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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 04:34 PM
Original message
Poll question: Is astronomy ethical?
Edited on Mon Feb-04-08 04:35 PM by Boojatta
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, that is the weirdest poll question ever. nt
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. Seriously!
Anyone know what the point is?

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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. Bojatta, I hate to point out the obvious,
but you are confused. Had this post been about astrology, it might have made some sense.

Astronomy is looking at what is. Astrology is guesswork about what it might do. That is the difference.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I would go so far as to say that astrology...
...is guesswork about what it cannot possibly do.

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Burma Jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. Trees.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. No, eight.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. cornflakes!!
:silly:
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Heresy! Blaspheme! Consider yourself reported to ASIO!
Or whatever your equivalent is.

Cornflakes are the mark of the anti-pro-semi-deci-leprochrist!

(which is a bit like the antichrist, but with more, well, OOMPH)
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. Boojatta, remember the discussion we had a couple of polls back?
Look, basically, we managed to find out that there is usually something you want to know, something you want to be discussed, et cetera.

And the obtuse polls

1) Hamper discussion. Because these things mean freak-all. To anyone, except possibly you.

2) I've come to conclude they are selfish as well - you, knowing the context of the question, or at least having the most general idea as to what the hell is going on, may actually get some useful information out of this. No-one else the hell does. Just you.

3) Are much less interesting than asking us about whatever the hell question is bothering you.

4) Are going to have less discussion in each fairly quickly. The strangeness of your poll has become nearly a stereotype. A lot of regulars are not going to bother with a serious answer to a poll like this.

5) Actually, they never have. But you know what I mean.


I'm still wondering, why not post a damn question, with context.

Or better yet, why not get the part of the post or source that intrigued you, and pose to us the same problem?

This could be interesting! Graaaargh!

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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Wish I could recommend your post..
But as I said in another Bojatta poll here..using logic here is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Logic loses.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Logic has a way of stabbing people in the face.
Looking at a sample of the replies:

1) "Well, that is the weirdest poll question ever. nt"
2) "have you confused astrology and astronomy?"
3) "Trees!"
4) "Huh?"
5) "Are you from another galaxy and really, really bugged by our astronomers?"


# of posts discussing what Boojatta was talking about: Zero. Why do I say that when I don't know what boojatta was on about? Because they weren't discussing anything. That's why.

# of posts expressing the human desire to be entertained or to make sense of the nonsensical: 5

Approximate ratio: infinity.

In other words logic may be bringing a knife to a gun fight, but it is a really long knife. In poll form.
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Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. Huh?
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parasim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. Serious question.
Are you from another galaxy and really, really bugged by our astronomers?
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I am. Sylvia Brown told me that you guys are spying on us.
Since galaxies don't have curtains, I would appreciate it if you would keep your weird, non-faceted, double-eyes to yourselves.
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parasim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Relax.
A little home star luminosity measuring never hurt nobody.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. What?! You're stealing our photons too?!
:mad:
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parasim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Nah... just borrowing 'em.
Don't worry, you'll get 'em back.
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Bear down under Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. Astronomy is not only unethical, it's downright evil.
No other science so leads people to question the unquestionable truths of religion. Why else do you think Catholics were forbidden for centuries to read the writings of Copernicus and Galileo?

And it's sneaky, too. "But, but, we're not subverting religion and society, we're only studying distant galaxies, the moons of Jupiter, the atommosphere of Venus, or wahtever. What possible relevance can such things have to society?"

Do I need a sarcasm button -- and does the OP really need to put the questions in the context of the, er, faith-based assault on science that is currently occurring in certain countries which shall remain nameless?
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Good post!
Or, in more political language, I am Boojatta and I endorse that post.
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skater314159 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
16. Other...
... 'cause how the hell could Astronomy be unethical? I'm at a loss here.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. The fact that the government will not release the pictures of heaven
Edited on Mon Feb-04-08 05:55 PM by MrWiggles
taken with the hubble telescope is very unethical.
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moggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
19. Whose turn is it to do the Uranus gag?
I don't want to, but section 27(b) of the Comedy Code requires a Uranus joke in every thread about astronomers.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Since Trotsky isn't here, I'll do the honours:
What's worse than Romulans on Mars? Klingons on Uranus.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Why was Ben Dover banned from using the hubble telescope?
Because he kept trying to look up Uranus.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. According to scientists,
Uranus is uninhabitable to man because of the strong, poisonous winds and the crappy atmosphere.
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
25. I think Astronomy should be taken out of schools and universities.
It relies too much on observation and therefore hardly classifies as Science (capital S). I refuse to be distracted by things that aren't scientific.

But then I'm a Capricorn, and we tend to be that way.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Pssst!
I think you are cofusing the study of stars with the study of chakras. Now there's REAL science.
:hi:
Wow. You posted in R/T...does that mean you are in 10th grade now?:D
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. You must have me confused with some immature poster...
like temeah or racaulk.

Here's a comic I sometimes post on my exams:
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Actually chakra study is a science
Acupuncture works by redirecting chi flow emanating from the chakras.Same with Tai Chi and Yoga.
Also chanting of mantras effects the body through the vibrations they create at subatomic levels.Applied quantum physics is how I look at it.
It may sound a little loony but sometimes 'magic' is just math we don't understand yet or have forgotten.

Booj definitely posted a strange poll,whatever your take on chakras.

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edhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. When you show me
the double-blind reproducible evidence of the existence of charkras and chi I'll accept their existence.
If these are some form of energy, then they are measurable, yet no one seems to be able to measure them.
Yes people claim results from these activities. Nothing that can't be explained by straight forward physiology. No hoodoo needed.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Like I say
Math we do not understand yet or have forgotten.

Gravity is another type of physics we do not completely understand yet we still make use of it.
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edhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. And yet,
we can measure Gravity it with very fine precision. Unlike "chi"
"Math we do not understand yet or have forgotten." is a very nice new age type sentence that is completely meaningless. It shows a lack of understanding of real science.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. So you know how gravity works?
Do tell.The worlds leading physisists would love to hear about it.
We can measure gravity but no one has quite figured out how it actually works.Though some say those who are working on String Theory(You know.That theory that says everything is composed of vibrating strings of energy?) may be able to crack that nut.

Same thing with Ayuvedic or traditional Chinese Medicine.It may not be demonstratable with traditional western scientific methods but enough knowledge exists to make it usable.And if they chose to do so I am sure such practioners could demonstrate it to your standards.Furthermore,I wouldn't be surprised if it has been done and we have just never heard about it.Last time I checked the AMA was not to hip when it comes to alternative medicine.

One more thing.A little anecdotal evidence if you will: Have you looked up the populations of China and India lately?Those countrys do not have such massive populations due to their reliance on western medicine.


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edhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Ah, your so clever.
I said you could MEASURE Gravity, unlike chi. Gravity obviously exist, unlike chi. And Einstein had some pretty good ideas about Gravity, if you read the specific theory of relativity.

Actually these practioners have been asked to demonsrtate to western standards (it's called science) and have pretty much failed.

So a high birth rate is a sign of good medicine. Good try. Look at life expectency and infant mortality and get back to me.
Sheesh what a silly agrument.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Check this out
Seems that someone has found a way to actually measure Chi. http://www.google.com/search?q=ryodoraku.&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8
Oh wait.Theres more.
From the wiki entry on TCM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_medicine
The World Health Organisation (WHO), the National Institutes of Health (NIH), and the American Medical Association (AMA) have also commented on acupuncture<1><2>. Though these groups disagree on the standards and interpretation of the evidence for acupuncture, there is general agreement that it is relatively safe, and that further investigation is warranted. The 1997 NIH Consensus Development Conference Statement on acupuncture concluded:

...promising results have emerged, for example, showing efficacy of acupuncture in adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain. There are other situations such as addiction, stroke rehabilitation, headache, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, osteoarthritis, low back pain, carpal tunnel syndrome, and asthma, in which acupuncture may be useful as an adjunct treatment or an acceptable alternative or be included in a comprehensive management program. Further research is likely to uncover additional areas where acupuncture interventions will be useful.



Aother tidbit from wiki to take into consideration.
There is some notion that TCM requires supernatural forces or even cosmology to explain itself. However most historical accounts of the system will acknowledge it was invented by a culture of people that were already tired of listening to shamans trying to blame illnesses on evil spirits;<2> any reference to supernatural forces is usually the result of romantic translations or poor understanding and will not be found in the Taoist-inspired classics of acupuncture such as the Nèi Jīng or Zhēnjiǔ Dàchéng. The system's development has, over its history, been analysed both skeptically and extensively, and the practice and development of it has waxed and waned over the centuries and cultures through which it has travelled<3> - yet the system has still survived this far. It is true that the focus from the beginning has been on pragmatism, not necessarily understanding of the mechanisms of the actions - and that this has hindered its modern acceptance in the West.




Seems there have been formal studies of yoga here in the US(University of Texas.Sorry,don't have a link to the formal study.Just a mention in wiki article.) which show its benefits.Yoga works by manipulating those same chakras and chi that you say doesn't exist.
This is from wiki's yoga entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_%28alternative_medicine%29


The popularization in the West of the medical aspect of Yoga is largely attributed to Dr.Swami Sivananda Saraswati's Bihar School of Yoga. Most yoga classes consist of a combination of physical exercises, breathing exercises, and meditation. These characteristics make yoga a particularly beneficial kind of exercise for people with certain health conditions, including heart disease/hypertension, asthma, and back problems.

For people with heart problems, studies have shown yoga to help people young and old. Specifically, yoga seems to promote heart health in several ways, including regulating high blood pressure and improving resistance to psychological stress.<12> Yoga also has the potential to buffer against the harmful effects of bodily self-objectification as well as to promote embodiment and well-being.<13>


Breast cancer studies
In 2006, scientists at the University Of Texas conducted an experiment on 61 breast cancer patients. Thirty of the patients participated in yoga around the time of their radiation treatments. The yoga was customized for the cancer patients; it focused on breathing and relaxation, and excluded difficult exercises, given possible limitations on range of motion. The study found increased physical function, slightly better levels of social functioning, and lower levels of sleep dysfunction and fatigue. There was no difference in rates of anxiety or depression.<14>

There are many studies available now that confirm success from patients doing Yoga, a minimum of twice weekly, while undergoing treatments for their breast cancer.<15><16>


True,their life expectancies and infant mortality rates are not as good as western countries.However,when compared to places with little access to either style of medicine,there rates are not so high.
I wonder if there are records from India China and the US of birth rates and life expectancies from a couple of hundred years ago.It would be interesting to see how the rates match up before western medicine hit its stride.

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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. WOW! Wikipedia is an impeccable source.
Edited on Wed Feb-06-08 11:18 PM by cosmik debris
Almost everything in wikipedia is close to the truth. How can you go wrong citing wiki articles.

I know I'm sure impressed!

And that google reference is priceless. Are you going to be another Dr. Google?


:sarcasm:
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. That first Google link, Ryodoraku
Why did I know it was going to be a device measuring skin's electrical resistance? That's always the method touted as the breakthrough in "subtle energy" detection. Hubbard's E-meter, Radionics, the mighty Quantum Medical Consciousness Interface System... has there ever been a device miraculously reborn as often as the humble ohmmeter?
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. How can you question something that says "quantum"
Everybody knows that saying "quantum" means you are too smart to be challenged!

And the seller of that Ryodoraku ohm meter is in Latvia so he doesn't have to deal with that anti-science FDA!

And there was also a link for a chiropractor--a doctor of chiropractic.

Yep, I'm really impressed with those references.

I give that poster a quantum :rofl:
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Yes
I am sure eating tiger penis does wonders for ones health (traditional chinese medicine). They have more people but shorter life spans.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. LOL
I have a feeling it would not do you much good.
As for me,I need neither tiger penis nor viagra.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Umm biological functions can be very accurately measured
I can and have done tests that measure the EXACT concentration of drug in a patients blood or the precise amount of antibody produced by a vaccine. No need for chakra voodoo.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. And please keep doing so.
I am not saying Eastern medicines are better than Western medicine.What I am saying is that they are different and differant does not mean good or bad.It just means not the same.

Read up on TCM or Ayurvedic medicines sometime.It might really surprise you.



PS.Just noticed your sig line.Why do I get the feeling there are some interesting stories behind it?
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #43
53. heh. I like to hang out in the lounge....
That is all.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
64. Any medicine or medical technique...
...Eastern or Western, can be measured for how effective it is or isn't. Further, the explanation for any efficacy discovered can be valid or invalid. There are a lot of medicines and techniques that are no more effective than placebos, and the placebo effect is a much, much more likely explanation for why these things "work" than any back-story about chi, chakras, "healing energy", etc.

Is Eastern medicine so different from Western that you have to exclude horribly stodgy Western practices like statistical analysis of controlled experiments in order to evaluate it "correctly"? Nothing but anecdotal evidence will do?
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. Studies like this one?
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. I'm sure that a number of scattered medicines...
...and techniques have, and will, be proven effective to some degree or another.

But there's nothing there, for instance, to prove that if a particular acupuncture technique happens to be effective, that the underlying model of "lines of chi" has a damned thing to do with it. Most of the studies of acupuncture I've seen place it's effectiveness at no higher than placebo effect. Where acupuncture may turn out to be effective, the mechanism may well turn out to be something like a release of endorphins, and careful placement of the needles may well be superfluous.

Consider that many studies are based on a 95% confidence interval for the statistical signs of success. Do enough studies, and by pure chance you'll stumble on some positive results now and then that really don't mean much until replicated and verified by other researchers.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. Actually you have just proved a point I make frequently
Modern medicine DOES study some of this stuff seriously, such as acupuncture. Most MD's acknowledge that it has health benefits, but its not QUITE the cure all some claim it to be.
Also many traditional herbs/supplements have been tested to see if they really have benefits. Some do, (flaxseeds do seem to be a good cancer preventative), some don't (shark cartiledge).
Anyone who says science ignores this stuff does not follow the field closely.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
65. Re: Ayurvedic Treatments
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 01:20 PM by cosmik debris
Ayurvedic medications have the potential to be toxic. Many materials used in them have not been thoroughly studied in either Western or Indian research. In the United States, Ayurvedic medications are regulated as dietary supplements (a category of foods; see box below). As such, they are not required to meet the rigorous standards for conventional medicines. An American study published in 2004 found that of 70 Ayurvedic remedies purchased over-the-counter (all had been manufactured in South Asia), 14 (one-fifth) contained lead, mercury, and/or arsenic at levels that could be harmful. Also in 2004, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention received 12 reports of lead poisoning linked to the use of Ayurvedic medications.


http://nccam.nih.gov/health/ayurveda/#concerns

And just for laughs:

Ancient Ayurvedic texts describe each herb as a packet of vibrations that specifically match a vibration in the quantum mechanical body. All bodily organs, for example, the liver, the stomach and the heart are built up from a specific sequence of vibrations at the quantum level. In the case of a malfunction, some disruption of the proper sequence in these vibrations is at fault. According to Ayurveda, a herb exists with this exact same sequence, and when applied, it can help restore the organ's functioning.


http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/chopra.html

And when the laughing stops:

Heavy Metal Content of Ayurvedic Herbal Medicine Products
Robert B. Saper, MD, MPH; Stefanos N. Kales, MD, MPH; Janet Paquin, PhD; Michael J. Burns, MD; David M. Eisenberg, MD; Roger B. Davis, ScD; Russell S. Phillips, MD


JAMA. 2004;292:2868-2873.

Context Lead, mercury, and arsenic intoxication have been associated with the use of Ayurvedic herbal medicine product (HMPs).

Objectives To determine the prevalence and concentration of heavy metals in Ayurvedic HMPs manufactured in South Asia and sold in Boston-area stores and to compare estimated daily metal ingestion with regulatory standards.

Design and Setting Systematic search strategy to identify all stores 20 miles or less from Boston City Hall that sold Ayurvedic HMPs from South Asia by searching online Yellow Pages using the categories markets, supermarkets, and convenience stores, and business names containing the word India, Indian cities, and Indian words. An online national directory of Indian grocery stores, a South Asian community business directory, and a newspaper were also searched. We visited each store and purchased all unique Ayurvedic HMPs between April 25 and October 24, 2003.

Main Outcome Measures Concentrations (µg/g) of lead, mercury, and arsenic in each HMP as measured by x-ray fluorescence spectroscopy. Estimates of daily metal ingestion for adults and children estimated using manufacturers’ dosage recommendations with comparisons to US Pharmacopeia and US Environmental Protection Agency regulatory standards.

Results A total of 14 (20%) of 70 HMPs (95% confidence interval, 11%-31%) contained heavy metals: lead (n = 13; median concentration, 40 µg/g; range, 5-37 000), mercury (n = 6; median concentration, 20 225 µg/g; range, 28-104 000), and/or arsenic (n = 6; median concentration, 430 µg/g; range, 37-8130). If taken as recommended by the manufacturers, each of these 14 could result in heavy metal intakes above published regulatory standards.

Conclusions One of 5 Ayurvedic HMPs produced in South Asia and available in Boston South Asian grocery stores contains potentially harmful levels of lead, mercury, and/or arsenic. Users of Ayurvedic medicine may be at risk for heavy metal toxicity, and testing of Ayurvedic HMPs for toxic heavy metals should be mandatory.


http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/292/23/2868
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. Western drugs.
http://images.google.com/images?q=Thalidomide&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/12/18/maker_cites_heart_risk_in_celebrex/
Maker cites heart risk in Celebrex
By Diedtra Henderson, Globe Staff | December 18, 2004

WASHINGTON—The National Cancer Institute halted a three-year international study using Celebrex because long-term use of the painkiller at high doses more than tripled risk of heart problems, the drug’s manufacturer said yesterday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6192603/
Merck & Co.’s arthritis drug Vioxx may have led to more than 27,000 heart attacks and sudden cardiac deaths before it was pulled from the market last week, the Wall Street Journal reported Wednesday, citing an unreleased study by government regulators.

Should I mention Methyldiamphetamine? Or cocaine? Or Vicadin and Oxycontin?





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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. You said read up on it and I did. And posted some facts.
You can change the subject if you want to, but that doesn't change the facts that I posted.

It is not that easy to cover up.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. I have no problem
with a study showing the dangers of a drug.
East and West both have a history of mistakes.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. You sure were quick to change the subject
When I posted evidence that Ayurvedic medicine may be toxic.

And rationalizing that Ayurvedic medicine is comparable to Thalidomide is hardly a great endorsement.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. FYI, cocaine has health benefits in some cases
anaesthetic properties. Oxycontin and Vicodin are VERY GOOD at what they are prescribed for. THey are however overproscribed and frequently abused BECAUSE they are so effective.
FYI, how often does the media report on all the drugs that work well and do what they are supposed to do. Most people only hear of the bad cases and conclude based on too little data that all pharmaceuticals are flawed. Read about clinical trials sometime..10 years of serious complicated research to bring a drug to market.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. But its quantum physics or so he says LOL
I'd like to know what the quantum part is. That should be easy enough to measure since it is in quanta. Right?

:rofl:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. I'm glad to know I'm your favorite
I'll always be here for you!
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Really?
Funny how all the scientists I know (biologists like me) have never ever uttered that word from their mouths. No science. Nope.
True pseudoscience.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
46. Bullshit. Of course, I could be wrong.
"Acupuncture works by redirecting chi flow emanating from the chakras"

Have you actually measured this? I read that wiki link, and it basically said that people have come up with a way of sticking in needles and whatever to affect nerves, (which was good), and blamed it on chakra (which has absolutely no evidence).

"Also chanting of mantras effects the body through the vibrations they create at subatomic levels"

Do you know what a chant is? What the vibrations involved are? Compression and rarefaction of the air... as a population of particles. Not on a subatomic level at all.

Or do you have evidence against that notion as well?

"Applied quantum physics is how I look at it."

Fascinating. Of course, if you know any applied quantum at all, you'd be able to tell some of the basics.

Let's start with the quantisation of energy. Then you can move onto some simple examples - for instance the difference in energy levels depending upon confinement.

Pretty basic stuff.

Or, I could conclude that you actually have very little or no idea as to what quantum physics is about.

So, step up to the plate. Defend your beliefs.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Did you catch the part where I said
physics we don't understand yet?Or have forgotten?Eastern Medicines are geared towards getting results.How it works has until only recently been mostly ignored.But that is changing.And I will be the first to admit it won't be me that acheives that breakthrough.

As for what quantum physics,correct me if I am wrong,but I seem to remember learning in college physics classes that it is the study of small scale atomic structures.( I attended an aviation related university.Accordingly the physics we were being taught were based more on classical mechanics,with an emphasis on Fluid dynamics.99% of which I have forgotten as I am no longer in that field)
Like what the String Theory guys are working on.
But then,that was twenty years ago and until recently I only kept up with current theorys on a laymans level.
It may well be that that chanting has no effect at sub atomic levels,But then I remember the Butterfly Effect and Chaos theory along with what I am hearing on the String Theory front and it strikes me that this is a feild of study that should be followed up on.

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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. In other words, You got nothing. n/t
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. No, I didn't miss it.
Whether or not you think it is based on physics that we know about, to make a claim -any claim - you do have to be able to measure something. You do have to be able to know there is something there.

Yes, quantum has lots about subatomic, and lots on atomic, and so on. Though it is general enough to deal with large objects when the effect of gravity is not large, it tends to a limit that is the same as classical physics so we just use that as it is close enough.

Meh.

That is not what I was talking about. I was talking about a mantra affecting subatomic things. I could go on about how compression and rarefaction of the air is much larger than subatomic, but really, what I am after here is evidence for your claims that "chanting of mantras effects the body through the vibrations they create at subatomic levels".

What vibrations? How were they measured?

Are some good starting questions.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. heh. I think this forum needs a warning label for people who use "quantum" inappropriately


:thumbsup:
(I suppose the same thing could be said for Skeptics who mention..umm. butt candles....:P )
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Butt candles?
You may like them but I fail to see the relevance.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Ask R_A...
He'll be sooo happy to tell you all about them......:rofl:
(I'm in such trouble....):)
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. Hmmmm!
Why do I get the feeling that falls under the category of things I am better off not knowing.

Oh wait.I remember now.It was in a thread concerning some schools new discipline problem concerning exploding ass trick theory
That was a funny thread.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. And how do you define quantum?
Since you are the expert prove to me that it does not have an effect.
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edhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. It is up to those who
propose something, whether it is a medical procedure, a new theory of physics or God, to offer proof. It is not up to those who doubt offer proof against it.

I say that green bunnies make me breakfast in the morning, prove me wrong.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. That's a Pookah!--Beware!
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 10:13 AM by cosmik debris
County Kerry has a six-foot-tall white rabbit called the Pookah, and this rabbit hangs around pubs late at night. When people get thrown out of the pubs at 10:30 (which is when they close), the Pookah waits and grabs one of them on his way home and drags him off into an alternative reality, where all the laws of science are reversed, time and space are all mixed up. It's very much like one of my novels -- although I like this new movie, Jacob's Ladder. And you spend thousands and thousands of years over there -- millenniums -- and you meet Finn MacCool and all the ancient Irish heroes: the Wizard of Oz, Luke Skywalker, Shiva, Krishna, the Devas -- all these figures.

When the Pookah gets tired of playing with you and lets you go, you're back on the road and it's only a few minutes after you left the pub -- because the Pookah can reverse time, stretch time, condense it, anything like that. The Pookah is not limited by time.

Of course, the probability of encountering the Pookah is said by Dublin's cynics to be directly proportional to the number of pints of Guinness Stout you had in the pub that night.

Walker: (laughs)

Wilson: I heard a Kerry farmer interviewed on Irish Radio, ... and they asked him, "Do you believe in the Pookah yourself?"

And he said , "That I do not! and I doubt much that he believes in me either!"


http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/rawilson.htm

This interview with R.A. Wilson is relevant in so many ways. But if you are not familiar with Wilson, you should remember that he has the most perverse sense of humor.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. A pookah? Like Harvey?...


:)

Sid
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. More like Harvey's evil twin! n/t
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. Do they serve you green eggs and ham?
Send me your address and I will prove you wrong.

You are starting to remind me of an old saying-There is no greater barrier to learning then contempt before investigation.
Western science does not hold a monopoly on advancing knowledge in the world.To think otherwise is rather xenophobic IMO.
Isn't that one of the hallmarks of the knuckledraggers in the riech-wing?
Is having an open mind no longer a liberal trait?


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edhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. my green bunnies
only serve me when no one else is around. You can come over and see the breakfast. Then you can try to prove they were not there.

It's not "western science", it's science, and it's built on principles of reproducible results and cause and effect.
It's funny, in Asia they practiced their wonderful "eastern medicine" for hundreds, if not thousands of years. But they only had improvement in the health of the general population once they started using what you would call "western medicine."
And no I don't have "contempt before investigation". I have read many articles about these practices, I find their efficacy highly unlikely.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #66
76. I HATE HATE HATE the phrase "Western Science".
It's a stupid distinction. There is no Eastern Science. There is only science, and fake-ass-shit-that-wants-to-be-science, i.e. pseudoscience.

There are plenty of chinese, japanese, russian, etc scientists who think that their countrymen are full of shit when they wave their hands magically above other people and expect it to cure them.

Got Ignorance?

heh.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. I can understand that.
Poor choice of words on my part.
There is more to Eastern Medicine then a doctor waving his hands in the air.In chi gong it is up to the patient to wave his hands in the air!:hide: :rofl:

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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. Science holds a monopoly on advancing scientific knowledge.
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 02:11 PM by Donald Ian Rankin
Not all science is Western (although most of it originates in the first world), but all non-scientific methods of trying to answer scientific questions are incredibly flawed at best and totally worthless in most cases.

It is the supporters of unscientific twaddle like "chakra study" who are showing contempt for investigation by clinging to claims not supported by reliable scientific enquiry (or, in many cases, rejecting the results of such inquiry when it shows that they are bullshit).

There is nothing closed-minded about rejecting positions which are not supported by evidence.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Check thread #60
Just a couple of links to western studies of Eastern medicine.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
80. "define"quantum? What the hell are you talking about?
This isn't some piece of flipping literature, you know. This isn't something whose effects are particularly open to interpretation.

And I'm going to have to one-up you on the "prove to me that it does not have an effect" - can you prove to me that there is no invisible faster-than-light meteor that will destroy the earth unless you give me twenty dollars? Can you?

No.

What do we conclude from this? That there is a lot of bullshit that "can't be disproven", and the fact that you can't disprove something means absolutely nothing. It is no indicator of whether or not something is bullshit.

However, we do have other indicators. Like, for instance, making claims about what is happening without actually measuring anything.

For instance, saying that mantras affect things at the subatomic level. How did you conclude that one? What physical phenomena did you observe that made you think something was going on?

I think we both know the answer was "none at all".

And that is a realiable indicator that your claims aren't worth the electrons they are bieng shown with.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
28. Where's the "WTF?" option?
Shouldn't that be a standard choice for any Boojata poll?

Sid
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
72. Hey boojatta
Thanks for the poll!!!
:rofl:
Best threadjacking I have been part of in a long while!
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edhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #72
81. I second that.
:toast:
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Aren't you setting a bad example by posting in this thread?
Actually, you should feel perfectly free, as the spirit moves you, to ignore any thread that I create. Given the number of threads on DU, it would be somewhat odd if almost every substandard OP evoked "too strange", "just not interesting", or some such posted responses. For some reason the phrase "get a life" comes to mind.

As for hijacking, there was no sign that this particular thread was going to have a very bright on-topic future anyway. If this thread was a convenient place to have a discussion, then it just goes to show that even the darkest, cloudiest Boojatta poll can have a silver lining.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. A question: Why did you underline substandard?
Are you saying the poll was deliberately substandard?

And once again, you show enough wit and intelligence to make it clear you would be interesting to talk to, and yet it is on a thread that once again shows how you love to hide in mystery & nonsense.

In-fucking-furiating.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. Okay Booj...
I have to admit that "it just goes to show that even the darkest, cloudiest Boojatta poll can have a silver lining"...is pretty funny. Its also funny that the threadjacking occured because of a random joke I was making with a friend....:rofl:
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
82. Astronomy has nothing to do with ethics. nt
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
86. Oh WTF
What the hell are you trying to ask and why. Also are you retarded or did you purposely make mistakes in your 'answers'?

"No, observation of events changes events. Astronomers are affecting life in other galaxies even though they know nothing about societies in other galaxies."

Suffer from a serious misunderstanding of scientific principles much lately?
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
87. Enjoy
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
88. I guess that it depends on your religion.
Astronomy does not offend my personal beliefs in anyway. Though it does threaten some people's paychecks and their power over others.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
89. Kicking an R/T Classic
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. A year later, another kick.
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