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Why do some DUers think being Christian means you need to be a whiney little baby?

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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 07:36 AM
Original message
Why do some DUers think being Christian means you need to be a whiney little baby?
Does that subject line piss anyone off? It probaly should. Get my point?
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. For those of us who don't necessarily make the intuitive leap,
just exactly what is your point and as opposed to what?
Do they? I don't know any who do, but I am not familiar with all one hundred thousand plus registrants.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Sorry
Forgot that this goes on the Discuss page for the first bit. It is a reference to a similar thread about atheists in R/T. My apologies.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. That sounds more like a description of you secular fundies.
Sounds to me like you're the one doing the whining. And even starting a thread with it. How sad is that!
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Bill O'Reilly?
Is that you. And you forget that the term is secular progressive. But I'll let it slide this time, Billy boy.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. That's a good one! "Secular progressive!" I like it. As a matter of fact,
you people share his "fundie" extremist-type profile. Either fascists or Communists.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Please explain
Edited on Tue Apr-10-07 08:03 AM by Goblinmonger
using a definition if you would, how an atheist could be a fundamentalist. I eagerly await your retort.

On edit: don't you find yourself being a little scared that you actually like a phrase that Bill O'Reilly coined to describe the left?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. He's probably no more scared than he was by using the phrase "you people"
which I don't think features in any respectable post.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #7
24. Still waiting for your explanation
oh great jingoistic one.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Bill O. has him on hold
waiting for the talking points.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. So you can't explain it yourself?
and "dum dums"? Are you this guy?


I'll read that tonight when I'm not in class and get back to you.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. No. Not to you, or instead of there being just the one eejit, there'd be
two.

I can't win an argument with people who don't have the wherewithal to understand what I'm saying. People have to have certain shared assumptions or they'd be wasting their time arguing. That is evidently something that hasn't dawned on any of you yet. Nor would any sane Christian have the inclination to waste their time and energy on such a task. You won't find Christians going out of their way to convert you when you have a "fundie" mindset like that - like you yearn to engage Christians in discussions. You're losers. Get over it.

I very seldom even refer to atheists, other than parenthetically in the broader context of the anomie and havoc your faithlessness gives rise to in our Western societies.





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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. It is pretty damn simple if
you were as smart as you claim and understand the basics of argument.

1. Provide a definition of fundamentalist/ism.
2. Show how atheists could possibly meet that definition.

You have not tried that in any regard. Instead, you have just resorted to really shitty ad homs (I mean seriously, "dum dums" is pretty damn weak.)

But you do sound a little "fundie" when you say this, "the anomie and havoc your faithlessness gives rise to in our Western societies." Pray tell, can you provide some form of data and warrant to support that claim of yours or is this going to be another example of your baseless attacks on atheists. I am going with the latter. (in case it is too difficult for you, you might want to google Toulmin to find out what data, warrant, and claim are all about).
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. If you'd lived long enough to see the depth to which our society has sunk in its
degeneracy, as a result of the reduction of the influence of Christianity on our Western culture, you wouldn't need it spelt out.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. *spills coffee on to monitor*
Um....wow

"If you'd lived long enough to see the depth to which our society has sunk in its degeneracy, as a result of the reduction of the influence of Christianity on our Western culture, you wouldn't need it spelt out."

This post is really...heh...something else.


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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Oh, I agree
I LONG for the good old days of small pox blankets, burning people at the stake, crusades to kill the moors. I only WISH we had the moral center that christianity has to offer.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. Hey, remember when women couldn't vote, and the black people did our
work for us and WE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE TO PAY THEM! Ah..man...where did those good ol' days go...the days when a good christian women would get you your slippers. People weren't nearly so uppity back then...if they were, we would just lynch em.

And the hispanics.....oh man, they were great miners.

Wait a sec.....
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. And remember, it was mostly the non-conformist churches who led the
fight against slavery in the US.

When the subject of the contributions of atheists in the post-Katrina assistance came up, one of your bright sparks said that they were too modest to let people know what work they'd done there for the victims...

The only thing that unifies you fundies is negative. You all hate Christianity. What else unifies you? Pass...
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. Yeah, I pretty much hate christianity.
I think its dumb, but what does that have to do with anything? I still like individual christians, for the most part...I'd hate to think that I hated my gf!

"And remember, it was mostly the non-conformist churches who led the fight against slavery in the US. "

Yep, and we've degenerated ever since. It was way better back then, remember?


"When the subject of the contributions of atheists in the post-Katrina assistance came up, one of your bright sparks said that they were too modest to let people know what work they'd done there for the victims... "

Yeah, its too bad about that whole New Orleans thing...but what do you expect from our degenerate society. God is mad at us for tolerating lesbians and gays.


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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. That was largely the work of atheist politicians masquerading as Christians.
Edited on Tue Apr-10-07 03:31 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
Remember, at the higher levels, the institutional Christian Church was debased by Christian "fundies" throughout most its history.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Isn't that special.
When christianity does something shitty, all you need to do is blame it on the atheists.

Got any evidence to back that up or is this just more gasbaggery?
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. By their fruit you shall know them. Compelling circumstantial evidence, of course.
Edited on Tue Apr-10-07 03:40 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
The most powerful evidence of all. But then, you think everything that counts can be counted, don't you? Or measured under laboratory conditions!
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. So because they don't fit your definition of Christian
they have to be atheists? Are you really that deluded?

Oh, and Data, Claim, Warrant.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Aaah, you nearly fergetted.
Edited on Tue Apr-10-07 03:46 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #62
87. You have no idea just how deluded. He's an ID Pusher.
Ask him to tell us again how stupid all of us fundamentalist evolutions are again, it's hysterical. :rofl:
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #61
86. Hmmm, now I will attempt to show your reasoning circular:
1) By their fruit shall you know them. (This bit is moderately true)

2) There are a number of people, some good, some bad.

3) We know that Christians are good, because there are no examples of Christians doing bad things.

4) Therefore those that do evil are atheists, not really Christians. They were just praying to, umm, praying to their atheist Lord Jesus Christ.

5) Since there are no examples of Christians doing evil, Christians are good. (This is the same as (3))

If you cannot show your reasoning to be different to this, or you can't show that this is not circular, then this will take the premise that your reasoning is circular to a QED and you will have effectively lost.

Go ahead, respond. Make my day.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #57
70. LOL!
Man, I wish I was at my comp at home so I could bookmark this! Hmm....I'm kinda wondering where all those "Nobody insults atheists on this forum" people are. They always miss the good stuff!

"That was largely the work of atheist politicians masquerading as Christians. Remember, at the higher levels, the institutional Christian Church was debased by Christian "fundies" throughout most its history."


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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
82. HOLY SHIT! I'm glad I wasn't drinking when I read that.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Wow - talk about the very worst of Christian triumphalist assholery.


















BWUHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!


:eyes:

Sorry, I have to laugh at idiocy. Has Christianity had a moral influence on western society? Yes, of course it has - in very positive, but also in saly very negative ways. Is the "degeneracy" of modern culture a result of lack of influence of Christianity? Fucking hell no, for two reasons: 1) It just isn't; and 2) there is no degeneracy, anyway, except that caused by rightwing fundamentalist Christians and muslims.

(As a caveat, I say this as a Christian who is very open here on DU about my faith and my seriousness of it)
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
59. "... the anomie and havoc your faithlessness gives rise to in our Western societies..."

You needn't take it any further, sir. You've proved to me that all this ultraviolence and killing is wrong, wrong, and terribly wrong. I've learned me lesson, sir. I've seen now what I've never seen before. I'm cured! Praise god!



:eyes:



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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
83. I'm. Gonna. Die.
Fuck me if

"you when you have a "fundie" mindset like that - like you yearn to engage Christians in discussions. You're losers. Get over it.

I very seldom even refer to atheists, other than parenthetically in the broader context of the anomie and havoc your faithlessness gives rise to in our Western societies."

didn't run right past the end of my hypocrisy meter and slap the setting "you could use the self-righteous anger to power seven hurricanes" right in the face.

:rofl: I'm nearly choking in laughter. :rofl:
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. anomie and havoc
That has to be the best post of the day. When I read it I was too dumbfounded to respond. I'm grateful to those who could.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. OK, it's my prep and I need a break
Edited on Tue Apr-10-07 02:52 PM by Goblinmonger
so I read your little tome. Here are the problems I have.

1. Nowhere does this explain how an atheist can be a fundamentalist. Look up the word fundamentalist and get back to me with a description of how an atheist could be one.

2. Secular DOES NOT equal atheism. Fighting for a secular society is not analogous to trying ton convert the unbeliever. It just means that religion needs to keep the hell out of politics. Contrary to what your article says. Or are you trying to argue that a secular government is a bad thing?
Once the campaigning atheist has seen the light, they remain on-message, keen to convert all unbelievers. Last week, as Maryam Namazie picked up her award for Secularist of the Year, she proposed "an uncompromising and shamelessly aggressive demand for secularism. Today, more than ever, we are in need of the complete de-religionisation of society."

Notice it does not say that religion needs to be abolished but just not a driving force of society.

3. It seems to me that your little article falls into the same trap that so many in here do. As long as the atheist keeps their yap shut, there aren't any problems. But once they start talking about why they don't like religion, they are evil sons of bitches that need to be silenced or compared to fundamentalists.
While the ordinary atheist remains indifferent to religion and all its ways, the born-again atheist has adopted the worst arrogance of Christian fundamentalists - just in negative.


4. Perhaps things are different in England, but this quotation seems totally screwed up:
In truth, atheism is about as alternative as Rod Stewart.

In a country where 90%+ claim to be theists, I have a difficult time seeing how atheism isn't a minority and clearly not the mainstream.

5. This person is pretty damn full of themself
As religion returns to the geopolitical scene with frightening malevolence, secularists ought not to be handing out awards and congratulating themselves. They must first try to understand religious belief. That means dispensing with their own self-congratulatory piety: it's the only route to an effective challenge.

Please tell me how atheists don't understand religious belief. It is nowhere in the article. The article is about atheists being old hat and really, really rude. But it gives no convincing data for the claim that atheists don't understand religion.

I think the article is just bullocks and from someone who has a problem with atheists being vocal.

And NOWHERE does it explain how atheists can possibly meet the definition of fundamentalists which is what I asked you for since you made the damn claim.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. All that trouble, in the hope that I'd be gagging to apprise myself of your thoughts.
Edited on Tue Apr-10-07 03:07 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
Sorry to disappoint you. You're welcome to your adolescents' "atheist's chic" - straight out of the 19th century.

I'll tell you whose thoughts you'd find intellectually stimulating, though. The volestrangler.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. So let me get this straight.
In my request for you to explain how atheists can be fundamentalists, you call me a dumbass (oh, wait, no, a dum dum) and tell me to read your precious article while telling me that it will be too difficult for me.

I read said article and respond as to why I think it is a crock of shit using actual examples to explain myself rather than just making baseless comments.

You come back with another ad hom.

I'm starting to think that you really bring NOTHING to the table as far as real argument. I'm starting to think that you are just a gasbag that can't really discuss anything of substance.

But, I guess you are superior to me and that I am not worthy of your intellectual discussion.

On third thought, I'm going to go with gasbag until I see something of substance.

REMEMBER: Data, Claim, Warrant. Three beautiful things that can actually form a cogent argument. You might want to look into picking some up. Or don't they offer that anywhere in the UK?
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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. I offer it in the UK. Apparantly he isn't ineterested in asking.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. But you are just
an atheist dum dum. He must not shop in your district.
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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. I bet he's gone to Oxford Street at least once.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. "secular fundie" makes no sense at all
does it?

I understand why some might see the raising of voices done by the secular/agnostic/atheist crowd as whining or even scary, but I don't think it's too difficult to look at our society to figure out why.

Most of the above tend to stay quiet about their non-belief because they have to, and to be polite. Sure, there are some that are loud about it, but the truth is most people don't discuss religion in conversation. And the ones I personally know who are loud about their non-belief come from religious families and have a grudge.

But anyway, look at how the Religious Right - completely backed by the mainstream media - are trying to tear down the wall of separation of church and state. This country was never meant to be a theocracy, yet more and more there has been a concerted effort to make it so. Those of us of either no faith or of minority faiths generally resent this, and as we feel we are being pushed further and further into a corner, are starting to raise our voices and "fight back."

So I guess if you want the alleged "secular fundies" to shut up, then perhaps you could work with them to prevent the Religious Fundamentalist Extremists from taking over and ruining a great country. Does that make sense? It makes a lot more sense than trying to equate people who cannot change their belief systems which are based on an "infallible" 2000 year old book (which is full of contradictions) to people who are just trying to ensure that America remains free and open to all beliefs and non-belief and everything in between.

So if being for keeping America is "fundamentalist" then I suppose so is fighting to keep all of the other rights which make this country great.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. That makes sense
There would be a lot less screaming if they would quit poking us with those sticks.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. exactly.
if anything, I am very much a live-and-let-live type of person, but when I feel pressured to start jumping into someone else's line, then I might get a bit irritated and vocal.

I wonder if half a century ago people wished "those uppity black folk" would just be quiet, then everyone could be happy.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I lived in the deep south 50 years ago
Edited on Tue Apr-10-07 09:14 AM by cosmik debris
And your observation and comparison are dead on!!!!
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. PZ Myers has suggested adopted that expression
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. thanks for the link!
and once again, I love the comments section (which is surprisingly relatively free so far of adolescent arguing).
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
26. Totally expected from you, KCDM the 3rd.
Way to rise above the fray and act like a good example. Jesus must be smiling on you.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
107. Haven't you heard?
He is god!
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zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
68. considering that you theophiles
start whining if everybody else doesn't start licking the boots of your god after the first idiotic claim you make. while I see the atheists actually stand up for their ideas.
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MistressOverdone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. LOL you have a point
you know the picture of Jesus with all the children around him? There is a famous painting, and lots of stained glass renditions of it.

Well, as a teacher, I KNOW that was a photo op. I am sure Jesus loved the little children, but I am CERTAIN that right after that he told them to go and hush and color somewhere.

He did say to have faith as a little child; perhaps some of us take it too literally?
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. This atheist says ....
Huh ?

Did you ever tell a joke where you had to explain the punchline ?

Kinda ruins the whole joke ....

This joke is over .... PLEASE dont explain it ....
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. See #4 above n/t
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
10. Are these types of thread headings meant to show how unsure and insecure the OP is or how unsure in
his beliefs others are?

Does daily putting headings like "Christians and whiny little baby" in thread titles exhibit a personal projection of internal deficits onto others caused by low self esteem, or is it some other mental disorder?

Does that Question "piss anyone off? It probably should. Get my point?"

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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Come on, papau
You hang out in R/T. Why didn't you express this outrage when the same basic subject heading was made about atheists? Why didn't you chime in about that guy's asshole actions?

Oh, yeah, that other thread was about atheists and this one is about Christians. At least your motive are clear now.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
12. maybe because for well over 6 years we have had to deal with
christian whiney little babies?

orrrrrrr..because Chrisitans have called us whiney little babies, when we point out the lies and hypocracy by those in this admiistration and those who support this admiistration, and identify themselves as Chrisitians.

Personally i have had people who identify themselves as Christians ( even though i am christian,i do not go around identifying myself as christian..don't think it nessessary) who when i have confronted Christians and friends that are christians.....serious lies..life and death lies..

they shrug their shoulders and remind me that they are Chrisitian and republican..like that exonerates them from truth...and they complain that i am being whiney....

about the truth!!

sometimes dealing with people with closed minds ..and an ideology ..and a total lack of reasoning..

is hitting them witn a dose of their own medicine!!

just my 2 cents..fly

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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
13. Why is opposing bigotry considered "whining" by a very small subset of DUers?
I know, I know, one can't be a bigot if all one hates is Christians...
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. It's not
My OP was a response to your OP to show how inane and offensive it was.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse; nobody could miss this many things.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. I'll continue to confront bigotry, even if it's called it "whining" by one or two DUers.
Now, I'm off to enjoy mother nature's wonders as the woods behind my house wake up from a long, cold winter. Enjoy your day!
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Maybe you could start with producing the example you were asked
to produce. It would be very helpful to see what you are talking about. Otherwise I'll have to assume paranoia or flame bait on your part.


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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. I wasn't calling it whining.
My post was a satire of yours to show how offensive yours could be. You really don't get it, do you. I'm sorry.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:10 PM
Original message
Deleted message
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
37. Dude, can you please stop with the ad hominems. It is not necessary.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Deleted message
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. I think you need to take a deep breath and calm down.
Oh yeah...and christianity sucks ass

BWAAHAHAH *runs away laughing as KCDM tries to hit him with a broom*
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Well, I nearly gotcha!
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. You had to toss in an ad hom
while saying you would stop it didn't you. Was that a test to see if I'd recognize irony?

My 40 year old brain thanks you for calling me a young whelp so maybe it wasn't an ad hom.
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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Ah yes, if all else fails accuse your opposition of being 'too young to understand'
Fuck, there are dead people who disagree with you. Are they more right than you are?
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. I don't think there are many people more Right than this guy.
Even dead people. ;)
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
43. Ooooh, your ad homs are getting a little better.
Though dopey is still pretty weak.

I would know a misplaced comma if I saw one though.

Yes, because verbal irony is the only kind. Don't forget situational and dramatic. They get lonely if you don't talk about them, too.

Lest you think I have forgotten, I'm still waiting for some Data, Claim, and Warrant as an entree to go with your feeble appetizer of ad hom.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Argument
I know it is foreign to you. Provide me with data and warrant to back up your claim that atheists are fundamentalists. Is that REALLY that hard for you to understand?
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Wa..a...a..a..y... too difficult.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. OK, it's obviously over
You have no substance to offer to back up your claim that atheists can be fundamentalists. And since you have nothing, you have resorted to this jackassery that is in this thread. Until I see something of substance, my only response will be data, claim, warrant.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #53
63. Excellent. It's what I'd hoped. I don't want to see you degraded beyond recognition.
One of the precepts of the Mosaic law passed down to Moses by Yaweh, was that the Israelites were not to whip a miscreant more than a certain number of times, "lest they become degraded in your eyes".

It's normal for young men to be somewhat loopy, and I wish you all very well, despite my "ad hominems"! I just can't resist taking the rise out of you sometimes, when you try to start a flame war with Christians.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Data, Claim, Warrant
I think it is clear to all reading this that you have provided only a claim with no support for it. Don't get all full of yourself. You have whipped me exactly NO times because all you have is baseless claims which are meaningless.

Now go ask your mommy if supper is done. (See, now THAT is an ad hom that isn't as weakassed as yours).
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. The biter, bit! Great wailing and gnashing of teeth over here. An "ad hominem", no less.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Data. Claim. Warrant
It was an ironic use of an ad hom. Sorry if that went over you head.

So where is the substance to your argument about atheist fundamentalism?
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. A lesson I learned after arguing with a taxi driver the other day:
After about fifteen minutes, it dawned on me that he enjoyed arguing for it's own sake.

Just sayin'...
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Now, you're slipping again. You started off OK, then fergetted and
started argifyinn'.

Remember:

Data. Claim. Warrant.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. Dammit, I'm gettin pissed here.
I'm supposed to be the cranky old man in this forum not kcdmIII. I'm feeling a definite loss of status. And all this has to come during my Holy Period. You guys got no respect. I'm gonna do some serious pouting now.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-12-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
114. I'm still waiting for you, buddy.
Oppose that bigotry. I want to post that apology I told you about, but you aren't giving me the opportunity. Put on that cloak of rightousness and have at it.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
28. I would like to add a thought to this thread, if I may...
People are basty nastards-a lot of 'em.
People are wonderful, inspiring, delightful critters-a lot of 'em.
There are people who are so in touch with life and the joy of being creative and valuable that they want words and thoughts that soar with the aliveness that they experience.
Sometimes that high flying experience is so overwhelming that the language attributing worship and even supernatural in-tune-ness is the only language that will fit. If it works for them, what is wrong with that?

Words are just a poor method, a rock and club method, of trying to communicate that experience to the outside world-outside of self, that is. It doesn't matter one whit whether those words are spelled Allah, Jesus, God, Jesu, Yaweh, Sky Pilot, The Is, FSM, or nothing at all,whatever; it just doesn't matter! The only thing that has any real value is the person and their experience and that person should be, and needs to be loved, honored, quoted; they need to be experienced.

Anger, barriers, ridicule, all these are the faces of fear and the only way to get past that fear is to embrace it, experience it, be it, but don't use that as an excuse to do anything about it in the real world.
We have all been hurt but we are not the pain. We don't have to use that pain as a weapon or a fence to keep others out of our space.

We all come here, that is, the ones of us who want to be here, to associate with like-minded others. Open minds, willing to discuss any damn thing in the whole world with the solid assurance that the other DU denizens will treat us kindly, will respect us for what we are, no matter where we are on the road to enlightenment.
Never, ever ever need we treat ourselves or others with contempt.

All I ask of my fellow seekers is that they don't lie to me or themselves. Be authentic, tell the truth and try to be clear that anybody we meet in this crib desperately needs the very same attention and respect that we, ourselves need.

We are not republicans. We do not need to have the hollow reward that comes with making fun of others, calling them contemptuous names or deriding their progress on the great road. I may have have easily glided through whatever spot you are struggling with but I have no right to suggest that there must be something wrong with you because it's giving you trouble or I might be mistakenly thinking it's I who's ahead. You might be miles ahead of me and I truly have no idea what your fight is.

The way the travel on this road works is that wherever we are is exactly where we need to be, although we will make up all kinds of stories to show that we are the real hero, the one who has the really, really right slant on everything and all else is, somehow, less glittering. That's the way humans work, the way we're programmed.

We do not have to be like or think like someone else, nor do they have to be like us.
I honor you, my brother, my sister, and I recognize and applaud you on your path; it's the right path for you and you are the right person to be there, where ever you are. Life would not be complete without you.

Thank you for allowing me to be in your beautiful, precious experience. You're welcome.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
85. That's cool, but the thread was about some of the barriers to really accepting
each others choices as worthwhile. :)


For instance, our friend upthread's view that all atheists are evil scum who cause only chaos and death is not particularly helpful. :)

Our friend says:

"you when you have a "fundie" mindset like that - like you yearn to engage Christians in discussions. You're losers. Get over it.

I very seldom even refer to atheists, other than parenthetically in the broader context of the anomie and havoc your faithlessness gives rise to in our Western societies."
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
36. Psstttt....with most crowds, satire is obviously not the way to go.
Edited on Tue Apr-10-07 03:10 PM by Evoman
Some people are the dumb to appreciate it, others know its satire but are disengenious, and the rest are already aware of the irony/hypocrasy.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #36
54. But I'm just in one of those moods today.
I can't help it.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
67. Emotionally stunted. Probably had neglectful parents (or think they did, more likely).
Edited on Tue Apr-10-07 04:10 PM by Rabrrrrrr
(or else their parents were far too permissive, encouraging a totally self-centered personality, "OOoh, aren't you my special little one, and I'll take of every bad thing for you by making it go away because you're so special nothing you do can be wrong!") Maybe they just have a persecution complex, but then, that goes back to the emotionally stunted possibility.

They're just people who can't handle that someone else disagrees with and/or thinks differently than them, added to an absolutely firm (and paranoid immature) certainty that any debate or challenge or critique of one's views or beliefs is in fact an all-out nuclear assault meant to annihilate utterly.

Very much like how a rightwing piece of shit will consider a critique of a policy of Shrubbie's policies to be "America-hating", instead of just a critique of one Shrubbie's policies. (and said rightwing piece of shit will then critique a Clinton policy, and that's called "patriotism").

Like so much of the world and life, it just comes down to who is emotionally mature, integrated and self-differentiated, and who isn't.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
74. The Thread this one whines about was deleted: Proving the DU bias.
Well, is was preddictable, that's for sure.
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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. I thought we we starting to get somewhere on the other thread
I'm a little annoyed it is gone too. But you need to tone down the paranoia.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. I thought so too, cyborg. It is interesting what is and isn't allowed.
If its bigotry against Christians, or bigotry against atheists, I'll continue to oppose it.
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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. I think you have noble ideals but you're fighting the wrong fight
You are far too all-encompassing about what bigotry is.

Zombie Jesus isn't bigotry - it may offend, it may inflame, sure - but it isn't bigotry.

Inflammatory and offensive material alone isn't grounds for attack - the attack must be focused on what is WRONG.

When someone says blacks are stupid, don't say, "that's bigotry," say, "I can show that's wrong!"

It's more effective when it's not reduced to soccer hooliganism.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. I'm just wondering
Since you are such a fighter of bigotry, why haven't you piped in on the broadbrush attacks on atheism up above that are as bad or worse than what you are railing against? Or is it special varieties of what you see as bigotry that peeve you?

And this thread could still disappear.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. I don't read every post. - which ones up there concern you?
Bless those little devils who do, but I'm also reading email, IMing about the softball league draft with two other coaches, working on my webpage, listening to the BBC, playing on three poker tables at once, and watching my birdfeeders. Lots of cardinals and whitethroated sparrows this time of day. And we still need someone for firstbase.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #80
89. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. I'm a "dipshit" because I haven't read every post in the R/T forum?
Sorry, Opiate. I have a life.
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cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. See what I mean about seeing what you want to see?
The GP did not say you are a dipshit, he said you make yourself look like one by leaping without looking.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. Oh, I see. That way they avoid violating DU rules. How clever!
I could say cowardly, but of course I would never say that.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. Good question.
Where are all those wonderful christian defenders who always step up to bigotry. Lol...always seem to be inexplicably absent when someone that isn't christian is being attacked, no?

The last time I've noticed it so clearly was when someone made kinda disgusting claims about gays, and none of the "tolerant" christians stood up to him (although we sure did...).

They just don't post here when it happens so that they can keep pretending that it doesn't happen. Hypocrites!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #77
88. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #88
92. Call the Waaaaaaaaaaaaambulance! I sent you one single PM,
...challenging you to make similar posts in other forums. If saying you post like a "coward pretending to be a bully" is calling you "nasty names," I'm guilty. You responded by calling me a "coward" for contacting you via PM, but I didn't whine about it.
Have a nice day, beam.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. No, that's for whiney crybabies who can't back up their accusations in this forum.
I fight in the arena, unlike people who are only capable of sending snotty little messages.

What are you going to do next, give me a wedgie?
:scared:

Say hello to Betty for me.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #92
95. That's right, stick it to Bmus! Let's see her post things like this in Political Videos!
Drug policy forum also!

I see her bieng brave in R/T, but dare she post about religious topics in the New Hampshire forum? Or even the Comic Book forum?

Noooooooo!

You've been pinned there, Bmus. :rofl:
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. Calling people names instead of continuing to debate in an open forum is cowardly.
And he still hasn't answered the question, how is posting a cartoon to illustrate the difference between Sid's "No thank you" response and something that might really be offensive to christians "bigotry"?

Sid made a polite reply in papau's thread and was attacked for it, my cartoon was meant to illustrate the difference between his response and posting one like mine on Easter.

The exact wording:

"No, thank you" is NOT a rude response to the statement "The Lord is Risen"

Now, if the atheist in question had posted something like this on the other hand, you might have a reason to whine:"


The "this" was the Zombie Jesus cartoon.

Can you say "Duh" ?

If the point had whooshed over his head any faster you would have heard the sonic boom down under. :rofl:

Oh, and anyone who uses racial, gender based and religious smears like he does is obviously far more comfortable with them than I ever was.

I can't even TYPE the n-word, let alone say it.

And of course, I've never been known to stick up for christians in this forum and others, right, RA?
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. Just thinking about that before meant I went back and found this post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=92192&mesg_id=92503

That was so much fun. I posted that and then fell off my chair laughing.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. I'm visiting that post you linked to - good stuff
It'll take me a bit to read all of it, but it looks well worth the time. Thanks for sending the link along.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. Random_Australian, "it's not just about one poster or one thread,"
Edited on Wed Apr-11-07 04:54 PM by MethuenProgressive
Like I've already posted several times: "it's not just about one poster or one thread, it's about DU" - it seems that a few want it to be about one poster and one post, but it never was.
I had two threads removed, one asking why it's OK to post bigotry against Christians on DU, and one asking why a few anti-Christians felt the need to adopt Imus/Coulter style speech to make their points. Of course, I was attacked, and the threads were removed. One poster seems to want DU to think the only thing ever objectionable posted here was one intentionally offensive Jesus cartoon posted on Easter. Somebody wants to say that's high-minded and reasonable dialog, well - they have that right. but as I've said many times, it's not just one poster or one thread, it's about DU. I asked the forum if they'd be comfortable posting hate speech against gays or blacks in GLBT or the Obama forum (not "New Hampshire", but if you called them North Massachusetts it might cause a dust-up) - and so - if it's not OK to post targeted bigotry elsewhere, why's OK to direct bigotry toward Christians in R/T?
The answer I keep getting is that Christians deserve it, and since there's lots of them it's not bigotry.
I find that interesting. Not well thought out, but interesting nonetheless.
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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #98
101. People keep asking you to back up your ridiculous accusations of "violently obscene hate speech"
and you have provided nothing but more whining and accusations. So I'll say again, show this "violently obscene hate speech" or quit making accusations.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. I've already done that, and you had my threads and posts deleted.
Now you're drooling as you try to get me banned from posting altogether? Good luck to you, but I'm on to your act. As advised (by you, wasn't it?) now I just hit alert, and watch the mods leave them up.
Why don't YOU show us the most offensive posts directed at Christians you can find? And then you can further defend DU's policy that bans bigotry - unless it's aimed at Christians.
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. Why don't you do your own research?
Edited on Wed Apr-11-07 07:00 PM by Heaven and Earth
You made the claim, you justify it, and if you can't, regardless of the reason, withdraw your claim until you actually manage to acquire some evidence.
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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Gee, what a surprise you have nothing to back up your ridiculous accusations.
I had your posts deleted? Sorry, I'm not a mod, why don't you try a different idea. Like maybe your posts were absolutely ridiculous and without merit... hmmm... do you think that's why they were deleted? Maybe? Or it's just a giant conspiracy against Christians :scared:
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #98
105. That's odd, because the answer I keep on seeing is things like
"What the fuck? Saying 'no, thank you' is not anti-christian bogotry!"

You know, looking back through R/T, I do see one time when Christianity was directly attacked, and do you know what happened? The atheists stepped in and stood up for you all.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=75881&mesg_id=75881

Nasty atheists, those lot.

Please note the ones then are still the same ones you face now, this was not that long ago.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. "the one time Christianity was directly attacked"?
Edited on Wed Apr-11-07 08:31 PM by MethuenProgressive
Heck fire, Aussie, I'm not much of a Christian (in church 10 times in the last 10 years, and 2 of those were gay weddings) but even I see it happening here more than "one time" ever. I've been called a "whiner," "too sensitive," and was told to "get over it" - so obviously I've struck a nerve with a few other posters. I know the overwhelming majority of R/T regulars aren't represented by the few snarky mod-kissers I've encountered since joining R/T - and thanks again for the links you've provided.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. Ah, note the subtleties of what I'm saying.
Rather than something which was somewhat ambigous whether you or Christianity is under attack, when it was made clear that someone thought Christianity was shite, we stepped in.

What's more, now I think about it, there were a couple of other times with the same effect too :rofl: just goes to show you how memory works!
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-12-07 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #108
111. I'm no wordsmith, I admit.
I just say what I mean and mean what I say. Perhaps that's what bugs a few R/T regs.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-12-07 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #106
110. Gee, if I wanted the mods to stop deleting my posts, I'd stop inferring they're owned by atheists..
The mods in this forum are MORE than fair to christians. Just because you either can't read the rules or don't understand them, does not make everyone else a "snarky mod-kisser". FYI, almost ALL of us have had posts deleted, sparky.

When you call people names, falsely accuse them of being bigots, insult the mods for deleting your posts and then act like it's a HUGH!!1! conspiracy against you, you have no one to blame but yourself.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-12-07 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #110
112. "FYI, almost ALL of us have had posts deleted, sparky."
You're going for the record? Good luck to you.
But you need to stop whining about it so much.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-12-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. You've had entire threads deleted, slick, you're way ahead of me.
Edited on Thu Apr-12-07 12:43 PM by beam me up scottie
And as far as whining goes, you're the one who keeps blubbering on and on about how the mean old atheists and DU mods keep picking on poor widdle you.

The Thread this one whines about was deleted: Proving the DU bias.
Well, is was preddictable, that's for sure


I had two threads removed, one asking why it's OK to post bigotry against Christians on DU, and one asking why a few anti-Christians felt the need to adopt Imus/Coulter style speech to make their points. Of course, I was attacked, and the threads were removed.


I've already done that, and you had my threads and posts deleted.
Now you're drooling as you try to get me banned from posting altogether?

Paranoid much? :yoiks:



If it makes you feel any better:
:nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity:


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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
100. Really
Edited on Wed Apr-11-07 05:18 PM by Swede
nt
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #100
109. Yup n/t
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