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Does One Have To Believe Jesus Was Divine To Be A Christian?

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:26 PM
Original message
Does One Have To Believe Jesus Was Divine To Be A Christian?
It seems, the deeper I wade into this forum, the more definitions for "god" and "Christian" I come across. That's actually really cool - I love the wide range of beliefs. It means people can think for themselves.

There does seem to be a dividing line when it comes to Christianity, though, at least among people I've talked to offline. Many Christians (not just conservatives, either) have argued to me that those who follow the purported teachings of Jesus but do not believe he was divine are not real Christians.

Is this a disconnect in Christianity? Are there actually large numbers of Christians who don't buy into the whole "virgin birth, divine, god-made-flesh" angle?

I know a couple of DUers have said they don't, and people I know would call them "fake Christians" (or worse). I myself find those who don't believe the supernatural claims of the bible to be more appealing, logical, and rational. I love the words Jesus is said to have uttered. Great stuff. The supernatural parts seem to clutter those messages of peace and love. But I would never say those who believe the otherworldly stuff are "fake", if they truly follow the words attributed to Jesus.

Why is literal interpretation of supernaturally-themed passages in the bible often held as a requirement for being Christian? Is it because the Council of Nicea was the group that decided Jesus was divine, and that's that?

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dryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. The believe....
in the Divine Relevation--the doctrine that Christ was of two natures, human and divine is one of the core beliefs of Christianity. This was decided a long, long time ago which resulted in the Nicean Creed. Suggest you read some books on Church history.
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Dufaeth Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
42. You don't have to accept the Creed
You could also take the Arian route.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. But many do think you MUST accept it.
I honestly don't understand why his divinity trumps his purported teachings.

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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. Conservative Christians are Fond of Claiming the Founding Fathers
as Christians. And many of them didn't believe in Jesus's divinity.

William Ellery Channing wrote a long treatise on the gospels in which he argued that Jesus didn't teach that he was divine.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Got a link to that treatise? I'd be interested in reading it!
NT!

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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Actually, I Couldn't Find it on the Web
Since Channing was the founder of Unitarianism, I'm sure it's not too difficult to find.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. If you don't believe he's divine,
then why call yourself a Christian?
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. perhaps striving to live as Jesus lived and striving to follow his
teachings are enough to be called (or call yourself if you choose) a Christian

seems like it to me anyway :shrug:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. True enough...
just curious.
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Jews for Jesus
I could never figure out how those people could say Jesus was God/divine and still be Jewish (other than ethnically). Um, the Messiah hasn't come yet far as the Jewish religion is concerned.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. If THOSE people are Jewish, I'm Shinto.
The moment they become Christians they cease to be Jews, almost by definition. The title is just a marketing gimmick.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Do Jews for Jesus claim to be Christians? n/t
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
50. Yes.
They "accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior" while "remaining culturally Jewish". That's their spiel.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Don't they just consider him to be a great prophet?
I really have no idea, but that's the impression I got.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. Because they love his example and want to follow it?
Maybe being "Christ-like" doesn't rely on if you see him as divine or not?

For the record, I'm no longer a Christian, but if I claimed to be, would you say I wasn't because I don't think Jesus (if he even existed) was divine?

What's more important - his alleged divinity, or his purported teachings?

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. I suppose that's a good enough reason.
I'm an agnostic, but I still wear my cross (was raised Catholic).

I would not take it upon myself to determine another person's religious standing. I leave that up to them to define. IMO a person's relationship with god (or whatever you want to call it) is a very personal thing, so if they say they're Christian, than to me, they are.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
38. I think that's the way to go.
Hopefully, believers would extend that same courtesy to atheists, instead of trying to define what that term means for them.

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MemphisTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
52. That was my question
just call yourself spiritual if you don't believe in the divinity of Jesus. I think the Jews don't believe in the divinity of Jesus. That may be an option for those that don't believe in Jesus.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. Technically, yes...
...but the issue of "divinity" is a lot more fluid than evangelicals would have you believe. You mention the Virgin Birth. If the child was Jesus, would he have been any less holy if he was indeed the progeny of a Roman soldier named Pantera? It all ties into the whole "original sin" mess that Augustine unleashed on Christendom.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Is the "progeny of a Roman soldier" an actual theory?
If so, it's new to me!

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xray s Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. There are two aspects to Christianity
One deals with this world. And the other deals with the spirit world.

You can adhere to a Christian code of conduct, if you like, but to be Christian I believe you have to answer the question of what being a Christian means spiritually. That answer leads to Christ's divinity.

Of course, some people do not believe there is spiritual reality, a reality seperate from what our senses can percieve, and find the question of divinity moot.

Its all based on what you think happens next. Something, or nothing.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. Well, if
you don't believe in the "divine", you can't really call what you believe a "religion". Marxism, for example, is pretty much faith-based, yet very few people would call it a religion.

Christianity is a religion. It's followers believe in Christ as one of the Three Persons of the Godhead. If you don't believe that, what makes Christ any more special than any other philosopher of beliefs similar to the ones you think Christ had??

So why call yourself a Christian??

However, call yourself whatever you want to. I don't care, and if God does, He'll let you know, sooner or later.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. I'm not a Christian anymore.
Part of the reason is I just never could believe the supernatural elements, no matter how much I wanted to at the time, and this was apparently unacceptable.

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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. "Many Christians?"
Edited on Fri Mar-04-05 04:40 PM by onehandle
Sounds like you've been talking to a bunch of Deists. Who would probably not tend to be conservatives. And would not be considered "Christians" by most Christians.

I believe that the "Deist" population is probably a small minority.

Many of our country's founders were Deists. Not Conservative Christians, as the Right would lead us to believe.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. Jesus' divinity was in doubt before the Council of Nicea
That is supposedly where the issue was decided once and for all. I for one believe it to have been a political decision. There didn't seem to be a problem with any of it until Constantine came along and decided to make it a state religion.

Flame if you must, but I consider the debate arbitrary. Whether Jesus was God or the Ultimate Rabbi, his teachings are immortal and withstand all tests. The nitpicking that goes on among doctrinal "scholars" can go on forever. I will keep believing in the rightness of Christ's words and deeds and in his message of salvation. Petty bickering and man-made doctrine is secondary at most. Faith doesn't depend on semantics.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. And he was a Liberal.
Why can't Jesus back the President like all good Americans do?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. I agree that his purported teachings are far more important.
However, my lack of belief in the supernatural elements meant I was not welcome where I was.

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Enquiringkitty Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Anytime a group of people in a position of some power in a community get
together and decide or take a position on an issue, there has to be flaws and ulterior motives because that is the nature of the rational human mind. Our human limitations must be questioned. It is said that "no man can know the mind of God". They made a decision that answered a question at the time. I don't trust their ideas and more than I do Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Norman V. Peale, or any other human who feels that "KNOW" what God wants. How arrogant!
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Hoping4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. Believing in the value of his teaching trumps any profession of
faith in him being divine. The world might be better place if all holy teachings were by Anonymous. Builders of medieval cathedrals are anonymous yet do we value the buildings less than if we knew who built them?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. I like this post a lot. Thanks for posting it.
NT!

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Dervill Crow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
54. Amen!
Reading what Jesus had to say about the Pharisees, he wasn't too impressed with organized religion. I would really like to know what he meant when he said (if he DID say) the only way to the father was through him. Wouldn't it be something if he meant by turning your back on all established religion and just following his example?
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. You and Thomas Jefferson have something in common
Check out the Jefferson bible. He stripped out everything supernatural and only included Jesus' teachings!
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Well, good company to keep, eh?
NT!

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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. This doesn't directly answer your question, but--
-- in every religion, not just Christianity, it seems there is more than one answer to your question. Most religions have the same strata of believers --

1. Orthodox
2. Traditional
3. Scholars
3. Mystics

From what I've seen, the Orthodox in every religion tend to be the "fundamentalists." Everything about their religion is deeply true at face value.

The Traditionalists are those who practice their religion because that's what they "should" do, no questions asked. They may or may not believe a word of it, but "that's not the point."

Scholars tend to the intellectual analysis of their religion, with an emphasis on reasoning out the tenets as metaphors, they sometimes morph into Mystics after an epiphany.

The Mystics revere the Messenger of their religion, but usually practice based on the Messenger's message, on union with God, and on realization of the unity in the message of each Messenger, such as Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, et al.

So, back to your question. I believe the answer you'll get from each Christian (or any other follower of any religion) will be based less on "what Christians think" and more on their level of spiritual understanding. :)
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
23. From: Notes on the Founding Fathers and the Separation of Church and State
by R.P. Nettelhorst

Perhaps, to start, it might be beneficial to remind ourselves of what a Christian might be: it is a person who has acknowledged his or her sinfulness, responded in faith to the person of Jesus Christ as the only one who can redeem him, and by so doing been given the Holy Spirit.
The early church summarized the Christian message in six points:

1. Jesus came from God.
2. You killed him.
3. He rose again on the third day.
4. He sent the Holy Spirit
5. Repent and be baptized.
6. He's coming back.

An individual who would not acknowledge this much of the Christian message could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be called a Christian. The founding fathers of this country did not acknowledge this message. In fact, they denied it.

link
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Enquiringkitty Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
27. Unless a person has a direct line to God's office like Bush seems to think
he does, one must keep an open mind and a questioning attitude in the search for the truth. The belief in God and the belief that Jesus spoke the truth doesn't make a person a Christian and questioning the essence of God and the divinity of Jesus doesn't make you unacceptable as a Christian. Jesus, himself, told us to "beware of false prophets" and that he didn't come to do away with the law but to fulfill it; give it a way to survive and be relevant in that time of turmoil and persecution. Questioning, searching, investigating, and ongoing debate keeps false prophets from justifying cruelty and adulteration of God's creation but twisting the interpretation of God's word. the burden of humanity is to control our power of rational and not use it to believe what we want to be true instead to find and follow what is the truth even if that truth isn't how we wish it to be or how our society would like it to be. The serious search is the divine within us at work.
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moez Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
28. If He wasn't divine -
Then He was either a liar or a nut. That is, He believed and said that He was the son of God...

So, you either believe Him or you don't - I don't much care.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. maybe neither divine, nor liar, not nut
all we have to go on are things written about him by others after the fact, which may contain, shall we say embellishments of the truth
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. I read that book too...
...problem is that, at least in the Canon as it exists today, Jesus never applied the title "son of God" to himself. So he neither said that nor is there any indication in the gospels that he believed that. Many Biblical apologists attempt to place Jesus in that box though, to force that false dichotomy (either divine or liar/crazy).

Did Jesus evacuate waste? Did he sweat? After 40 days in the desert, was he rank with BO? Did he have testicles, and if so, did they produce sperm?

I don't ask these things to be blasphemous, but to illustrate that the Nicean church may have, in an effort to carry forth the teachings of Paul (not necessarily Jesus), made certain decisions that had little or nothing to do with the person of Jesus.
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moez Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. You may want to investigate a little further..
This excerpt from http://www.backtogod.net/Sermons/sermon_detail.cfm?ID=35445 as well as others on that site point out where Jesus either claimed Godly powers or claimed to be one with God.

Jesus talks with his followers, and he doesn't just teach them the way to God, or the truth about God, or how to have life from God. He says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." One of his friends says in bewilderment, "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us." Jesus answers, "Don't you know me, even after I have been with you for such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father?' Don't you know that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?" (John 14:6-10)

Jesus is clearly a man who thinks he's God. That means you can't just think that he's a great prophet or a pretty good teacher with some worthwhile ideas. You either have to accept Jesus as Savior and Lord, or else you have to reject him as absolutely wicked or wacky. It's all or nothing.

There is no half-way house and there is no parallel in other religions. If you had gone to Buddha and asked him 'Are you the son of Bramah?' he would have said, 'My son, you are still in the vale of illusion.' If you had gone to Socrates and asked, 'Are you Zeus?' he would have laughed at you. If you had gone to Mohammed and asked, "Are you Allah?' he would first have rent his clothes and then cut your head off. If you had asked Confucius, 'Are you Heaven?', I think he would have probably replied, 'Remarks which are not in accordance with nature are in bad taste.' The idea of a great moral teacher saying what Christ said is out of the question . In my opinion, the only person who can say that sort of thing is either God or a complete lunatic... If you think you are a poached egg, when you are looking for a piece of toast to suit you, you may be sane, but if you think you are God, there is no chance for you. We may note in passing that Jesus was never regarded as a mere moral teacher. He did not produce that effect on any of the people who actually met Him. He produced mainly three effects--Hatred--Terror--Adoration. There was no trace of people expressing mild approval.

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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Sorry, but I've investigated plenty...
...or I wouldn't have the views that I do today. You believe that Jesus is God, that's faith. Many of the rabbis of Jesus time spoke in parables and riddles. It's not my desire to convince you otherwise. I'll just say that I find most persons bend their Scriptures to their preconceived notions.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. Couldn't he be saying "I am LIKE God, this is the way to go"?
In other words, his purported teachings about love and charity and all that good stuff are examples of god-like behavior to be followed?

You either have to accept Jesus as Savior and Lord, or else you have to reject him as absolutely wicked or wacky. It's all or nothing.

Is it really? My informal possible explanation is neither of these. I submit that it's hardly the false dichotomy you've suggested...which essentially challenges the self-identification of those Christian DUers who don't believe in the divinity of Jesus.

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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #28
41. Not really
He did say that we are all god's children, peacemakers are the sons of god, and that he was the son of god aka peacemaker and human. It's the nuts that take Bible paragraphs out of context to promote the idea of Jesus' divinity.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #28
49. Well, on that count...
we're all children of God.

Personally, the more time I think on it, the less sure I am that Jesus' divinity matters that much. His lesson, and God's lesson in sending him, seem far more important.
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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
33. Speaking personally,
Edited on Fri Mar-04-05 05:50 PM by Stunster
I don't really care whether people reserve the term 'Christian' for those who believe in the true divinity of Jesus or not. It's simply a linguistic choice. What I do care about is whether Jesus was truly divine or not.

Here's an email I sent recently to an inquiring skeptic:

Another thing is the claim that Jesus was resurrected.

In general, people didn't claim that the other messiahs were resurrected. It's important to understand something about this claim. It's not just that Jesus was alive in some spirit world, or that his soul was immortal. Several hundred years before Jesus, Plato had taught that everybody's soul was immortal, and a belief in some form of afterlife long predates Jesus! In the case of other religious figures, the claim was that they had moved into the afterlife.

If the early Christians had simply proclaimed that the soul of Jesus was immortal, or that he survived in some form of afterlife, people would have said, yes, so what? What possessed them to make the far more extraordinary claim---extraordinary even in the context of the ancient Near East---that Jesus had risen from the dead?

What makes the resurrection of Jesus claim so extraordinary is that it was clearly meant to include the claim that the *crucified body* of Jesus, not just his soul or spirit, was resurrected. From a historical point of view, it is practically certain that the tomb of Jesus was indeed found to be empty, because if the body had still been there, Christianity would not have got off the ground, if you'll pardon the pun. The authorities would simply have produced the corpse.

The Anglican Bishop of Durham, N. T. Wright, makes this point very effectively in his massive scholarly study, THE RESURRECTION OF THE SON OF GOD, which I've cited before. The point is this: ancient people knew that dead people stayed dead just as much as we know it, meaning they knew that even if there is an afterlife, the corpses of the dead are not resurrected. Hence, for the first Christians to have proclaimed this to be different in the case of Jesus is utterly astonishing.

Why did they do it? They were inviting ridicule just as much as anyone today would invite ridicule if they said their friend was raised bodily from the dead. Yet they went about proclaiming this with astonishing energy and remarkable success.

Wright concludes (I think with impeccable reasoning after an incredibly well researched and massive historical study) that by far the best way to account for this is that a) the tomb was empty, and b) the first Christians had visual experiences of Jesus being alive in a resurrected, glorious body. Without both a and b, nothing would have caused them to preach such an apparent absurdity.

Of course, it's a further question as to what caused them to have those visual experiences, (and what caused the tomb to be empty). Were they caused by Jesus actually being alive in a resurrected, glorious body and appearing to them, or were they caused by something other than that? The first Christians themselves seem to have been pretty certain that it was the former. But the truth of the matter can't be decided by historians. What a historian can do, looking at the historical evidence we have, is conclude something about what the first Christians genuinely believed to be the case.

And the evidence, looked at with immense scholarship and thoroughness by Wright (and many others of course) is that what they believed was that Jesus had risen bodily from the dead, and was now living in a glorified body. This is actually a rather unique claim, even in the ancient world.

The next astonishing thing that the first Christians claimed is that this resurrected Jesus was not only the true Messiah of Judaism, but the incarnate Son of God, come into the world for the salvation of all. For Jews to claim this is indeed utterly astonishing.

First, the concept of 'Son of God' in any literally divine sense would have been unknown to them. Second, the concept that this literally divine Son of God would become incarnate was simply unthinkable to Jews (in much the same way and for much the same reasons as it still is for Muslims, and of course modern Jews). Third, most Jews were not interested in saving Gentiles.

But all these claims are multiply attested to in the New Testament, which is largely authored by Jews!

So now the question becomes, when was the NT written? Well, the scholarly consensus is that most or all of it was written between between 50AD and 110AD, give or take a few years. In the 19th century, some scholars made the dating much later, but this is now untenable, because we have actual fragments of the NT which place its composition in the latter half of the 1st century.

Note that this is several centuries before Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire after the conversion of Constantine in the 4th century. The earliest of the NT writing is either Galatians or 1 Thessalonians (both circa 50-52AD). This means that there were Christian communities as far away as Turkey and Greece within 20 years of the crucifixion of Jesus (which is dated either 30AD or 33AD).

I won't go into the arguments for the dating here, but there are many solid reasons for thinking that the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) were all substantially completed prior to 70AD. We have a letter from Clement of Rome dated in 95AD in which he quotes from 10 of the 27 books of the NT.

Now it would be tedious to point out all the many bits of the NT that affirm the divinity of Christ. But a good place to start would be the Pauline letters, since he is acknowledged to have died in the mid-60sAD and hence all his letters must have been written before then. Well, in Galatians 4:4, Paul writes that "when the appointed time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born a subject of the Law, to redeem the subjects of the Law and to enable us ot adopted as sons. The proof that you are sons is that God has sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts...". So here we have a text written about 51-52AD, indeed it's probably the very earliest or second earliest Christian text we have, authored long before Christianity became the dominant religion of the Roman Empire, in which a Jew (Paul), who had initially persecuted the first Christians (see Galatians 1: 13-24), writes of Jesus as being the Son of God. As I say, that's just for starters. A summary on NT dating can be found here: http://www.carm.org/questions/written_after.htm

Recently, there has been a bunch of stuff written about Gnostic Christianity, such as BEYOND BELIEF by Elaine Pagels (professor at Princeton), and which focus a great deal on the Gnostic gospels and other literature found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc. Now, I'll leave to one side all the very good evidence is that this literature was written much, much later than the NT. But ok, what does Pagels say?

Controversially dating the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas earlier than the canonical Gospel of John, she claims that John was written to disprove Thomas, and that early Christianity had both the orthodox view (represented by John), but also the unorthodox Gnostic view written by Thomas, and that the unorthodox view was kind of unfairly excluded from the Canon of Scripture by the likes of Irenaeus of Lyon in the late 2nd century (still long before Christianity became the religion of the empire, mind you). I can't do much better than quote one reviewer of Pagels' book to show why this is simply an untenable view:

"The idea that John was written to disprove Thomas is untenable for at least three reasons. First, (as Pagels herself admits here), John shows many marks of familiarity with the time, events, and persons of First Century Palestine, while Thomas (as I think she admits of the Gnostics in general, in the Gnostic Gospels) shows none. It was therefore entirely reasonable for early Christians to accept the obviously historical John and reject the even more obviousy unhistorical Thomas: where is the mystery?

"Secondly, many Biblical scholars believe, for what seem excellent reasons, that Thomas was written in the Second Century. Oxford scholar Tom Wright suggests that Thomas is not only unhistorical, it is even anti-historical: "Thomas did for the parables in the second century what Julicher, Dodd and Jeremias did in the twentieth, and perhaps for similar reasons, namely, the attempt to get away from their historical and very Jewish specificity." Pagels never mentions discouraging words like this from competing scholars, still less refutes any of the evidence on which they are based. We are supposed to accept her early dating for Thomas on blind faith, it seems. I wish she had been inspired by the Thomas who was full of doubts, rather than the Thomas who is simply doubtful.

"Thirdly, John resembles the Synoptic Gospels much, while Thomas resembles them little. I recently went over what the Jesus Seminar calls the "Five Gospels" with a fine-toothed comb, and narrowed it down to four again. First, I listed 45 characteristics of the Synoptic Gospels, 43 of which John strongly shares. I then compared Thomas and other ancient literature, and found that of six documents I compared with the canonical Gospels, Thomas resembled them the LEAST. (And two of the other documents were from China!) I found Thomas flagrantly a-historical, formulaic, lacking in developed, convincing characters, unconnected to space or time, un-Jewish, and platitudinous on occasion. Pagels claims that John, unlike the Synoptics, has no moral teaching. Actually John contains rich moral teaching of the highest caliber: it is Thomas (surprisingly, for a sayings "Gospel") that has none!

"In short, I find NO reason to take the "Gospel of Thomas" seriously as a source for the life of Jesus, or to call it a Gospel. John, on the other hand, is intimately related to the Synoptic Gospels in dozens of vital ways, and shows many signs of being a trustworthy account of something that happened. The early Christians chose these Gospels because they knew their work -- better than some modern scholars, it seems to me, who are making absolute fools of themselves by pushing such wares, when they ought to know better."

Anglican Bishop of Durham, N. T. "Tom" Wright, whom I regard as probably the best scholar of Jesus and early Christianity, has a webpage devoted to his work:

http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Well
"In general, people didn't claim that the other messiahs were resurrected."


Except for Attis, Mithras, Osiris, Baal, Marduk, et. al.


Resurrection myths did not begin with Jesus.
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Zoskie Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Messiah is a Jewish term
I don't think Stunster is suggesting here that there were no other resurrection myths in the ancient world; he's saying that there was not, within the Jewish community, a belief that messiahs are resurrected. This has nothing to do with the wider world; it has to do with the religious beliefs of the Jewish people at the time of Jesus. The followers of Jesus were Jews, after all, and had no intention, early on, of breaking with Judaism; as such, they saw Jesus as the culmination and fulfillment of Jewish expectations for a messiah. Judaism had long had a belief that there would come a messiah, someone who would restore the sovereignty and fortunes of Israel, and restore the people to right relations with their God. Generally, this messiah would be a human being chosen by God for this special task; there was no expectation that this person would be a god, and, as Stunster states, little expectation that he (she?) would be resurrected from the dead.

It's not surprising that the time of Jesus, a time of Roman occupation, was a time of heightened anticipation for the messiah; by this time, in general, it was believed that the messiah would be a great political/military leader, or a great religious leader. It was no part of the messianic expectations that this leader would die a criminal's death on a cross and rise from the dead. Hence, that the early followers of Jesus saw him both as the messiah AND as having been resurrected suggests that something had occurred which made them change their thinking about the messiah; they would not have had expectations that Jesus would rise from the dead simply because he was the messiah. Further, that they would begin to regard Jesus as God is completely outside Jewish thought, and indeed is what eventually led to the early Christian split with Judaism.

I think Stunster is trying to suggest here (and I would concur) that the followers of Jesus were not simply equating Jesus with Jewish expectations of the messiah; in fact, they broke radically with that tradition. This suggests--to some of us, anyway--that they experienced something which affected them so drastically that it changed their expectations of what the messiah would be and do.

As far as other resurrection myths are concerned, certainly there were such myths in the ancient world. However, the extent to which they influenced early Christianity is debatable; our best evidence for the Mithras myth dates it to around the year 200--100 years after the Christian scriptures were written, and hence it's difficult to see how it could be a source for them. Other myths, such as Osiris and Attis, are geared to the agricultural year and depict the gods as dying and rising every year; this is very different from the Christian story of Jesus' once and for all resurrection.
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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Attis, Mithras, Osiris, Baal, Marduk
Two points:

1) None of these was a purported Messiah within Judaism. There were purported Messiah claimants within Judaism other than Jesus. And as I said, no resurrection claims were made on behalf of these other Messiah-claimants. Messiahship is a specifically Jewish concept.

2) The figures you cite belong to totally different literary genres than the Christian Gospels. The latter are clearly attempts to relate real events involving real people, and their meaning is clearly that a particular human being, Jesus of Nazareth, was killed by crucifixion under the known Roman governor of the time in a specific place on the outskirts of Jerusalem, following a public career in various known geographical locations; and that his crucified body was no longer in the tomb, and that Jesus himself was gloriously risen and alive, and had given a mission to actual human individuals, of which mission the writing of the Gospels themselves is a unique expression.
By contrast, the literature concerning Attis, Mithras, Osiris, Baal, and Marduk is of a totally different and clearly mythological character, as any literature scholar reading all the relevant texts for the first time would notice immediately. And the vast majority of historians would concur that Jesus was a real historical individual, and that the others are not, and were probably never even intended to be thought of as such.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Shhhhh! Those are pesky facts!
I still don't get why Jesus' alleged divinity is so important. Why aren't his purported teachings enough to make him revered by his followers?

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DerekG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Because it isn't enough for the Christian that Jesus was a "nice guy"
One of the most profound elements to the Christian mythos is how it addresses God's response to human suffering: that is, He was so pained by our sorrow, by our sin, that He incarnated into a human being and, in enduring all of the anguish this world has to offer, snatched victory from Death. I believe it was C.S. Lewis who used the man and the ant analogy to illustrate how poignant this notion is: Would you yourself become an ant out of sheer love?

It is because of Christ's death and resurrection that, to use a phrase by Thomas Merton, "we are no longer marked like Cain, but signed with the Blood of the Paschal Lamb."
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. I definitely see the point...
Edited on Mon Mar-07-05 02:09 PM by YankeyMCC
Even as an atheist I see what a powerful theme this is - a god choosing to suffer as a mortal being. While I would hold deep respect for someone who taught what Jesus is supposed to have taught (according to my understanding at least) I can understand that there needs to be more than that to base a religious worship on.

I think this is probably the deepest strongest example of "noble rejection of power" kind of stories that I like so much. Like the the historical examples of Cininatus and Washington. And for fictional examples, the recurring use of the theme in LoTR for example when Gandalf and Galadriel refuse the ring.
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LdyGuique Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
34. I think that one must believe in Jesus' divinity to be a Christian
And, I know that I'm not one. Neither do I accept the Bible as devinely inspired, either. Personally, I believe that the bible has caused more harm than good over the centuries as its message is one of unthinking fear and grovelling to a tyrannical and evil God who kills on whim in the Old Testament, and while the New Testament is far gentler, I have "issues" with a God who cannot or willnot deal with Satan; therefore, either Satan is nonexistant, or God is . . . or . . .

I believe that there are some genuinely nasty and evil human beings who've walked the earth; however, I believe that most will try to be well-intentioned most of the time and have an inner gyroscope that keeps them on a reasonable path of knowing right from wrong on a variety of issues. Tolerance is difficult to teach and many don't seem to get the message unless they are forced to walk in the shoes. Recognizing the humanity of each individual is a tough task as we are biological creatures with instinctive reactions towards difference. But, this is why we have a brain sufficient to learn and adapt over a lifetime, too.

I truly believe that if there is a Creator, it's far different and more complex than anything created by humans in their image(s).

Christians read what they want into the Bible and preach it accordingly. For example: The 1 Corinthians 11:14-15 passage is found in the context of a paragraph that focuses on the distinctions between men and women and how that was to be observed in Christ’s church. In contrast to the natural head covering God gave to women in their long hair, Paul makes the statement that while long hair is a woman’s “glory” it is a man’s “shame.” And he states that even nature teaches us that it is a shame for a man to have long hair.

Has anyone seen a depiction of Christ with short hair?

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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-04-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
36. No, In fact, this is the position taken by Bishop John Spong
And this is roughtly where I'm at, doctrinally speaking. And yes, I consider myself a Christian.

Now, of course the more fundamentalists will disagree and most people in the mainline denoms will too. But they don't get to decide what I call myself. That's between me and God.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
51. It seems necessary to believe there was something divine about Jesus
because 'Christ' means 'anointed'. So anyone calling themselves 'Christian' seems to be claiming there was some divine intervention in his life - either he himself was divine, or God specially directed his life for divine purposes.

Perhaps anyone who just follows his teaching should call themselves a 'follower of Jesus'.
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