Jews, Mormons to Meet Over [Posthumous] Baptisms

Jewish leaders claim Mormons continue to posthumously baptize Jews and Holocaust victims, and will confront church leaders with a decade of frustration over what they call broken promises. ``We have proof, and we are bringing that,'' said Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors.

The Mormon church has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in for the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for the dead to reach heaven. The church believes individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave.

Michel plans to show posthumous baptism records to church officials in meetings Sunday and Monday. He says the records prove tens of thousands of Jews, including some who died in Nazi concentration camps, were posthumously baptized over the past 10 years and as recently as last month.

A 1995 agreement signed by Jewish leaders and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints called for an immediate halt to unwanted proxy baptisms. After evidence was found in the church's massive International Genealogical Index that the baptisms for many Jews -- including Anne Frank -- continued, the two faiths reaffirmed the agreement in 2002. Jewish leaders in New York have bitterly complained the baptisms never stopped, and last year asked Democratic Sen. Hillary Clinton to intervene. She met with Sen. Orrin Hatch, an Utah Republican and active Mormon, though neither side would discuss what was said. NY Times

Does anyone besides me think this is incrfedibly fucked up? Or is it just because I'm a Jew? I could just spit right now.

That stinks. I am so tird of religion operating under cover. And the whole proxy baptism thing stinks too.

Batshit INSANE!

the last damn place I want to go to is that boring christian version of heaven.

I have worked hard my whole life so that I wouldn't have to go swing around the clouds carrying a harp in a big old holy diaper and sing praises all day long bored shitless for the rest of eternity. I am going to hell dammit and you can't make me go to heaven!

:evilgrin:

sorry to be insensitive, but do you REALLY think a ritual like this is going to affect anything at all? Do you honestly believe your soul is going to posthumously be hijacked?

The whole thing is absurd all the way around.

opinion, too, except that I don't plan on going to Hell. You have fun, though.

I'm not a Mormon, but I've got no objection to them doing whatever it is that they think God commands. What I don't understand is the Jewish position.

I don't care if somebody baptizes me into the Mormon church when I'm gone. I don't care if they baptize my great-grandfather. It doesn't affect my beliefs or life, not theirs.

Hey, even if the Mormons are right, the dead you can always reject the proposed salvation. In any event, as long as they aren't dragging living Jews, or corpses, out to the baptismal fount, why worry about it??

I would actually appreciate some feedback from some Jewish people who are upset about this telling me why. How, in this world, does this really affect you?

Let's say I am a Satanist. And, I decide I am going to 'baptize' your relatives remains to the Dark Lord. Would that be a problem?

You ask what the problem is? After a life of being a Jew, someone comes along and decides that your religion is "wrong" and "corrects" it. That is disgusting! It is also disrespectful! People died because they WERE Jews and now someone is going to come along and "murder" them again! If the person died a Jew, they are a Jew, do not try to convert someone who cannot refuse said conversion.

they have their own very bizarre and idiosyncratic view of the afterlife, which says you become as a god and get your very own planet to rule and populate. It's all quite strange, and bears a striking similarity to some of the beliefs of Scientologists (L. Ron Hubbard was probably inspired by his fellow charlatan Joseph Smith).

He's a proven liar and conniver. No conscience and I wonder if he has a soul left. Active mormon my ass.

eom

as a "christian" i find this really offensive to baptize the dead. in my way of thinking,mormons are just no step above the cult of l ron hubbard

not just because you are a Jew -- it is seriously fucked up. How bloody arrogant of the Mormons to undertake such a disgusting intrusion on religious freedom. :mad:

Makes me want to go find some Mormon graves and baptise them into the Church of Elvis.

Not that I believe in all that crap, but I don't want to give anyone the satisfaction of "converting" me after I'm dead.

If my great-great grandson converts to Mormonism, I don't want him bringing me along for the ride.

I wonder if the provision is legally binding.

In any case, it's already part of my Last Will and Testament.

rididculous, too. But how, exactly, does it intrude on religious freedom? If the Jews just ignore it, it's not going to change anybody's religion.

surely you could fill in the blanks.

If some nice Pagans were to start performing 'indoctrination' ceremonies for dead LDS church members, perhaps THAT would get their attention. If you could get one or two little papers (even college newspapers) to write it up, then forward the articles to freerepublic and Limbaugh - you *know* they'd start shrieking to high heaven. Then the more mainstream media would pick it up.

Surely there would be outrage in conservative circles. A few days later, people would start realizing that the 'victims' were actually from a church that did the exact same thing. Maybe a few of the outraged would notice how their reaction was different when the shoe turned out to be on the other foot all along.

'Goose

I think I should posthumously baptize Brigham Young and Pope John Paul II into my own church.

I will declare them posthumous converts to The Church of IanDB1.

Also, can I excommunicate someone even if they're not a member of my church?

For example, can I excommunicate Jerry Falwell? Do I have to baptize him in absentia into my church first before I can excommunicate him?

Or can I only do that to dead people? For example, can I posthumously baptize Pope John Paul II into The Church of IanDB1 and then excommunicate him the next week?

Cross-posted in a new thread:

I'm a minister of The Universal Life Church- Can I convert Brigham Young?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=226x1601

You don't have to eye-for-an-eye it by counter-baptizing actual Mormons. Let them have what they wanted.

What I fantasize about is cooking up a nice, tasteful ritual whereby people could free the souls of their non-Mormon ancestors from posthumous bondage and allow them to find their own paths through the other world. Something on the shamanistic side, probably . . . it could be lots of fun.

could the ceremony have drugs and lots of nude dancing?

Please?

We must respect our elders, you know.

(Of course, if you think they wouldn't, you could always decide to leave them in the clutches of the Mormons.)

Anyone else is welcome to practice what they believe. The church will not change this doctrine and practice. If a group were to practice initiation rituals into paganism, they are welcome to go for it. I think most members would agree with me that if that group were the truth, I would thank them for their efforts in sharing.

Any serious reading of their beliefs conjures up the word CULT - in big bold capitol letters, of course!

Excerpt from Wikipedia

{emphasis added}

I went once to the Hill Comorah Pageant in Palmyra, NY and got the full dose of their mythology. This pageant is a spectacular show and very entertaining, but it was pretty weird.

The "ancient prophets who lived in the Americas" were supposedly descendants from one of the lost tribes of Israel and came to the Americas where they were visited by the reincarnated Jesus after his crucifixion. I guess the lost tribe thing provides the link in someone's mind that justifies the baptism of Jews.

Hmmm..

Anyway, I'm not sure what you bolded Americas and Urim and Thummim. I don't know what the first proves to you, and the last are mentioned in the Old Testament. There is no group whose beliefs can't be slandered with the right phrases and quotation marks. Why you choose to label this one CULT is beyond me.

did a faux baptism on Jesus. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Mormon church considered non-christian for a long time. Didn't they believe that Jesus was just a prophet? Jehovah's Witness also?

Jesus has never been just a prophet in church teachings.

In a very, very morbid way. First let me say that I have the utmost respect for all the victims of the nazis.

That said, and as a non-believer, I think the whole situation is just a vivid example of why religions are fucked up.. This is pretty ridiculous and as such is sickly funny. On the one hand you have the mormons trying to impose their beliefs on people that have no choice (if we can call them people, it would be better call them memories). That speaks volumes about the LDS and is a nice demonstration of their total devotion to authority.

On the other you have the jews. What are they afraid of? Just having their religious identity hijacked after death? Considering the structure of judaism and is clear racial undertones I seriously doubt it. Are they afraid that their usual trump card is going to be taken away by these conversions?

Finally, I would like to say that this fight provides us with a nice case study in freedom of religion. I do think that the mormors, however sick they are, have all the right in the world to express their beliefs.

Cheers..

I too think this is ridiculous - on so many levels.

But then, most religious dogma is ridiculous from the outside looking in.

"trying to impose their beliefs on people that have no choice"

The baptisms are offered, but the spirit themselves must accept them for them to be valid for the individual. Or so the doctrine goes. It is still the decision of the spirit and no one else. Only the opportunity is being offered.

I think I could show that your logic is wrong (i.e. my assertion is correct). But I think it doesn't matter too much.

As I said, I'm an atheist. Therefore, I don't accept the existence of "spirits" and the whole discussion is kind of irrelevant.

Anyway, your comment takes this to a whole new level of ridiculousness.

Cheers.

If this whole practice weren't so disrespectful towards a religious group that has endured TRUE persecution for thousands of years, I would laugh it off completely.

That being said, this just perfectly sums up the wackiness that is religion.

It is my understanding that the baptism is not a forced conversion but only an oppurtunity for conversion. The soul of the dead person can choose to become Mormon once someone else is baptized for him or her. I knew a couple of Mormons who regularly were baptized for dead people.
Personally, I think that if we do have to be of a certain religion to go to heaven and we would have a chance to convert after death that it wouldn't matter what the living were doing. If the Mormons do really believe this though, wouldn't it be more equitable to do the ceremony for everyone? If we can convert after death anyway, why do they spend so much time and effort on missionaries? Personally I don't agree with their religion, but I am just wondering this.

I mean, I think the Mormon position is ludicrous to the point of laughing when I think about it. But, seriously, if they vicariously baptized my grandfather (who I'm fairly sure wasn't LDS) and didn't tell me, I doubt I'd know. And I don't think he'd care, even if they actually retrieved his embalmed remains and dunked them in water. (I didn't know either grandfather, so I'm not sure I'd care even if they did retrieve his remains.)

Does it have to do somehow with the historical record, somebody not wanting his dear uncle Ezra Eisenburg listed in some genealogical database as having been Mormon when he was strictly observant Orthodox?

that these people were persecuted and put to death because of their religion, which was obviously NOT Mormonism. And because it's simply disrespectful to alter the record, to say nothing of its perverted ahistoricity. And because it's done secretly and they have lied about stopping the practice. And because, even though I'm not a particularly observant Jew, I think a person's religious decisions should not be fucked with by radicals after they die. The Mormons spend lots of time trying to proselytize--Jews reject this practice; if they didn't get to us when we were alive, leave us alone when we're dead. Thanks.

I just don't see how a religious decision can possibly be altered post mortem, LDS theology aside, and muddling the historical documentation is about the only practical consequence I can coming from the vicarious baptism business.

The other points are noted. Thanks.

I dabble in my family's genealogy. And I refuse to give the Mormons any information. Thank goodness that most of my stuff is located at the New England Historic Genealogical Society (the second largest database).

One thing from which they base their belief in Proxy Baptism is what St. Paul said in First Corinthians 15:29. All other churches interpret this passage as an aside by Paul that actually condemns the practice.

Leave it to the Mormons to come up with their own weird ideas. I have never met an LDS member who I didn't like, but their religion is too far from the mainstream and logic for me to like.

Check it all out at Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead

"I refuse to give the Mormons any information"

Only information submitted for temple work is used. If you are talking about the opportunity to share work through family tree projects and such, that infomation will not be used to temple work. But it does offer you the opportunity to hook up with others doing genealogical work on your same lines. It can be a great help.

I am LDS. I have done proxy baptisms for the dead before. The information on who is done comes from members. Members are to submit information only for their direct ancestors. The reason the whole process is done is that our church believes baptism is a necessary ordinance and must be done for all. Those who lived without the chance to hear the gospel of Christ, or the restored message of the LDS church are given the chance by proxy. The baptism does not convert anyone. It is only offered and the spirit still has the choice of whether or not to accept it. This is done due to the believe that those who haven't heard the restored gospel are given a chance in the spirit world. This is alluded to in scripture in 1 Peter.

1 Peter 3:19-20 (King James Version)

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

and also

1 Peter 4:6 (King James Version)

6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

This is done with the best of intentions, not to offend anyone. We are charged to share the gospel with all, and in our way of beliefs to share the chance with baptisms for the dead as well. Those spirits will be taught and offered the chance as well to believe. Members are instructed to submit information only for direct ancestors. Well meaning individuals have submitted information for famous people, or groups of people such as those who perished in wars. It is not only Jews, so please don't think this is anything about that group of people alone. Whether you agree with the beliefs or the practice or not, they do have the right to believe as the wish and practice their faith.

there is evidence this is being done even though the church had agreed to stop doing it matters at all--if you read the article, it is perfectly clear that we have evidence of this happening as recently as one month ago? How about he fact that it fucks up truthful genealogical efforts by incorrectly asserting that Jews were Mormons?

I don't really care what the "intentions" are. You might find a few Jews who support this outrageous behavior, but not many. Maybe you can concern yourself less with intentions and more with the feelings of living, breathing Jews.

"How about he fact that it fucks up truthful genealogical efforts by incorrectly asserting that Jews were Mormons?"

The genealogical records will list the ordinances were done if you look for it, but never implies acceptance. You are reading into the process your own interpretations of what it means, which does not correspond with church doctrine.

Also, the church can only do so much. The members are the ones submitted information. There is no way to flag ever Jewish person who ever lived to insure no ordinances are ever done. Also too, if they are ancestors of current members, they do have the option to do the work. Members have been counseled on proper etiquette for temple work. I follow it, as do the overwhelming majority. Don't single yourself out for victim hood.

I do find it interesting that the only group who feels their religions trumps another are the Jews. I can understand someone not happy about the work being done for their ancestor. But I know of no other group who seems to feel it is their RIGHT to have all work for their members prohibited.

...blame the Jews for being too sensitive--"the only group that <sic> feels their <sic> religions <sic> trumps another are <sic> the Jews." In fact, I know of no other group that feels it should do baptisms on dead Jews, that seems to ignore agreements it has made with Jews, and is so insensitive to the concerns of Jews that it pretends the problem is with Jews and not with the practice itself. Never mind that any Jew who wanted to be baptized could have done so while he or she lived; that he or she didn't do it is, or should be, instructive, indeed. This is being done against the wishes of Jews, many of whom died because they lived honest to goodness real Jewish lives in ghettos with other Jews.

As someone at the Simon Wiesental Center said, anti-Semites who desecrate Jewish cemeteries want to destroy even the memory of Jews by breaking their tombstones and other symbols whereby we honor and remember them. He concluded that baptism of the Jewish dead is just a more sophisticated form of breaking tombstones.

Thank you for the corrections. I hope it made you feel as important and intellectual as you seem to desire. I do not devote myself to this site full time. I respond when I can as I do other things. Errors are inevitable.

Again, the question is, why special rights for Jews? They alone are not singled out for this practice. No other group complains so much about this, or complains at all. Also, Jews are not the only religious group to suffer persecution. They do seem to be the ones who focus the most on it.


Also I will repeat the church is not the one doing it. Members submit information. The blame lies with them, not the church. I will guide you though the process step by step. A member searches for records to submit. We have been instructed to submit only information for our direct ancestors, and can also include their brothers and sisters and their wives. After the information is collected, it is submitted by disk to a temple. They convert it to whatever files they need and pass out a name for ordinance work when someone comes to the temple. The temple checks to see if the work has been previously done. I know of no way for them to know of the name of every Jewish person to ever live to kick them out of the system. If you do, perhaps you should let them know. But again, even if they are Jewish, if they are direct ancestors of current members they are not prohibited from being submitted. The fault lies with the members, not the church. Some just do not know the rules which are to be followed. As I said before, those members are probably doing it with good intentions and are unaware of the rules for submission. As for your comparison, I don't see any possible way breaking tombstones could be done with good intentions.

You wrote any Jew who wanted to could have been baptized. I believe that is untrue. The gospel from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has not been presented to every person who ever lived. Because of this, baptism for the dead is practiced.

I never said the problem lies with the Jews. I only said they are the only ones who complain and wish to be treated differently than others.

to suffer persecution. They do seem to be the ones who focus the most on it."

I think that says it all right there. No need to go on.

I seem to remember a time when you were "tombstoned" at your request because you felt that you were (or that religious people in general) were being "persecuted" at DU.

You stated: "Again, the question is, why special rights for Jews? They alone are not singled out for this practice." Does it matter that we are not the only ones singled out? Do we not have the right to ask for the practice to stop as it pertains to our religion? It is irrelevant that others have not asked for the practice to stop. If others wish it to stop, then they should ask. As I understand it, Jews are not asking for the practice to stop for all groups, just ours. Again, should we not be allowed to ask for a cessation to something we find offensive because others do not find it so?

"Also, Jews are not the only religious group to suffer persecution. They do seem to be the ones who focus the most on it." Have you read your statement? Do you know the history of the Jews? I doubt you will ever see a Jew say that our religion is the only religion to suffer persecution! But, you cannot deny (well, perhaps you can), that Jews have been, and continue to be, the scapegoat for many social ills. And, if you want to talk about a 'persecution complex" let's talk about Christians!!! Especially ones in this country! They have all of the power, yet they are the "downtrodden!" They don't even know what real persecution is, yet they think they are the ones who are persecuted! Have some of the American 'persecuted' Christians talk to their brothers and sisters in the Arab countries, or China, or North Korea; maybe then they will see how fucking good they have it!

You say; "I never said the problem lies with the Jews. I only said they are the only ones who complain and wish to be treated differently than others." They why doesn't the Mormon Church RESPECT the wishes of the Jewish community?! Mormons don't have it very easy in this country either, I would think they could appreciate the position Jews are in! However, it comes down to "Christian privilege" again...they will do what ever they want, and to Hell with the wishes of others because it is done with "good intentions!" The road to Hell is paved with "good intentions!"

I always thought it was "do unto others as you would have done unto yourself." Would the Mormon Church like their ancestors converted to Judaism after death, meaning that Christ is not the savior to man? Perhaps I misunderstood it and it really means, "do unto others as you want."

Some Mormons are trolling genealogical sites and are baptising individuals from posted family trees. This is done without permission or knowledge of the genealogist. I know, because it happened to me. I went online to check to see if anyone had added more information on my family, and came across a tree where all my family had been "sealed".....and, hold onto your hats, campers....this included people who are still ALIVE!

I wrote to the person who posted the tree, and have never gotten a reply. Letters of protest to rootsweb.com got nothing ("we aren't responsible for what's posted here"), and letters to the LDS church were also nothing ("We don't know anything about this, but we don't condone baptizing living people against their will").