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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-11-07 11:44 PM Original message |
What exactly is supposed to be "beyond" logic? |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-11-07 11:51 PM Response to Original message |
1. I agree. |
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Kiouni (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 02:39 AM Response to Original message |
2. I don's see the logic? |
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Evoman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 03:15 AM Response to Reply #2 |
4. Yeah, its a pretty nonsense reply. |
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pnwmom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 02:52 AM Response to Original message |
3. Sorry, can't tell you. |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 12:01 PM Response to Reply #3 |
6. Something "special"... |
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More Than A Feeling (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 10:48 AM Response to Original message |
5. When someone uses "beyond logic" |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 03:21 PM Response to Reply #5 |
16. Your point A is precisely why children "get" God, and thus Atheists cause such decay in America |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 12:43 PM Response to Original message |
7. I think they are talking about the limits of logic .... |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 12:50 PM Response to Reply #7 |
8. You aren't clear because clarity requires precision |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 02:23 PM Response to Reply #8 |
12. but the feeling of knowledge can be knowledge |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 02:28 PM Response to Reply #12 |
13. Ah Jeezus, not intution again |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 03:51 PM Response to Reply #13 |
17. Don't hold back tell me how you really feel |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 03:58 PM Response to Reply #17 |
18. No shit, but other people don't seem to have a problem with it |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 08:08 AM Response to Reply #18 |
28. How is feeling something I know knowing something? |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 10:22 AM Response to Reply #28 |
31. The problem is a poorly developed epistemology... |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 12:14 PM Response to Reply #31 |
34. and the value of such epistomolgy is? |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 12:29 PM Response to Reply #34 |
37. *Sigh* The point is that without any confirmation IT IS a mere feeling |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 02:58 PM Response to Reply #37 |
46. We often never receive confirmation about the most mundane knowledge |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 03:11 PM Response to Reply #46 |
48. Missing the point again. |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 11:00 PM Response to Reply #48 |
61. What problem? |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 03:52 PM Response to Reply #34 |
51. Think about the words "know" and "knowledge" and how they're used... |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 11:09 PM Response to Reply #51 |
63. I disagree |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 12:11 PM Response to Reply #63 |
77. Q: X or Y? / A: I disagree. |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 02:48 PM Response to Reply #77 |
87. Second order knowledge isn't necessary for first order knowledge. |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 03:05 PM Response to Reply #87 |
88. I know epistemology can get pretty hairy... |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 03:09 PM Response to Reply #88 |
89. The problem seems to be that either way "knowledge" isn't useful. |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 03:27 PM Response to Reply #89 |
91. I'm not sure what you mean by "necessary truths". |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 04:43 PM Response to Reply #91 |
95. Knowledge must be true. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 04:50 PM Response to Reply #95 |
98. Mathematics is axiomatic |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 05:01 PM Response to Reply #98 |
100. You're merely changing symbols. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 05:30 PM Response to Reply #100 |
106. No, really not. |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 05:35 PM Response to Reply #106 |
107. Which is again a definitional issue. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 05:55 PM Response to Reply #107 |
108. Exactly - mathematics doesn't have to have anything to do with reality |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 06:01 PM Response to Reply #108 |
109. I could define "dinosaur" to mean "Nazi." |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 06:19 PM Response to Reply #109 |
111. It's not a necessary truth of mathematics - it's a necessary truth of *a* mathematics |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 06:23 PM Response to Reply #111 |
112. And is thus a necessary truth. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 06:34 PM Response to Reply #112 |
114. *Sigh* this is not about semantic games |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 03:17 PM Response to Reply #114 |
122. Who said anything about "profound significance?" |
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Jim__ (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Apr-16-07 09:23 AM Response to Reply #98 |
139. Arithmetic is not axiomatic. |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 11:43 PM Response to Reply #139 |
155. 2 + 2 = 1... |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-18-07 12:22 AM Response to Reply #155 |
159. See post #100. |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-18-07 01:23 AM Response to Reply #159 |
161. While changing arithmetic bases or human languages is simply a trivial... |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-18-07 08:05 AM Response to Reply #161 |
163. Fair enough. (n/t) |
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Jim__ (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-18-07 07:46 AM Response to Reply #155 |
162. That's a terminological issue. |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 05:24 PM Response to Reply #95 |
103. You never can know whether or not... |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 05:30 PM Response to Reply #103 |
105. At that point, you're talking about false knowledge. |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 06:25 PM Response to Reply #105 |
113. I'd say "provisional" knowledge, not "false" knowledge. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 10:27 AM Response to Reply #28 |
33. Wow, thanks that clears it up |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 12:16 PM Response to Reply #33 |
35. You see a problem where I see none. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 12:23 PM Response to Reply #35 |
36. You don't think it's a problem that intuition can lead to mututally incompatable 'knowledge'? |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 03:08 PM Response to Reply #36 |
47. Of course it can lead to mutually incompatible knowledge |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 03:20 PM Response to Reply #47 |
50. We can't do a thing about it |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 04:02 PM Response to Reply #50 |
52. What's even worse... |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 11:19 PM Response to Reply #50 |
64. I am not particularly talking about the "beyond logic" OP |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 04:59 PM Response to Reply #64 |
99. You're trying to fix a broken DVD player... |
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Jokerman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 01:36 PM Response to Original message |
9. "Paralogical Studies" |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 01:41 PM Response to Reply #9 |
10. Ah but politics IS logical |
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cosmik debris (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 01:44 PM Response to Reply #9 |
11. I'm going back to college |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 02:51 PM Response to Original message |
14. People actually PAYING to vote on American Idol? |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 02:57 PM Response to Reply #14 |
15. They get a sense of value from participation. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 06:00 PM Response to Original message |
19. All manner of matters are beyond mere logic. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 06:42 PM Response to Reply #19 |
20. Reply (lack of imagination) |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 08:32 PM Response to Reply #20 |
23. Your comments really miss the point. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 11:24 PM Response to Reply #23 |
27. Erm no shit |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 02:42 PM Response to Reply #27 |
45. You apparently don't realize that "polynomial time" really doesn't mean "feasible" |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 03:13 PM Response to Reply #45 |
49. Okay, I'm going to capitulate on that point because it really doesn't affect the main thrust |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 11:22 PM Response to Reply #20 |
26. I'd just like to reply to one thing here. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 08:55 AM Response to Reply #26 |
29. RIght, I'm familiar with that |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 09:54 AM Response to Reply #29 |
30. Let me unpack this for you in more detail: |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 10:22 AM Response to Reply #30 |
32. Right... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 01:02 PM Response to Reply #32 |
39. Strike three: here it is (A + S) that is contradictory, not necessarily A; hence it DOES depend on S |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 01:38 PM Response to Reply #39 |
41. No |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 04:18 PM Response to Reply #41 |
53. The point is that logic is a collection of linguistic conventions that mirror ... |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 07:58 PM Response to Reply #53 |
56. Could you explain something for me? |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 09:50 PM Response to Reply #56 |
57. In simple concrete cases, I expect the statements are equivalent. |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 12:08 AM Response to Reply #57 |
71. What "not ((for all x) not P(x))" means |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 01:04 PM Response to Reply #71 |
79. OK, you want to propose a simple operational meaning. |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 01:34 PM Response to Reply #79 |
81. Not true. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 02:03 PM Response to Reply #81 |
83. Actually, what I am arguing is that there are entirely different notions .. |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 02:10 PM Response to Reply #83 |
84. OK, then I'm completely failing to see what you're saying. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 03:25 PM Response to Reply #84 |
90. Here, I think, is the real difficulty: I am adopting a rather restrictive ... |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 04:50 PM Response to Reply #90 |
97. This seems to be mere semantic wordplay. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 05:17 PM Response to Reply #97 |
102. My objection to the definition is exactly that the standard definition is mere wordplay: |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 05:28 PM Response to Reply #102 |
104. Yes, but only in extremely rare cases. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 06:44 PM Response to Reply #104 |
115. I don't know why you say "rare." There are plenty of existence arguments |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 01:18 PM Response to Reply #115 |
120. I thought you were talking about "real" things? |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 04:18 PM Response to Reply #120 |
124. I want a logic which gives sensible and useful results and which is in some sense "realistic." |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 04:28 PM Response to Reply #124 |
125. Metaphysics for the win. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 07:01 PM Response to Reply #125 |
128. Giving old things new names for the win? |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 07:53 PM Response to Reply #128 |
129. You don't need to show an example if you can show that something MUST exist |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 10:57 PM Response to Reply #129 |
130. We'll just have to disagree about this. It seems clear enough to me |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 11:15 PM Response to Reply #130 |
131. The same problem exists in any sort of proof. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 11:21 PM Response to Reply #131 |
133. "Proof" means different things to different people. |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 11:24 PM Response to Reply #133 |
134. True enough. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 11:48 PM Response to Reply #134 |
135. If such objections interest you, look up "intuitionistic logic" or "constructivist logic" |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Apr-16-07 12:02 AM Response to Reply #135 |
136. From the little I've just read, they seem profoundly silly. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Apr-16-07 12:14 AM Response to Reply #136 |
137. Then I will probably be unlikely to persuade you otherwise |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Apr-16-07 12:21 AM Response to Reply #137 |
138. Well, you could explain what it would mean for something to be true and false. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Apr-16-07 11:52 AM Response to Reply #138 |
140. Two different ideas are sometimes called "excluded middle." You fail to distinguish |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Apr-16-07 10:29 PM Response to Reply #140 |
142. Your true statement isn't meaningless garbage. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 02:16 PM Response to Reply #142 |
144. If you are unwilling to insist that logic have a concrete operational meaning then |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 05:40 PM Response to Reply #144 |
147. I was discussing the only way an implication can be falsified. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 09:11 PM Response to Reply #147 |
149. I'm not sure to what purpose you wish to discuss "the only way for (stmt) could be false" |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 10:59 PM Response to Reply #149 |
152. (p -> q) where P is true and Q is false is necessarily false. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 11:55 PM Response to Reply #152 |
156. The conventional logic collapses a number of distinct ideas |
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kiahzero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-18-07 12:14 AM Response to Reply #156 |
157. Is there any sort of example of classical logic breaking? |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-18-07 11:18 AM Response to Reply #157 |
165. I don't know how to say much more on such matters than I've already said. |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 10:30 PM Response to Reply #53 |
59. Has anyone ever mediated over a crystal... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 11:06 PM Response to Reply #59 |
62. Your silly response has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I said: |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 11:23 PM Response to Reply #62 |
65. My response had little to do with what you said... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 11:38 PM Response to Reply #65 |
68. So if Ramanujan had attempted to meditate over a crystal |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 11:55 PM Response to Reply #68 |
70. I'd certainly rather that Ramanujan had given himself... |
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Imperialism Inc. (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 01:50 PM Response to Reply #39 |
42. But obviously we need to decide if axiom A is reasonable. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 01:55 PM Response to Reply #42 |
43. I think he's trying to say that because you can prove anything with logic then that determination |
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Imperialism Inc. (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 02:06 PM Response to Reply #43 |
44. Yeah. That's what I thought he was saying too. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 06:40 PM Response to Reply #42 |
54. Well, those are very nice sounding words but ... |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 01:01 AM Response to Reply #54 |
74. (response moved to connect to correct parent) n/t |
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Imperialism Inc. (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 10:36 AM Response to Reply #54 |
76. It is put up or shut up time s4p. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 01:39 PM Response to Reply #76 |
82. We are in a subthread discussing the question of how to proceed |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 10:12 PM Response to Reply #19 |
25. You could just as easily say... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 12:58 PM Response to Reply #25 |
38. From a pragmatic and materialistic perspective, we can say that a technique applies to ... |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 01:22 PM Response to Reply #38 |
40. Metalogic |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 07:48 PM Response to Reply #38 |
55. The old straw men of absolute knowledge and absolute certainty |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 10:07 PM Response to Reply #55 |
58. If you want to ask whether there is anything "beyond logic," |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 10:52 PM Response to Reply #58 |
60. Why do you keep beating a dead horse that I deliberately shot down it my opening post? |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 11:23 PM Response to Reply #60 |
66. How do YOU know those things are within their own heads??? |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 12:19 AM Response to Reply #66 |
73. If you're happy with the meager world of... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 11:28 PM Response to Reply #60 |
67. If you accept that logic has limits, then the question |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-13-07 11:39 PM Response to Reply #67 |
69. The difference is... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 12:09 AM Response to Reply #69 |
72. That won't do. I'll revert to an example I gave before: consider the assertion |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 01:08 AM Response to Reply #72 |
75. I'm not sure why you find the premise of this thread so hard to grasp. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 01:00 PM Response to Reply #75 |
78. At this point, your rhetorical technique is clear, and it suggests your purposes. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 01:11 PM Response to Reply #78 |
80. You miss the point: |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 02:41 PM Response to Reply #80 |
86. As far as I can tell, it is your view that logic and computation |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 03:27 PM Response to Reply #86 |
92. Not quite |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 04:38 PM Response to Reply #92 |
94. That's dishonest: I never asked for "a complete moral framework covering all possibilities" |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 04:48 PM Response to Reply #94 |
96. Which, again, I'm going to have to ask you what that is. |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 02:18 PM Response to Reply #78 |
85. It's not simply that I am told "there are matters beyond the reach of logic"... |
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More Than A Feeling (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 03:33 PM Response to Reply #85 |
93. .... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 05:09 PM Response to Reply #85 |
101. I can't see that the extended analogy clarifies much. Nowhere in the |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 06:05 PM Response to Reply #101 |
110. There was no attempt to "attribut(e to you) beliefs (you) do not have"... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 07:19 PM Response to Reply #110 |
116. Hmmm. You claim to believe in using logic as a tool but apparently |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-14-07 11:17 PM Response to Reply #116 |
117. If only you were using logic "against" me... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 12:22 AM Response to Reply #117 |
118. Okie dokie: |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 09:11 AM Response to Reply #118 |
119. UGH. |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 03:34 PM Response to Reply #118 |
123. Fascinating |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 05:45 PM Response to Reply #123 |
126. I suspect your difficulty stems largely from your inability to tolerate disagreement. |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 06:59 PM Response to Reply #126 |
127. What "grandiose claims" have I made? |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 11:17 PM Response to Reply #127 |
132. So we cannot even agree regarding the nature of our disagreement. |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Apr-16-07 08:22 PM Response to Reply #132 |
141. Perhaps we can agree... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 02:55 PM Response to Reply #141 |
145. If your intent is intellectually honest, you should be able to clarify certain points. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 03:08 PM Response to Reply #145 |
146. UGH |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 11:09 PM Response to Reply #146 |
153. But if he stops fretting and fussing... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-18-07 12:17 AM Response to Reply #153 |
158. Okay, so what I am saying there is simply this: |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-18-07 01:08 AM Response to Reply #145 |
160. How can I be clear about the form answers take which don't make sense to me? |
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rug (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 07:21 PM Response to Original message |
21. Bush's foreign policy. |
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WhollyHeretic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 07:45 PM Response to Original message |
22. . |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-12-07 10:03 PM Response to Original message |
24. It's how the Religionistas and New Agers protect thier nonsense from being falsifiable. |
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varkam (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-15-07 01:49 PM Response to Original message |
121. A refrain here and elsewhere in theological discussions is |
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MistressOverdone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 08:22 AM Response to Original message |
143. Logic is a gift |
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Zhade (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 08:42 PM Response to Reply #143 |
148. "Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't." Indeed. But here's the problem: |
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More Than A Feeling (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 09:14 PM Response to Reply #148 |
150. The epitaph of the supernatural: "Wishful thinking doesn't make it true." |
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Zhade (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 10:12 PM Response to Reply #150 |
151. Is it wrong to say I love you more each day? |
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MistressOverdone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-18-07 08:20 AM Response to Reply #148 |
164. I couldn't agree more, Zhade |
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Silent3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-17-07 11:31 PM Response to Reply #143 |
154. I'm a Trek fan, but the ST idea of what it means to be "logical"... |
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WritingIsMyReligion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-19-07 09:08 PM Response to Original message |
166. "Beyond logic" is a loaded phrase used to insulate religion from criticism. |
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