Dissatisfied agnostic seeking info about Quaker religion

Books or links, please? I consider myself an agnostic who is "seeking," I guess you could say. Some days I wake up believing that there surely must be something out there; other days, I'm convinced that this is it. I wish I could settle my soul on the issue. On the whole, I am an extremely spiritual person who finds comfort in nature, it's the closest I feel to a God-force, if there is one. I've considered investigating paganism. Was raised a Methodist -- but Christian rituals make no sense to me, they never did. To me, Jesus was just a great teacher and the Bible is mostly a book of myths. I'm wondering to what degree Christian beliefs and the Bible are a part of the Quaker belief system? I'm also investigating the Unitarian church, it seems open to ragtags like me.

Thanks for your advice/guidance.

You'll find links for both the International and American chapters as well as lots of research items.

and I took one of those online quizzes that supposedly match you to a specific religion.

The one it picked for me I hadn't even heard of, but am coming to realize is the religion of many progressives and liberals.

Universal Unitarians. It seems each church has it's own feel, but it's much more spiritual than religious. They take readings from all types of religions and important thinkers.

The one parish I'm considering here has great pride in its gardens, and they're very earth-oriented. Others have a bit more of a pagan bent, and some are almost traditional.

Just something else to think about.
FSC

I can't bring myself to believe in the supernatural, but I'm not willing to say that there's nothing beyond the physical universe. (Although I firmly believe that physical laws govern the physical universe.)

I was raised in a wonderful church -- the Episcopal church. Currently I'm signed up for Bishop Spong's newsletter, and I have a feeling that's where I'll find a spiritual life if one is meant for me.

Many of the great Progressive movements were spearheaded by Quakers... Abolition, Suffereage, anti-Death Penalty, pro-Peace, and Migrant Rights. They are as internal a religion as Christianity has ever produced (guided more by principles rather than dogma or ritual). They have no central authority, at least not in the traditional sense. They do have a kind of natioanal board, but it's not really binding on members. Members are allowed to disagree, and tolerance is certainly the cornerstone. Investigtate: www.quaker.org

I am a Unitarian and believe me you will find a lot of folks just like you in our little denomination. Check us out! There is a Unitarian Universalist web page -actually there are a few.....check out purposes and principles. I can't remember the exact URL for any of the pages but a google search will take you to a few.

I've heard wonderful things about the Unitarian church. In fact, I believe it's the closest to our Founders' faith. (Excluding Franklin, I guess.)

christians of different denominations attending church together. Most of the founders were congregationalists, presbyterians and episcopalians.

And yes, there were a lot of Unitarian founders including a relative of mine, Dr. Benjamin Rush. I think that they would find the denomination greatly changed howerever.

as in Society of Friends

I have some Quakers way, way back in my family history somewhere too.

It is really an inspiring religion, Quakers have my utmost respect in the way they really live their beliefs and their unyielding respect for the equality and divinity of ALL LIVING PERSONS.

My husband's grandfather ran a stop on the Underground Railroad from his barn in Indiana.

Of all the religions of his time, Benjamin Franklin said only the Society of Friends was the one that he truly admired and would ever consider being an affirmed member of (he didn't adhere to any formal practice of religion).

Ben's opinion of the Quakers says a lot to me too.

You're far more likely to find religion in your soul, than to find your soul in religion. Just a suggestion.

:-)

for high school, and we attended the Boulder Freinds Meeting during my adolescence so I can tell you about my experiences with Quakerism.

It may vary regionally, but where I was exposed to Quakerism there was little or nothing of actual dogma. It is extremely open to whatever your own belief system is. It is not authoritarian at all, but on the other hand, it offers little in the way of actual spiritual guidance if that's what you're looking for.

Because of Quakerisms belief in pacifism, there was a huge influx into it during the Vietnam war, and that has, to a certain extent, shaped the Quakerism that I experienced.

The highschool that I went to resembled a hippy commune in some ways. It was an environment that encouraged free and liberal thinking, but at the same time, there was alot of sex and drugs. In fact, our unofficial school motto was "sex, drugs, and rock'n roll".:)

If you're looking for a nice, open, liberal community that supports your own spirituality without giving you much in the way of actual sets of beliefs or dogma, Quakerism might be for you.

If you're looking for something that's a little more structured and less free wheeling, you may want to look at something else.

This is just my experience. I've actually heard that there are some older Quaker communities that are practically fundamentalist, and in the Eastern part of the country, I'm sure that they are far more traditionalist than out here in hippie Boulder.:)

I'm not currently affiliated with any religion, as I really like secularism, and can find my own spiritual meaning just in my understanding of the world. However, I may get involved in the Freinds Meeting again if they bring back the draft in order to help kids trying to seek CO status.

Hope this info is helpful.

I haven't seen the newer set of queries.

When I say we got very little religious intstruction in our school, I mean it.

It has quotes from the founders, ideals that Quakers should strive for (all of the secular, at least in my copy) and the queries...questions for the individual and the meeting to ask and compare their action to the ideal. These are a couple from my old copy that are very relevant for today...a lot of the rest have to do with race relations that are more tied to 60's.

Are you honest in your daily work and in all your personal relationships? Do you maintain integrity in your dealings with government authorities and other outward concerns? Do you guard against covetousness, remembering that the quality of life does not depend on the abundance of possessions? Do you seek to discern how much of your time, talents and resources you should devote to the service of others?

Do you cherish an understanding and forgiving spirit? Do you avoid unkind gossip and the spreading of rumour? Do you avoid damaging the reputation of others? Do you cultivate an appreciation of each individual's worth?

Although non-religious, I do kind of wish that I had gotten a little more instruction in the major tenets of Quakerism at school. We did have to take a couple of classes in Quakerism, but I think they mainly dealt with history rather than religious tenets. It was a long time ago, so my memory may be fuzzy, but I remember what I learned in Comparative Religions much more vividly.

As I said, when (I don't think if:-( ) the draft comes back, I will probably be getting involved in our local Friends Meeting again, to help would be COs. That's how my mom first became acquainted with them in the early sixties before she was married.

on The East Coast was much the same, except for the sex. Most of those young ladies doublessly graduated virgins.

I wanted to become a quaker because I liked the politics and acceptacnce there. I attended Quaker churches in Boston and Berkeley. Basically, anyone can speak at a service if they want. There is no pastor or sermon but I've heard some congregations have them. The service can be spiritual, political, or just disjointed depending on those who speak. A traditional Quaker marriage is that the couple goes into the sanctuary and leaves when they feel married. I think it's more complex than that but I was considering a Quaker marriage and I just didn't get it. So, yes I will go back to a Quaker meeting, I respect their beliefs, and honor their political activism but the the service was too unstructured for me. I often didn't have a spiritual experience at the meetings.

I have yet to officially join a specific Friends meeting, but my own experiences with Quakers pretty much mirror what everyone's been saying here.

We tend to insist on an experimental knowledge of God - one reason why there's so little in the way of dogma among Friends. It's basically the same thing that scientists do with physics, astronomy, geology, etc. As you might guess, Quakers seem less likely to fall for creationism or other dogmatic nonsense than our more evangelical brethren.

Friends Committee on National Legislation
http://www.fcnl.org

American Friends Service Committee
http://www.afsc.org

Friends Council on Education
http://www.friendscouncil.org

for taking the time to reply so thoughtfully to this thread. Everything you've posted here will be very helpful, I can't thank you enough!

I was raised Catholic but have grown unhappy with the politics of my religion. I read this thread and I must say I am intrigued by this faith. I really like the pacifism angle too, I'm definitely going to seek out more information.

I just know this would piss off my family (many generations of Catholics), they are already mad that I don't go to church any more but I can't actively support a religion that I have lost faith in

A person risked being disfellowshipped or excommunicated just by marrying someone outside his or her religion. It happened among Friends, as well - Betsy Ross, who grew up in a Quaker family, was disowned by the Friends for the unpardonable sin of marrying an Anglican. I do not approve of disowning because of intermarriage between denominations, although I confess that had a Quaker or an Anglican married a Scientologist or a Ramtha disciple, I would be scratching my head in puzzlement.

History students may remember that the Quakers broke away from the Anglicans, as did the Baptists, Pilgrims, Puritans, etc.

is the day I would find another. I congratulate you. No denomination (no religion either) has a lock on God.

What I know of the Quakers is hearing about the Christian Peacemaker Teams. http://www.cpt.org/
They have teams who go to troubled areas and do what is called "getting in the way". They literally put themselves between tanks and civilians. They have projects where they walk Palestinian school kids to school to keep them from being shot, things like that. They do work in the Occupied Territories, but also South America, Mexico, and on US Indian Reservations. They seem to be amazing, and loving people.

I suggest you try both.

I like the unstructuredness of the Quaker meeting - and participating when I feel like it. But they can vary and some meetings are more liberal than others.

I would probably like the UU church more if it didn't remind me so much of "regular" churches. But they are all different and sometimes it is nice to go hear an inspiring speaker.

at least as far as their ( our) beliefs go. I , for example, am quite the agnostic, but in our small congregation we have UU Christians, UU Jews, UU Pagans and UU secular humanists and just about everything else one can think of. The denomination has a wonderful youth program in which my kids and which has helped them become the wonderful people that they are. Although there is a lot of lip service given to being diverse enough for anyone of any political stripe the great majority of UUs seem to lean quite a bit towards the Left. I get frustrated with the " church like" atmosphere at times myself, but sometimes , I enjoy it...especially around holidays ( and we celebrate a whole lot of 'em). On the whole it has been an incredibly positive experience for me and my family. I also went to a Quaker college and have gone to Quaker meeting which can also be wonderful.

http://www.uua.org/index.html


There ya go.....That should be a good place to start for anyone interested.

http://www.uua.org/index.html

This is a good place to start

In fact, I just got home from the 9:30 service.

Essentially, Quakers teach and practice a philosophy of non-violence and social justice.

I was raised Presbyterian and was fortunate to attend a Quaker high school in Moorestown, New Jersey. I was a troubled youth, and the kindness of the Quaker teachers had a profound impact on my life. I was a conscientious objector to the Vietnam War.

I began attending Sunday meeting at 15th Street about eight years ago when my wife became pregnant with our first child. We have since become full-fledged Quakers, or members of the American Society of Friends.

My eldest daughter, 7, attends Friends Seminary, a Quaker school at the site. We have applied for our four-year-old to attend kindergarten there next year, as well.

The Society of Friends is what is known as a genuine mystery religion, which distinguishes it from modern religious cults, although the Society was founded, by a guy named John Fox, only about 500 years ago.

It is interesting that the Society is considered to be a Christian church, although many members and attenders are NOT Christians per se. They do, however, generally believe in a God (or god), and that we can all have a personal relationship with the God within us, without the intercession of a clergyman, as in other Christian churches.

Here is a link to a web site operated by the 15th Street Meeting.

http://15stfriends.quaker.org

The "Faith and Practice" document referred to in one of the replies above, refers to a document produced by each meeting that outlines the basic tenets of the Quaker faith and its practice. Here is a basic guide to Faith and Practice published on-line by the New York Yearly Meeting (within NY State):

http://worship.quaker.org/qfp/fandpresults.asp?ymid=9

But, really, you don't have to read any of this stuff, you can just find a local meeting and see what's going on.

I'll be glad to answer any questions.

By the way, the American Friends Service Committee won a Nobel Prize in 1947 for their humanitarian activities.

Cheers, Tace

I suggest you go to a few local meetings, if possible. Some Quaker meetings are unprogrammed (like the one I go to), while others really resemble other protestant church services (hymns, sermons, etc). In fact, the fastest-growing form of Quakerism is the evangelical type. Political outlook (as far as a meeting can have a discernible political outlook) can vary a great deal, too:

http://www.fgcquaker.org/ (Unprogrammed meetings, mostly. More of a liberal, universalist orientation)

http://www.fum.org/ (More Christ-centric, meeting type varies)

http://www.evangelical-friends.org/ (Very Evangelical, mostly programmed meetings)

So go to a few different meetings, and see where you feel comfortable. In my experience, new people are welcomed at any Quaker meeting/church. There was a time when Friends separated themselves from others, but that's not true now.

Some books which have been interesting and helpful to me are:
The Quiet Rebels, by Margaret Hope Bacon, which looks at the history of Quakers in the U.S.
A Quaker Book of Wisdom by Robert Lawrence Smith, which is part memoir, part introduction to Quaker views.

Some recent Quaker mystics: Rufus Jones and Thomas Kelly.

Or you can just browse http://www.quakerbooks.org/

Wasn't there a point in Quakerism ( is that right? ) where there was a split between Friends Church and Friends Meeting? I seem to remember my Quaker ( meeting) college boyfriend telling me that. Is there still that schism?

This happened in the mid-19th century when Quaker theologian/lecturer Elias Hicks declared that the blood of Christ was no more useful for the cleansing of man's sins than "the blood of bulls and goats" - it was the "life of the soul of Jesus" that could accomplish that, as the actual Jesus, being divine, had no material blood, nor required it. This affirmation resulted in a split between the Orthodox Friends and the Hicksite Friends, roughly paralleled today by the Friends United Meeting and the Friends General Conference, respectively. But we still talk with each other. We still share a lot of common ground.

interesting stuff.....

I knew about the Hicksite/Guernseyite/Wilburite splits, but I didn't know how they matched up to the current FUM/FGC/Evangelical groups today. As you can probably tell, most of my Quaker experience is of the unprogrammed-FGC variety.

Fun fact: there are almost as many Quakers in Kenya(100,000+) as in all of North America (125,000)!

Not so fun fact: here's an article by a British evangelical group that looks critically at Quakerism. http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/othergrp/quakers.htm

In my experience, many people now in the Quaker community begin, or are, where you say you are now, Patsified.

Let me agree that going to going to a local Meeting or two or three will be what most persuades you one way or another.

Different Meetings vary widely, and a great deal depends on what part of the country you are in and are willing to consider. There's a true continuum from near-stereotypical evangelicals calling themselves a little bit Quaker to 'mixed' worship and then 'unprogrammed'/'silent worship' kinds, and a few that may be a bit dysfunctional and seem to be therapy groups. Their politics and theology vary. All have a reasonable claim on the tradition defined by Friends in the 1650s, all deviate from it in ways they consider justifiable.

I'm with a Meeting that is very large (~500 members) and worships in the traditional, 'unprogrammed'/'silent' fashion in a large, traditionally musty and aged, Meetinghouse. It's in a sub-city with several universities around it, and most of the people who attend are part of that milieu. So it's liberal, but living a Quaker life is thought to be the foundation for living in search and service of social justice rather than the other way around. There was a long argument in the Meeting about the role of Christ and the Bible, typical of Quaker life in this period of American history and Modernity, but the so-called Christocentric side has greatly diminished its vehemence over the past two or three years. We are finding some peace on the matter, but it has come at some cost in people going elsewhere after much arguing.

The heart of Quaker tradition is that revelation, which is particular moments of spiritual experience, is open to all people. The tradition is unabashedly mystical religion, but the Mystic Journey- despite its incredible Highs and insights- can be a terribly difficult one for the individual person and requires much care on the part of the group to help each and all along. The Dark Night Of The Soul is not just a nice fiction and phenomenon only the solitary kind of people who live in caves on islands off the Irish coast and eat only bird eggs experience. People are quick to fall back (or forwards) on books and beliefs they are sure of once the going gets rough, when their failure and impurity relative to the wonder they can at times touch can no longer resist being acknowledged.

The people who press for too literalist/traditional a Christian theology and ritualism in Quakerism tend to find that Paul and some Gospel passages deny any other way to proper experience of the spiritual than via Christological- ideological- framing thoughts and words. If a Christian, you will in time have to choose whether your trust in your own experience of the spiritual exceeds your trust in what such a text promises, exceeds the minimal guarantees of traditional Christianity. People who find little personal value to the Bible tend to become disorganized in their thoughts or commitments if they have no other strong source- e.g. text or person- to test their experience and thinking against, of which there are several. Personally, I find the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) a wonderful and precise guide/test. And, while I was born Christian, I do find ever more to that 'speaks to' my life and experience in the literature and tradition of Judaism and the spirituality of Jewish people every time a comparison or contrast arises.

Quaker practice and life seems to have no stated rules and the iconic bits are the Testimonies. But you may find that it's not so simple, and the pressure is not one of conforming to others but of selfconscious feeling that there's an asserted insight here you cannot bring yourself to share in. Some men have a lot of trouble with the Peace Testimony, many people have trouble with the Testimony to Simplicity. And to understand Quaker political action, it has a way of running internally on terms that seem so basic and simple and without a calculation about display or assertion of power that you worry early on at the seeming naivite of it- until you see how, in being so, its disproportionate effectiveness is created. And there is quite a bit of Quakerese- Quaker jargon- that takes some getting used to and requires some explanation.

It's certainly possible that you'll be more at home in a U-U congregation. There's no way for you to know what's best for you but to go out and visit and worship with each group that strikes you as possibly what you're looking for. I searched for quite some time myself. Know that there many good people out there, invisible in the barrens of public life, in every group that is careful and moderate and given to humility and the good.

The spiritual is out there, to be discovered in Nature. In time you'll find more of it in other people, in simple deeds done well. Buber thought the spiritual was part and parcel of the Zwischen, the Between between two spiritual beings. It is the most precious thing in the world to share.

as in an old childhood favorite, the George Fox Song...

"'There's a light that was shining when the world began,
It's the light that is shining in the heart of a man.
There's a light that is shining in the Turk and the Jew,
It's the light that is shining, friend, in me and in you.
Walk in the light, wherever you may be,
Walk in the light, wherever you may be.
In my old leather britches and my shaggy, shaggy locks,
I am walking in the glory of the light,' said Fox."

That's the chorus; the only verse fragment I can remember is,
"'Will you swear on the Bible?' 'I will not,' said he, 'for the Truth is more holy than the book to me.'"

out of Protestant dissatisfaction. Seems I could've veered off into the Quaker tradtion and found similar satisfaction. I've always been curious, but I'm leery of dogma and ritual...so, I step lightly.

I've never found any real conflict between the essence of Religions. Just stylistic differences.

Tibetan Buddhism has been helpful to me in the rigorous conceptual analysis of practical spiritual questions.

Taoism offers a beautiful model of balance and harmony.

Quaker studies might be next for me. Sounds interesting.

Good thread. Thanks.

Zen/Quaker similarities are discussed to a certain extent.

I use the term "Liberal Quakers" as it is described on Beliefnet.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/80/story_8038_1.html

I am in sync with the Quaker belief system as well. I went to a meeting once and may try again sometime soon.

Belief in Deity
Diverse beliefs, from belief in a personal God as an incorporeal spirit to questioning belief in a personal God.


• Incarnations
Beliefs vary from the literal to the symbolic belief in Jesus Christ as God's incarnation. Most believe we are all sons and daughters of God, with the main focus on experiencing and listening to God, the Light within, accessible to all.


• Origin of Universe and Life
Emphasis is placed on spiritual truths as revealed to each individual. Many believe that God created/controls all events/processes that modern scientists are uncovering about origins. Many believe in scientific accounts alone or don't profess to know.


• After Death
Few liberal Quakers believe in direct reward and punishment, heaven and hell, or second coming of Christ. The primary focus is nondogmatic: God is love, love is eternal, and our actions in life should reflect love for all of humanity.


• Why Evil?
Beliefs vary, as the focus is not on why, but how to eliminate wrongs, especially violence. Many believe that violence against another human is violence against God. Many Quakers believe that lack of awareness of God's divine Light within all may result in wrongdoing. Many believe that evil is simply an unfortunate part of human nature that we all must work to eliminate.


• Salvation
Beliefs are diverse, as dogma is de-emphasized. Most believe that all will be saved because God is good and forgiving, and the divine Light of God is available to all. Good works, especially social work and peace efforts, are viewed as integral to the salvation of humanity, regardless of belief or nonbelief in an afterlife.


• Undeserving Suffering
Liberal Quakers do not believe that Satan causes suffering. Some believe suffering is part of God's plan, will, or design, even if we don't immediately understand it. Some don't believe in any spiritual reasons for suffering. Quakers focus on reducing human suffering, especially that which is caused by social injustice or violence.


• Contemporary Issues
Views vary, some maintaining that abortion violates Quaker commitment to nonviolence, but some view the right to choose abortion as an aspect of equal rights for women and/or as a personal matter between the woman and God. The American Friends Service Committee (an independent Quaker organization with participants of many faiths, which provides international programs for economic and social justice, peace, humanitarian aid) supports the woman’s right to choose abortion according to her own conscience.

is the place to find FGC unprogrammed meetings in your area.

The old divisions between Quakers still exist, but now it seems the meetings are dividing themselves over Christocentric and universalist Quakers. Some meetings are heavily Christocentric, and hardly distinguishable from other versions of Christianity. Other meetings seem to be deliberately avoiding "traditional" Christianity. Over half the meetings worldwide are pastoral "programmed" meetings.

Early Quakers-- Fox, Naylor, etc, rejected creeds and dogma for a direct experience with God, but later on creeds and dogma started to creep in. A hundred years or so ago the Richmond Declaration was signed on to by many Quaker meetings as a statement of belief, although they didn't really want to call it a creed. FUM meetings tend to lean that way, although not all of them, and Evangelical meetings definitely lean tha way.

It's not all that easy to find out about Quakers. Vast amounts have been written by and about us, but since we still have this general distrust of creeds, it's difficult to get to the meat of just what binds us together by just reading the journals and books. Often, it seems that nothing binds us together. Every meeting is completely independant, and even within meetings there is often little agreement on theology. The actual experience of being a Quaker and attending meetings is often far different from what one may read.

My own experience, as a member of Plainfield meeting in New Jersey is that I am a member of a spiritual community and the silent worship is strengthening, albeit hard work. No one tells me what to believe, so I have to figure that part out for myself, but we sit in silent common thought and prayer and the meeting becomes far more than its simple parts. After worship, at the potlucks and coffee hours, the conversation is more often about politics than theology, but there is an overwhelming feeling of peace in the room. Not the peace that is the simple absence of conflict, but the peace that comes from knowing who, what, and where you are. And that peace carries itself thoughout your life away from the meetinghouse.

There are a number of links for inquirers at our website-- http://www.plainfieldquakers.org/

Drop into the meetings in your area and meet the people. Some may be having an Open House. Each meeting will be different, and you might find one that's a good fit.

I ran across this story. It's an interesting look at past Quakers, and in a lot of ways it parallels what's happening now.

http://www.kimopress.com/candles.html

"In Philadelphia,'' she went on, hefting the rolling pin for emphasis, "there were dozens of pitiful beggars, one-legged and one-eyed, left over from their glorious revolution, twenty- five years later. Saw 'em with my own eyes, y'know. No need for it, I say. War is a sin, I say. And not just I, but the blessed--''

The bell over the door had tinkled just then, and Mrs. Lamb entered, seeking some bread. Gran had stopped in midsentence at its jingle. This was Quaker talk, and not for customers' ears, especially not this year. "