Education is about the future." And this: "All children deserve a chance at a quality education." And this: "the incredible challenges teachers face in the classroom." And this: "clear-thinking, morally-acting, putting children first legislation effort." And this: "I don't want one child to fall through the cracks."

"These phrases work," Luntz writes, "because they are simple, straightforward, non-controversial statements." (His emphasis.) "Your task is to talk about education in a way that makes your audience feel comfortable." So if you say this: "I support vouchers for school choice," you might as well just toss in the towel right now. Loser. Are you trying to make the beast uncomfortable? It doesn't like "vouchers"; it likes "opportunity scholarships." It doesn't like "school choice"; it likes "parental choice." "If a proposed change sounds complicated," Luntz concludes, "people will oppose it."

Suddenly, as you absorb "The Language of the 21st Century," a horrible thought obtrudes. Could it be...is it possible...that the beast is stupid? Luntz denies it, and in fact goes to great lengths to praise its wisdom, but the conclusion, if you read between the lines, is hard to avoid. He includes a section on how to write a good campaign letter, for example, and emphasizes that no parapgraph should be longer than six lines, lest the voter get bored. (Honey! Where's the beer?) He notes a few contradictions along the way, too. Many, in fact. Most Americans thought the Republicans went too far in their almost non-existent "budget cuts"; simultaneously most Americans thought the Republicans didn't go far enough in their attempt to change Washington." By two to one, writes Luntz, "Americans feel too much is spent on welfare, but by 10 to one, Americans think too little is spent on aid to the poor." And so on, and so on.

What's a Republican to do in the face of so many paradoxes? "Empathize," Luntz writes in his "Communications Checklist." And whenever possible, say this: "It's About the Children." When holding a town meeting, ditch the lectern and go into the audience with a hand-held mike. Be interactive. They need to know that you care. When they ask you about the balanced budget, say that a balanced budget is not about numbers, it's about people. When they ask you why about affirmative action, say that you support voluntary affirmative outreach. And another thing: Use newspaper clippings.

You may have noticed that all of the foregoing would fit comfortably on Bill Clinton, the Republican nemesis; much of the language indeed has been lifted from his lexicon. Still, Luntz insists he has faith in the beast. "You must not say what you do not believe," he writes. "Voters can spot an imposter a mile away." Then he adds: "We already have a president who will say anything and do anything to get elected. That should not be what politics is all about." Of course not. It's about the future. It's about the children.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
45. One issue I have
All the suggestions of being police and respectful.

Has this guy ever debated right wingers?

They are bullies and you have to stand up to them. They actually respect you more if you do. Most of us are uncomfortable being mean, but they are, and if you aren't they take it to mean you are admitting to weakness. They do not see things the way we do, so treating them the way we would have them treat us just gives them confidence to push further and stomp harder.

And it is respecting their views that makes their views respectable. Which is why they get more and more brazen and more and more confident and move more and more to the right, and then make that rightward shift respectable, and move further to the right, and so on.

And it is funny that in talking about avoiding their frame, the author still lets them control the debate - they do things right and we should do things their way, he says.

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