So if Jesus was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane...

And the apostles were asleep,

How do we know what Jesus said?

It doesn't have to make sense. Afterall the basic premise is that someone rose from the dead. Don't be such a stickler.

explain it all.

The official explanation goes something like this: The Gospels, which tell us what Jesus said, were written by men infused with the Holy Spirit. Thus, they are the word of God transcribed by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. So even though they may have been asleep (actually, the real authors of the Gospels probably weren't the apostles themselves but merely used their names, sort of ghost-writing for the Holy Ghost), it didn't matter.

You either believe or you don't, and if you do, it all makes sense. When you enter the realm of faith, you leave reason behind.

Then how do you account for the various factual discrpencies between the four Gospels? That is usually accounted for by saying the writers were fallible men viewing events from their unique perspective. How do you reconcile that with the idea they were given infallible, omniscient insight from the Holy Spirit?

that the answer to your question varies depending on the authority you would consult. There may be a papal encyclical or dogma that just decrees all inconsistencies to be inconsequential and anyone who questions them to be heretics. It wouldn't surprise me that intimidation would be used to end legitimate inquiry.

As for myself, I don't account for the factual discrepancies and don't believe the authors of the Gospels were necessarily inspired by God. It could well have been political motivation, a chance to plant the seeds that would lead to a movement to usurp the Roman power structure, dressed up and aged nicely and called the kingdom of God on Earth.

It was a big disappointment to her because she wanted me to be a preacher and even had a Female Preacher all picked out for me to marry. I did feel bad that it hurt her, but I just couldn't believe the way she did and still don't. This happened about 55 years ago.

If you do a verse by verse cross reference of the four Gospels I believe you will find that the big difference is that John tells it as though it is a fact that Jesus is the son of God the other three play it down much more.

If Jesus was god, did he pray to himself?

he is the son of God


somehow people(fundie)forget that

the apostles, like many corporate ceos today, had no idea what was going on.

and missed lots of the sermons and cool miracle stuff.

hey it pays to have priorities

how many people don't catch that. You are correct -- there were no witnesses. The narrarive assumes an omniscient narrator. It's a clue that whatever genuine quotes or anecdotes they may contain, the gospels are a work of fiction.

is the obvious answer, so they did hear some of it.

as Jesus in isolation praying to the father after he walked away from his disciples to be alone. His words, his expression, even his sweat is described. Regardless of what the disciples heard or whether there even was such a scene, the version given in the gospels is constructed, not observed. And not many people realize that.

It says Jesus took the disciples with him, and then took Peter James and John with him to be alone, and the three disciples sat less than a stones throw away from Jesus as he prayed.

so I take that as still being insight/hearing of the disciples.

Not one of them suggests any impossibility of knowing what Jesus said!

MATTHEW 26: 36-46 The disciples saw him go to pray. They heard him speak in prayer. They then fell asleep. He then comes back and finds them sleeping. Jesus wakes them and speaks to them. He goes to pray again after waking them. They hear him. They then fall asleep again. He comes back, wakes them, leaves them to pray a third time. They hear him repeating the same words. They fall asleep again. Then he comes back to the disciples and speaks to them.

MARK 14: 32-42 Essentially the same sequence as in Matthew

LUKE 22: 39-46 Goes to pray. The disciples then fall asleep, and Jesus wakes them just as he is about to be arrested. Only in Luke do we have the appearance of an angel and sweat being compared to great drops of blood. He may have been sweating profusely and on a moonlit night the drops of sweat would have appeared dark. The angel reference may simply be a pious supposition, or it could have been something that the Risen Jesus revealed to one or more of his disciples after the Resurrection. However, all the Synoptic authors stress the difficulty the disciples experienced in staying awake, and perhaps the angelic vision occurred in a dream one of them had during a period of sleep.

JOHN 18: 1-11 The Johannine author does not record the specific content of Jesus' prayer or the sleep patterns of his disciples, but simply notes that he crossed the Kedron Valley with his disciples and went to a garden to which he was accustomed to going with his disciples, and that this is where he was then arrested.

Where's the difficulty? Have you never heard something, then fallen asleep, then been awakened, then heard something, then fallen asleep again, then been awakened, then heard something?

I heard my alarm go off, listened to the radio, then fell asleep, then awoke again, heard some more on the radio, then fell asleep again, then awoke again, then heard some more radio one morning last week. It is not impossible, I assure you!

All four authors consistently record that Jesus had a meal with his disciples and then left for a garden-type location where he was arrested. If they were fabricating this, it's rather remarkable that they all choose a similar location for the arrest of Jesus, and all placed the time as following his last meal with his disciples close to the Passover Feast, and identified Judas, one of the Twelve, as his betrayer.

It reads very naturally as a basically accurate recording by separate authors of a real historical event, at least two of whom are reporting indepedent accounts of the essential facts.

Read the many eyewitness accounts of the assassination of President Kennedy. They are not all exactly the same. Does their not being exactly the same disprove that Kennedy was ever assassinated?

Hardly!

MATTHEW 26: 36-46 The disciples saw him go to pray. They heard him speak in prayer. They then fell asleep. He then comes back and finds them sleeping. Jesus wakes them and speaks to them. He goes to pray again after waking them. They hear him. They then fall asleep again. He comes back, wakes them, leaves them to pray a third time. They hear him repeating the same words. They fall asleep again. Then he comes back to the disciples and speaks to them.

Note to self: always get separate room at the inn.

"MATTHEW 26: 36-46 The disciples saw him go to pray. They heard him speak in prayer. They then fell asleep. He then comes back and finds them sleeping. Jesus wakes them and speaks to them. He goes to pray again after waking them. They hear him. They then fall asleep again. He comes back, wakes them, leaves them to pray a third time. They hear him repeating the same words. They fall asleep again. Then he comes back to the disciples and speaks to them."

Prayer #1 > Sleeping Apostles #1 > Waking The Apostles #1 > Prayer #2 > Sleeping Apostles #2 > Waking The Apostles #2 > Prayer #3 > Sleeping Apostles #3 > Waking The Apostles #3 >


"LUKE 22: 39-46 Goes to pray. The disciples then fall asleep, and Jesus wakes them just as he is about to be arrested."

Prayer #1 > Sleeping Apostles #1 > Waking The Apostles #1 > ARREST > ...

So which is it? Was he allegedly arrested after the third prayer/sleep/wake cycle, or the first?

Luke had said explicitly that the disciples fell asleep only once.

Last week, I awoke and fell asleep several times early one morning. If I later described this by saying, "I awoke and fell asleep again", I wouldn't be stating an untruth, I would just be giving an abbreviated description of what happened.

Some people are so literal-minded it's amazing they manage to make it through life without their heads exploding.

;)

Since this was your summation of the texts, and not the actual texts, I'll let it slide this time.

NT!