Brainwashing your children

Yeah, yeah, offensive subject title. But its a sensitive topic to me, considering I come out of a fundamentalist background and I have a lot of very negative baggage associated with it. What I'm curious about, however, is how parents both religious and otherwise raise their children with regard to their beliefs. I'm so terrified of putting my kids through the same mental anguish I went through when I "deconverted" that I leave the subject of religion alone. It's a topic that my wife and I struggle with because she's still nominally religious, but she knows how damaged I am and just sort of goes along with me. I want my children to be completely unfettered in finding their own way, but I want to make absolutely sure I have no bearing on their choices. What instruction I give them in religious matters is to keep asking questions and never be satisfied with any answer, even the ones I provide.

The last time I made an honest attempt was going to a UU church. The poor lecturer made eye contact with me and I swear she could feel my intense anger toward her and what she was saying, which, if I remember correctly, was about tolerating fundamentalist Muslims or something. Not a good day for me to show up at a UU meeting. Yes, I am seriously fucked in the head.

One of the big problems I've seen in fundamentalists (of any flavor) is that they were trained not to think critically, to ask questions, to inquire, "Why?", to tell the difference between sound reasoning and logical fallacies. Though-patterns when learned young will become life-long habit, as you can no doubt see in yourself.

If you will pardon the expression, brainwash your kids so they can think for themselves. :hi:

You merely have a strong reaction against the kind of doctrinal brainwashing that passes for normal in our society. The people I regard as fucked in the head are the ones who stand by while their children are forcefed fairytales disguised as truth, thereby crippling their ability to reason and think critically for life.

People swallow the dogma pill because the organized religions have had thousands of years to sugarcoat their snakeoil, making anyone who stands against the bullshit look like some sort of misanthropic monster.

I admire your courage in not biting your tongue. I only wish I could do the same, but I'm usually too "polite" to tell the king he's got no clothes.

children any other way.

However, make sure that you teach them SOME moral and ethical framework, because if you don't, first the commercial media will try to mold them into mindless trendoids, and second, if they arrive at late adolescence without some sort of consistent worldview, they will be easy prey for cultists.

Seriously, how much of the teachings of Christianity deal with true morals? Even setting aside the truly scary stuff, most of the doctrine concerns itself with belief in Jesus and the worship of god. None of that has anything to do with practical morality.

In fact, the most important thing about teaching religion is supplying your own moral code. Otherwise, how will your children be able to tell which teachings to follow? Should they hate gay people or love their neighbors? Kill unbelievers or turn the other cheek?

Without a clear moral framework that is independent and outside of the doctrine of the bibile, christianity becomes a very dangerous thing to expose your children to.

It can be taught inside the framework of the Bible.

That way lies fundamentalism...

Bible, would it?

The bible is no more a moral document than it is a scientific treatise. My objection was to your implication that without religion, the OP would somehow need to make up for a missing moral code.

"The bible is no more a moral document than it is a scientific treatise."

Why are you trying to force this opinion on others?

Most Christians see it as the source of their morality.

Simply put, if most christians see the bible as the source of their morality, they're simply wrong. Unless you already have a moral code -- either learned or inherent -- there's no way you can make sense of the conflicting teachings. Why place more evidence on the new testament than the old? Why place more emphasis on jesus' sermon on the mount than on his infamous "pearls before swine" comment?

It's because the people following this book have already pre-edited the content based on their own moral compass. Why do you think that it's always the LEAST moral people who always become fundies?

hence the "forcing" comment.

"Simply put, if most christians see the bible as the source of their morality, they're simply wrong."

So, you are right, and lots of other people are wrong.

"Unless you already have a moral code -- either learned or inherent -- there's no way you can make sense of the conflicting teachings."

OR, unless you have the ability to discern the important from the unimportant, the meaningful from those parts with lack of meaning, you can't make sense of the teachings. Have you considered that possibility?

"Why place more evidence on the new testament than the old? Why place more emphasis on jesus' sermon on the mount than on his infamous "pearls before swine" comment?"

See above. We are allowed to think, you know.

You point out that people need to think in order to interpret the teachings. In what way do they need to think? I'm guessing they need to think along these lines: "WTF -- Stone your children??? That is fucking batshit crazy....hmmm....blessed are the poor...much better."

In my mind, that's a moral judgement, and it comes from OUTSIDE the content of the text. The reason I say it so emphatically is that trusting the bible for moral guidance is the first step on the road to fundamentalism.

It can certainly be in the context of the text, the ability to discern and develop judgement can come from study of the text, and discussion of the text, or it can come from other life experience. Where does one learn critical thinking skills, the source of moral understanding? It certainly can come from Bible study, if one does it with the right group of people.

The Bible says many different things in different sections. It would be near-impossible to follow some of the more contradictory ideas at the same time.

You'll see what happens when someone gives this book to a person with no internal moral compass.

More and more evidence suggests that morality does not depend on critical thinking -- that many of our moral beliefs are inherent. Don't believe me? Just give one of two young siblings a bigger piece of cake and watch the moral arguments fly.

I agree that one can learn critical thinking skills from bible study, just as one can learn the scientific method by examining creationism. But once you get to the "it's all complete crap" conclusion, it's probably best to move on to more sophisticated texts.

That is an entirely different problem, and he certainly could use massive help in critical thinking skills. He exhibits extraordinarily poor judgment, and an inability to flop from his flip when he really, really needs to.

So, where do you get the "moral beliefs are inherent" idea? I think kids learn from what is modeled for them, but that it is definitely taught, not inherent.

but the idea has been around at least since Chomsky's work on inherent language abilities. At the very least, there is little evidence that "core" moral values (golden rule, etc) need to be taught.

ETA: I mean Dawkins' writings on genetics, though he refers to it in The God Delusion.

But some read it and believe it says abortion is wrong. Others read it and believe it says abortion is OK.

Some read it and believe it says homosexuality is wrong. Others read it and believe it says homosexuality is OK.

And so on, ad nauseum.

Your bible can indeed be a source of morality - but it's certainly not a source of any kind of standard morality. (Not that I believe there is one at all, of course.)

Love God and love your neighbor.

A whole lot of Christians think that "loving their neighbor" means they gotta do whatever it takes to keep them from being gay, or having an abortion, or even just being liberal. And that "loving god" means they must judge others on how well they follow their god's law as outlined in the bible.

is the best way to wash your brain of religion.

Teach them science, and tell them why you think that the probablities of god existing are almost nil. Unlike a fundy, you don't beat your kids if they ask questions, or FORCE them to believe what you do.

But if they aren't curious about religion, there is no use in bringing it up.

We're the sort who would probably argue with the Pope, with great respect of course, but we'd still argue.

Our kids know I've had my differences with our Bishop, but it's friendly.

If a family has a tradition of encouraging intellectual honesty and curiosity, which both my family and my wife's family do, then kids don't grow up with a lot of negative baggage.

Would you let "let them be" if they decided they don't want anything do do with religion, and became atheists?

Encouraging intellectual honesty and curiosity are important, and I'm glad that thats how you raise your kids.

They go to Mass, confirmation class, etc., just like they go to school. The grumble about it sometimes, but it's something that just is, and sometimes you get to do a lot of goofing around with your buddies so it's not that bad.

After that, who knows?

I have two siblings who are atheists, to the point where they tell well-meaning in-laws that they are atheists so please stop sending the God emails, especially the James Dobson Focus on the Family sorts. Nobody sends me God emails anymore because they are afraid of my responses. They've shaken the dust off their feet and moved on, which is a pity because I think I've got God's home phone number around here somewhere. Me, I've never had to use a phone to talk to God.

When I was a kid our family was Jehovah's Witness for a few years. This was my mom's reaction to a bad experience with the Catholic Church -- unfortunately some Priests are dumber than rocks and will compliment themselves for their own unwavering solidity instead of actually solving problems... but that's another story. Anyways, my mom got booted out of the JW's Kingdom Hall because she couldn't stay out of politics. She was always hanging out with Alan Cranston and his staff and other politicians making a lot of noise.

After the JWs quit us there was a period when my Mom's car sported "Choose Life" license plate frames, and she was busy convincing unwed moms that it was fun to be pregnant and have babies. God knows my mom thought so, she wouldn't have stopped having babies except for a breakdown in her reproductive machinery.

But these days my Mom's sort of hostile towards religion once again. My dad just rides these things out. He'd rather go fishing than go to church anyways, and feels closer to God that way.

Religion has never been a divisive issue in my family, or my wife's family -- it's never been something that splits us apart. We would much rather argue religion, or even fight about religion, than to cut somebody off because we disagreed with their religious or anti-religious opinions.

Our poor kids don't have anything to rebel against, they've got relatives who range from very pious Catholics to Atheists, from Baptists to Pagans. I think it easier for them just to go to Mass than to choose something else.

I mean...we can talk about "letting people choose", but what you are taught as a child has a lot of impact on what the kids will believe when they are older.

If one of your kids...say, when they are 12, tells you..."Dad, I don't believe in god. I don't want to go to church", would you let them stay home, or would you say.."get ready, kid..your going"?

...all they'd do is stay home and play video games.... Woohoo! The theology of Final Fantasy VII. You could write a thesis on that.

Every once in a while we'll get into a decent argument with our kids beyond the usual sighs or mutters of "well, that was lame..." (they probably really meant "that sucked," but we have a zero tolerance policy for cussing 'cause we're all so good at it) and that makes forcing our kids to Mass worth it. I also like to pick them up in my old truck, which they find mortally embarassing. Oh please God, no, he's driving the truck... It teaches 'em how to talk to God, see?

I went one year to a high school that had mandatory religious services every day. Often it was boring. I thought about girls. I thought a lot about girls. At lunch we'd walk down to the river, take our shoes off, and get our feet wet. Me getting my feet wet with girls. I thought about girls. Don't know what the religious service was about, I was thinking about getting my feet wet with girls.

I know so many people who were screwed up by their dentist.
The dentist chair is a torture device.
Dentists are evil!

Adults are always forcing you to do things that are supposedly character-building, will give you a good sense of values, yada, yada. How many kids would go visit poor Aunt Tillie unless they were forced to do so?

Some of this "character-building" is crap, some of this not. Part of the process of separating from your parents and establishing your own life is deciding which to get rid of and which to keep.

You said: "What instruction I give them in religious matters is to keep asking questions and never be satisfied with any answer, even the ones I provide."

What more can you do?

Teach your kids to ask questions, find answers, and then ask questions about the answers. Strangely enough, it is harder to teach kids to disbelieve than teaching them to believe. Work on the disbelief and the rest will take care of itself.

My step-grandchildren are being raised without religion (their parents are not so much atheist but in the "don't know and don't care" category.) And I don't think church is very much in their minds, even though their cousins are being raised Christian. When the kids get together, the visit's usually about playing outside or video games.

Most of the parents I know have been confronted with questions they didn't relish answering. (One was 'how far is up?' No explanation seemed to satisfy the kid, particularly the scientific ones.) But I imagine any good parent wants to give his/her children the values and the 'tools' they need to live. And I imagine you'll be no different.

being Jewish in England was still fairly negative, and many young parents decided to let their kids do-their-own-thing, in a happy-hippy kind of way. That's all well and good, but being Jewish is about LIVING it, learning it, and loving it. If you don't grow up >>>>IN<<<< it, its very difficult to experience the pleasure as an outsider later. The step for an 8-day old boy is taken for him, and a step towards his 13th birthday also needs to be taken prior to that event. A 13 year old needs to have not only done atleast a years learning, but should appreciate his culture, and understand it, from the inside. (And for a girl too of course).
If you are going to let them do-their-own-thing I doubt they'd have made their mind up by 10 or 11, early enough to even attempt to play catch up on learning to read and write a foreign language, that their fellow 11 and 12 year olds have come to master.
My Mum's friends kids became scared of Judaism, they didn't know what it was about, they had no understandning of it within them. They had missed the boat, and the boat, apparently, sails young!

My kids are 10,8 and 5. They go to a Jewish school. They (well, not the 5 year old) know the prayers better than me already. They love their school, they are safe and happy, and they enjoy DOING their religion.

If my kids choose to leave the religion atleast I gave them the understanding first.

My Mother's friends kids never knew the choice they were supposed to have been making, and they all left Judaism far behind them, to their parents absolute horror and sadness.

I believe life is for living and have NO problem if my kids are gay, they can marry ANYONE they want, or be celibate - its THIER life; just as long as they are happy. But I know I have done the absolutely right thing by gifting them their religion by nurturing them with it, and within it.

Also, and this is important, I love Judaism. I think its an awesome, well-rounded, grown-up, mumbo-jumbo-free and head-fuck-free religion, so I am happy to pass it along. If I felt negative about it of course I wouldn't know what to do either.

So, Toddaa, I think you need to sort yourself out good and proper before you can offer anything positive along the line. You should be happy and contented about SOMETHING to give your kids. I don't know what, and I don't know how either, but I imagine there is some love of something inside you, without the negative baggage. Perhaps you should go back to the UU and ask for a 1-2-1 with their leader (priest) and see if the angle can be widened a little. I hear its a good door to open if you can.

TRYPHO
On edit: If this comes across like nonsense forgive me, its 3am and I'm exhausted!

My 4-year-old goes to Jewish pre-school and he knows the prayers (in Hebrew) to put me and my wife to shame. The school is in a conservative synagogue and it teaches more about the traditions, practices and identity. The spiritual part is for the kids to figure out on their own when they are ready.

Kids hear the stories and they have a pretty good bullshit sensor and they are not afraid to ask questions. The key is being honest to your kids and answering with your sincere point of view and not to bullshit them with stuff you don't believe in.

In Toddaa's case, I think he is better off teaching what he thinks it's right and his wife will teach what she thinks it's right. That's obvious and he knows that but it's probably important for Toddaa (every time I write this name I think of the Hebrew word "todah") to be honest with his kids about his own upbringing to scare the shit out of his kids so they don't fall for missionaries and choose the path of becoming ultra-religious later in life.

There are many cases of secular Jews who refrain from talking about religion to their kids. When they become teenagers there are youth groups of missionaries who will try to persuade kids to the way of religion. You see, a lot of fundies come from atheist parents.

In our community we have problems with "Jews for Jesus". Most "Jews for Jesus" come from secular families who did not teach Judaism to their kids and never taught how Judaism abhors fanaticism. Jews for Jesus are Christian fanatics of the worse kind and secular Jews are their favorite (and easiest) prey.

My sister has not set foot in a church (we're Catholic) since she left home. She did not baptize either of her boys or give them religious training. The eldest converted to Mormonism, and while I know many lovely Mormons he really went overboard; even the church elders were concerned about him.

My other sister is raising her girls Catholic, and while they were kind of halfhearted about the confirmation thing church has provided a nice social outlet for them: they provide the music, and all play instruments. The one is now proficient on the sax, piccolo, flute, piano and guitar.

I'm not Jewish, but I've heard people other than you say things like "being Jewish is about LIVING it, learning it, and loving it." Fundie Christianity isn't like that. It's about right thinking, always believing only the correct, biblically based things to the exclusion of all else. In alot of ways, it's not a way of life; community always seemed kind of incidental when I was at Fundie churches, it was about being right with God.

I don't think, necessarily, that all children raised fundie will grow up either totally brainwashed or totally angry, but I do think that it does something different to a child than raising him or her Jewish.

I imagine fundies are begatting fundies and catholics begatting catholics, and so on, or there wouldn't be so many Christians in the world. They may all be angry, brainwashed, guilt ridden or whatever, but on the whole its not stopping them putting their kids through the same mill.

TRYPHO

as a cultural thing. My children are steeped in it. However, when they asked me about the basic mysteries, I was honest and said I chose to believe and that I didn't really know, and that they should make up their own minds. Then I said "now get dressed for church!" Because it was a requirement.