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To what degree is the Old Testament anti-semitic?

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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:58 PM
Original message
Poll question: To what degree is the Old Testament anti-semitic?
Example:
Deuteronomy 28 (King James Version)

Note that verse 64 makes it clear that the reference is not to people who practice Judaism, but to descendants of the audience who practice any religion that is different from Judaism. It promises collective punishment of people based on their ancestry.


58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;

59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.

60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.

61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.

63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:

66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:

67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.

68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.

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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 09:00 PM
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1. ...
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realisticphish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 09:08 PM
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2. ?
how in the world is that passage anti-semetic? (assuming you are defining "Semetic" as "Jews")
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. anti-Semitism, noun : the intense dislike for and prejudice against Jewish people
Is it not prejudiced to promise punishment of people based on their ancestry and based on them not following practices prescribed in the OT? The fact of not following those practices can take the form of absence of religion or any religion that differs from what is prescribed in the OT.
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realisticphish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. actually
semites include pretty much every middle eastern tribe, including assyrians, etc. I wasn't sure if you were using the common usage, or the historical/anthropological usage.

But all that aside, the OT is Judaism (well, part of it). It may very well advocate prejudice, but it is from the context of being within the jewish faith. It is not inherently anti-jewish. It's like saying that Christ saying one must believe in him to enter into heaven makes the New Testament anti-christian :shrug:
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. "It's like saying..."
It's like saying that Christ saying one must believe in him to enter into heaven makes the New Testament anti-christian.


Are you sure that the parts of the NT that command belief in Jesus aren't anti-Christian? I suppose it depends on how one defines "Christian." For example, in the following quote Jesus doesn't try to define the word "Christian", but he does identify only two things that -- in his opinion -- one must do "to inherit eternal life." If there's a third item that he omitted, then what is it? Are you sure that he would say that after the two things he identified, the one next in importance is believing in Jesus?

Luke 10 (King James Version)

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbor?

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbor unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. The term you're after is "compositional".
"Anti-Semitic" has had a well-established lexical meaning for over a century.

It has a possible compositional meaning: anti- + Semitic. "Anti-Semitic" would mean being opposed to Semites. If you're a linguist, that includes Ethiopians, Eritreans, and Somalis, not just Jews and Assyrians and Socotrans and Arabs. If you're an ethnologist, you have to slice-and-dice the Semitic speakers into groups, presumably, mostly based on some sort of substratum ethnic type. At least some ethnologists would exclude the African contingent because they need a convenient term for people living in the extreme SW of Asia (some include N. Africans, some don't--most N. Africans in the Maghreb are mostly Berber, almost-but-not-quite Semitic, per most linguists and certainly contra Qaddhafi).

"Semite" is a funny ethnonym, in any event. It's really best seen like "Aryan" used to be, a linguistic group.

However, "anti-Semitic" would be "anti-" Semites in general, not any specific group, if you go for the compositional reading. Again, for Gricean reasons, essentially because of the principle of maximality: say all you can. (So anti-European can't properly be construed to mean just "anti-Andorran".)

Oddly, there are a number of words in English that have clear, common lexical meanings and uncommon compositional meanings, but which are disputed and interpreted only or preferentially to have compositional meanings. (Sometimes you can describe both meanings as compositional, but not in a straight-forward manner: often there's a bit of of coercion, the linguistic kind, involved.) Usually the disputes are there not to enlighten, but to obfuscate, distract from the topic, and produce either confusion and shut down the discussion or provoke outrage and shut down the discussion, or at least change the topic. Both point to the etymological fallacy, and both use language not to communicate, but to forestall communication.

There's a lot of that kind of behavior in US and world politics. If conversation involves a speaker saying words in order to express his/her meaning as well as a hearer who has to employ good will in order to construe the most likely meaning (something Grice would probably agree with, in principle), then the reason is obvious: If you can wrest control of the process, you can wrest control of the conversation. Then you privilege yourself as speaker and yourself as hearer, and disenfranchise the other in the conversation. Even if you can't wrest control, you can still attempt a sufficiently plausible smear to make the other guy stop and defend himself. Power politics motivates this kind of lack of cooperation in discourse. (The other common kind is even less enlightened: People simply don't want to hear opinions that don't echo and reinforce their own. http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_8964560 seems appropriate here.)
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Would you support a "Communications" forum for DU?
It would be an open forum like "Economy", "Education", "Justice", or "Poverty."
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
5. Well given that a bunch of the victims of Israelite genocide were Semites, quite a bit
I mean the Amelekites, Canaanites etc were pretty much Semitic surely?
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. You could try posting that as a separate thread.
I see some potential difficulties with your analysis:

1. There are debates about whether or not a man anything like Jesus ever lived. What information from outside the OT do you have to substantiate the claim that there was in fact a genocide of Amelekites and Canaanites?

2. It seems that you are analyzing the word "anti-Semitic" as meaning hostility to anyone of a Semitic ethnicity, but that doesn't seem to be the ordinary meaning of the word, either as originally used or as it is used today.

Also, it might be worth noting that unless, for example, there are currently some communities of adherents of Judaism who stone a woman to death when she is caught in the act of adultery, the OT is not today accepted as a literal prescription for actual practice.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. or it could be
a simple reminder that Semites are not always Jews, and also one that whatever horrors are in the bible are pretty evenly distributed.

Not everything is intended to be detailed exegesis, nor is every topic worthy of it.
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ptolomeus Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. Philistines were 'semitic' too
You would have to make a distinction between each meaning of the word "semitic". Which one are you using?
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'm sure Boojata means "ANTISEMITISM" as it was coined by Wilhelm Marr
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 07:35 AM by MrWiggles
Throughout history, antisemitism has been directed against Judaism and its values. Not against all semitic people.

Antisemitism was another word coined for judenhass (Jew-hatred) by Wilhelm Marr. Marr wanted to replace judenhass with a word that would make Jew-haters sound less vulgar and even somewhat "scientific" (as if Jews were a race).

Hitler himself had no compunctions about welcoming (Semitic) Arab leaders to Berlin during World War II. Does that mean that Hitler was not an antisemite?
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. It's unclear if the Philistines were Semitic.
Actually, that's weaselly, even for me.

Try #2, for clarity: There's almost no chance that the Philistines were Semitic.

The Philistines were one of the groups that formed the Sea Peoples (aka "Peoples of the Sea", as though that makes things any clearer). There's a bit of controversy as to where the Sea Peoples came from.

Currently I think I buy Woodhuiser's analysis: They were a confederacy, with a number of European (yet not Indo-European) and Anatolian (at least partly Indo-European) groups represented. I don't recall hearing that any Semites formed the Sea Peoples, in his view.

I have heard, and currently reject, the view that the Israelitish tribe of Dan was among the Sea Peoples, part of the argument that either Dan migrated out early (and went elsewhere: Anglo-Israelism's take on the matter) or were Sea Peoples that were integrated into the Israelitish confederacy (i.e., they migrated in around the same time as the various Israelitish tribes, and may or may not have been Semitic). But in any event, Dan and the Philistines are distinct groups.
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