A quick note to Christian friends here at DU

I am not a Christian. As such, I have endured 50+ years of spontaneous proselytizing at the hands of a wide variety of the self-elected.

Apparently, my very soul is filthy. And joining your religion is what is needed immediately. Oh, and by the way, I must be careful not to join any of those other, bad versions of Christianity. Just the one that the current evangelizer means for me to join.

And this salesmanship can be done any time, any place and for any length of time. If I give a Christian a lift to the airport I have apparently given permission to have my very personhood condemned along the way. If at home, I've agreed to stop what I am doing to answer the door and patiently listen as to how I must be eternally tortured. I'm that bad. But a full course of lectures (and accompanying donations) at Church of the Strip-Mall will fix me right up.

All this on a man who believes in God - and prays! Quietly, privately.

My point: Dear Christians, you are blessed with such complete and total access to those of us who don't belong to your Church (or church). You enjoy such freedom to politely condemn all the rest of us to damnation.

If, while enjoying DU, you come across some of us who simply have nothing to do with your religion - and as such feel free to not acknowledge the implicit agreement outlined above, don't add yet one more scolding on us - the accusation we are "bashing" you.

We may simply feel that we don't have to listen without answering. We may feel that DU is a place where ALL ideas are debated. We just may talk back. Some of us may even be smart-alecky.

And I bet that not once while reading DU, will your entire Being be condemned.

:applause:

n/t

ah heck, just ask Nancy Reagan....she'll consult the stars.

But maybe I'm just projecting.

good post.
K&R

:kick:

....and Christians!

I belong to a liberal church in a liberal denomination. My cousin is a fundie and has told me she worries my husband, daughter and I are headed straight to hell because we are not true Christians. Our greatest sins are not pushing religion down peoples throats (we have many friends of different faiths and some are atheists), we understand the separation of church and state, we are for equal marriage for all and a woman's right to choose. Believe me, liberal Christians get just as frustrated as you do. How anyone can be so judgmental and claim they are a Christian is beyond me.

because evangelist christians are usually polite.
That's been my experience.
YMMV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7wOz5a6yns


:evilgrin:

We know the intolerant Christians on this board hate atheists for refusing to give their own set of beliefs lip service.

However, the ad hominems are getting rather thick and aren't doing the people who sling them any good at all.

Using such a meaningless term in an attempt to demean a whole group of people says much more about the poster than it does about the group s/he is attacking.

to tell me not to believe in gawd.
i have never been hit up while walking into the grocery store by someone telling me i should not believe in gawd.
i've never noticed crowds of book toting atheists swarming through my apartment complex to spread the word of atheism.

proselytizing evangelicals may seem polite, but i find their intrusions rude and disrespectful. i believe what i believe. i don't tell you what to believe, don't try and tell me what to believe.

I've been in some wacky neighborhoods. ;P

I've had all these - and I'm only 28.

so yes, the rural South.

Not only did no one ever knock on my door, but many of my friends were atheists.

You've encountered groups of atheists pressing atheist literature (is there any such thing anyway?) into your hands as you try to walk into stores? You've had strangers come up to you and invite you to their atheist church (are there such things) and when you tell them that you're not interested, they've persisted and told you that you'll go to hell if you don't listen?

In the south? Where? I've lived in the south since 1978 and I have never once had an atheist approach me - not once! Where do you live? Please share your experiences!

That was my point. I HAVE had theists knock on my door. Many, many times.

Or something. Sounds like we agree!

theists suck.

:hi:

I took their literature as it was shoved in my hand. I think I said 'Huh, um thanks'. The same response I have to fundamentalists who shove stuff at me. They looked anxious to talk about it too - same as fundamentalists.

I think I object to the behavior as the OP states - not their beliefs. I just don't understand why people think pushing their beliefs UNASKED upon perfect strangers is going to convert anyone to any belief system. Control freaks on both sides of the issue, imo.

since I asked them to wait while I get my gun.

i liked the one upthread as well, saying, oh is that what you're about? i thought you wanted to get laid.

I find it disrespectful of my belief, what ever it may be, to come to my door and try to convert me to their religion. I will not tolerate it just like I will not tolerate telephone solicitors calling me. I have or will make up my own mind and don't need someone selling anything to me including religion. I should also be able to walk down a public street without being called names (sinner, heathen, devil worshiper, etc) for wearing a Gratefully Dead t-shirt or being unwilling to listen to someone else's religious doctrines.

polite than Christians. Looks like you are pushing the myth, "Christian good, non-Christian bad."

Is there a polite and tactful way for them to express that?

thanks - a new one for my collection :)

never heard that one before, nor experienced one either.... but I have heard the Right WIng and extreme religious say that atheism is a "belief" equivalent to a religion, so as to marginalize atheists and their arguments.

Evangelist christians by definition but into people's business. There is nothing polite about that.

Are you an Evangelist?

Our lack of belief in gods is not a belief system, and thus can't be pushed on anyone.

The only place an "evangelist atheist" could possibly exist is inside a delusional mind.

is limited to non-Christians, think again. Everyone has to put up with it. I find a good way to put a stop to it is to say: "Oh, is that what you are up to? I was hoping you wanted to get laid."

...I wanted to point up the implicit "agreement" that says that all the rest of us must blush and turn demurely away when presented with a Christian's thoughts.

The comment I am periodically piqued at is the one about "no respect" for people's religion here at DU.
Well..... some of us may sound like we have no respect for someone-or-other's religion. This may be because we don't!

Not being a part of said religion means just that. Not a part. So Christians (Muslims, Hindus, Whatever) occupy no more psychic space in my brain than Yankees fans or Wedgewood collectors. This can lead to flippancy.

I just want folks to hang in here at DU anyway.

I am required to respect a person's right to subscribe to the religion of his/her choice.

I am *not* required to respect the religion itself.

By that I mean, we must give them a pass and not question their belief system. No other beliefs (political or economic, say) are treated the same way.

Works with the Avon Lady, too.

I politely invited them in, maybe it's because I'm so BUFF...




(Big Ugly Fat Fucker)

-Hoot

Back when I was a Christian, I was still relentlessly pursued by other Christians intent on showing me the error of my ways in belonging to the "wrong" church and not immediately joining theirs, which according to them was the only ticket to heaven.

On the whole, I'm bothered less by any of them now that I can truthfully say that I'm pagan. Mentioning that I'm a lesbian is very effective in making them go away, too. Snort.

So-called "Christians" please replace my Tibetan prayer flags that you tore down when you stuffed the literature telling me how much Jesus loves me under my door? Like I'm really, really going to want to join your church now <--- insert "sarcasm" smiley.

Honestly, I've known some decent, humane and reasonable Christians - a lot of them in fact. But the self-righteous jerks who trample on other people's beliefs need to clean up their act.

My world contains a large contingent of fab Christians, too.

I've learned to love them as people. And to be honest, although I am not really matched up with a lot of their doctrine they really aren't in-your-face about it with me, so I lucked out. (Basically, the Pastor is a former public school teacher, so he's not too pushy. Firm in his beliefs, yes, but careful about not sounding too preachy about them when talking to me, a known liberal. LOL)

Especially on marquees as I'm driving down the street....

"One of the interesting ones I used to see was "Turn or BURN!" It gave me the warm-fuzzies."
http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1121437327.htm

.....and not once have I commented on the hate speech from those of you who are not.

Furthermore, the hatred you have posted is offensive and no better than any other hate speech about any other group.

I did not know that.

Unlike other groups who are on the receiving end of REAL hate speech.

Criticism of your beliefs it not hate speech. Sometimes it can get too personal, and that's rude, but it's not hate speech.

you know that's not entirely true.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3343169

Please note, without any discussion of the issues presented in the subject LTTE, the author of said LTTE is dismissed mockingly as an idiot in two of the first three responses to the OP.

Is this perhaps "love" speech?

You religion condemns mine

case closed, as far as I'm concerned

Many Christian churches in my town have been marrying gay couples for years: unfortunately the State doesn't allow this to be "legal". And there are lots of Christians who take the injunction to love their neighbors without regard to race, creed or sexual orientation. A small church where a (non-religious) group I belong to meets has books from virtually every religious tradition you can imagine on its library shelves...and the ministers are a lesbian couple.

They're well aware that the women who meet there come from many different spiritual paths - and none. They have never tried to force their religious views on any of us - they just give us coffee and homemade cookies, and tell us the rent on their library is whatever we want to pay whenever we happen to have it. Of course we pay on time (and stuff a little extra in the collection box for the coffee and cookies) because they're just so damned nice.

So don't lump all Christians with the loud-mouthed fundies. There are jerks in every religion: unfortunately, they're the most visible ones.

Go whine somewhere else.

which means nothing to me.

The OP didn't express anything close to hate for Christians. He posted that he's annoyed by the idea that nobody is allowed to say anything less than worshipful about Christians or we're called haters, while Christians get a free pass wandering around telling me and others like me that we're damned to hell.

It gets annoying, that's all. I don't hate Christians. I try not to hate anyone. In fact, I try to live by Jesus's words. It's not easy loving my enemy but I practice every day by trying not to hate Dick Cheney. Difficult.

edit - spelling.

"Kill all fags" is hate speech.

"I don't like proselityzing Christians" is not hate speech.

Could somebody please inform the door knockers from the Church of Christ, the Mormon bike patrol, the JWs, the Jesus Loves You guy at the BART station, the sweet neighbor lady who keeps inviting me to church, the weirdo who screamed at me at the light rail station for not taking a Chick tract, and all the other proselytizers that I've already read the bible, I just don't think it's true, and I'd rather not be bothered about it again?

Forget the Do Not Call list, we need a Do Not Preach list.

"Have I told you about God's Plan for..."

"Sorry, on the list."

"Oh, gotta be careful about that- there's a big fine. Have a good day anyhow!"

That would be a beautiful list to be on!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x171617

but, then again, maybe not.

Believe me, we- the ones who never proselytize- get condemned by the same people you do. And we are every bit as hopeless and lost as an atheist, probably even worse- because we've seen the truth and corrupted it.

My section of hell is even hotter than yours.

"the word". . doomed, I tells ya. . doo-o-o-oomd

You can't criticize religion on DU, didn't you hear?

K&R

:kick:

You can also criticize atheism on DU.
But most of us aren't that interested in either one,
we come here to discuss politics, not religion,
and the discussions of religion become filled with trolls and flames,
so the best thing to do is to put those discussions in the RT forum.
I just wish we could hide the RT forum from the Latest Threads page,
as is done with the 911 and GDP forums.

... will contribute to that DU member's view of the Latest Threads page?

Sadly, the word "christian" has been hijacked by the right-wing fundies,
and those of us who attempt to follow 'the way' grieve that you and others
have been offended by their diatribes.

All who may call themselves 'christian,' are not..

All who follow the teachings of the rabbi named Jesus...
Are NOT out to save your soul with the answer they claim they know.

We are NOT all anti-gay, anti-choice, anti-immigrant, or anti-intellectual.

Nor do all of us go 'door-to-door' annoying the hell out of our neighbors in attempts to win
points with a god who apparently keeps score. (which makes no sense to me)

Many of us may know and read the Bible, but we don't take every word as literal truth,
nor do we wish to cram it down the throats of anyone nearby.

Many of us have the same doubts, fears, and worries that you might have.

All of us aren't seeking to tell you that you are wrong, that you are a sinner,
that you will burn in hell, or that we have the quick answer to eternal peace and salvation.
Because there are times we know that there are no quick answers.

LIke you, here at the progressive DU, I have been vilified, condemned, harrassed, harangued and
blasted, by fundies and those who consider me that way. But that is no way to live.

I am not a fundie; I do not wish to make you over in my image. I just hope that all of us here at DU can live in a community of progressive thought, respecting one another, wishing one another well, and having civil conversation on a variety of topics.

Why is that? They are never condemned nor ostracized as they should be. The ones that DO want to cram religion down the throats are always on TV; they have captured the Republican Party. They are forever knocking at people's doors uninvited. No one ever seems to do anything about. They have infiltrated all religions, the way that Blue Dog "Democrats" have infiltrates the Democratic Party, even though they are really Republicans. There is such a thing as too big a tent, in politics and in religion.

we'd be no better than them.

And frankly, the narrow fundies don't want to be with me. They know that I'll burn in hell
because I'm a liberal. It's not that I 'allow' them... if they wanna be with me, that's fine, coz I hope that some of my liberality will rub off on them. But they go find other groups that suit them.

As a liberal christian, 'condeming' is not my game, but theirs. I'd rather speak truth to love,
and hope they see the light.

Because of the fundies 'us-versus-them' mentality, because they are bigoted and narrow minded,
they attract more of the same, and have lots of cash to parade their 'superiority' around.

The christians who don't pander to small mindedness, would rather help others with their
resources, and as believers in freedom, to allow them to do their thing.. because we do
have freedom of religion in this country.

If we start limiting others, then we aren't as progressive as we claim to be.

consnider US Christian...

and we have no control over the ones that do. It's sort of like asking the Democrats to control the Greens.

:)

I don't try to "fix" Christians either.

My objection is a little more pointed (and directed at the experience here at DU) than just feeling over-proselytized.

My objection is the line of "reasoning" that someone has been bashed because others don't have "respect" for Christianity. This complaint comes up over and over. And so often when I review the alleged "bashing", it consists of A) not an automatic enough show of deference or B) a goofy wise-crack.

Nevermind who actually takes part in proselytizing - or who doesn't. I just wish to point out that as adherents to the most in-yer-face religion possible, Christians have a lot of nerve demanding that those of us on the receiving end of the proselytizing also remain silent about it all or have only certain proscribed reactions.

I feel free to have all kinds of reactions. And I feel free to post them here at DU. No "hands-off" zones. And I would like Christians of all types to learn to take their lumps like the rest of us.

...and stay at DU.

all alike.

That is common on DU, and is doing NOTHING to unify us, or to work on the REAL goals of democracy.

I hope you will think deeply about the prejudice that you are also promoting.

I don't think Christians are all alike. But you do all adhere to a religion that has proselytizing as a central tenet. I just wish to do away with a cultural assumption. See post #61.

To me, a step toward unity would be to eliminate any special "hands-off" privileges enjoyed by any single group - even if they are widely-accepted societal assumptions.

I guess some people find that fun and exciting.

One thing I will say to you, though I doubt you will be willing to actually hear it and think about it.

I DON'T see Christians on DU bashing those who say they have no faith. I DO SEE PLENTY OF ALL OF YOU WHO PROCLAIM NO FAITH TO BASH CHRISTIANS. SOMETIMES EVEN WISHING US DEATH. Consider that.

Have your last word.

As a Christian, I DO believe in peace.

Bye now...

And, of course, that would be monstrous for any DU'er to do to any other for any reason.

You had to add modifiers - you couldn't just say "those who have no faith".

People like you always do this shit - ignoring the FACT that we DON'T have a belief system.

call themselves "agnostics" and "atheists".

I see PLENTY of attacks the other way around.

Keep being divisive... it adds so much to DU and to life in general.

And, I'll say the same thing to you... I'm sure you want the last word, so have at it. It's part of the game.

Bye now.

NT!

I usually don't care what faith, or "no faith" people have (It's also interesting to describe a non-believer, you're left with negatives much of the time---I'm agnostic, leaning toward atheism)

I don't care if someone wants to save my mythical soul or merely wants to express finding comfort in their faith. Since I don't believe in hell, going there won't be a issue.

I really don't care. I don't feel the need to attack, draw out, or engage in debate about the existence of "God" with people of faith or religion

Unless, of course, faith or religion is used in a destructive manner, such as "condemning" gays. Ugh. (I read Leviticus or Corinthians and try to figure that out, I simply don't get it) Or attempts to destroy children's minds with pseudoscience. Those are vicious attacks on human beings and human minds, and I fell compelled to respond in cases like those.

I read old philosophy for the "God" arguments, those old dudes cover most of the bases and leave me uninspired, religious wise. (Logic is good though-- wish I understood the math better)

I understand what you're saying I suppose, it is a weird feeling to know that there are people who will regretfully, or happily, consign me to a "eternal life" of torment and misery. Eternal. That's fucked up.

I haven't met too many people of faith like that here on DU.

There are a few, sure, but the vast majority of us here are pretty liberal and try to let most commentary on our faith slide. I'll admit it, sometimes the snark against my faith gets to me, but most of the time, I see it as evidence that this is a safe place for those of all faiths and no faith.

I'm sorry you've had to put up with proselytizers. I find them seriously annoying, too, and studies have shown that door-to-door work is the least effective way to convert anyone. That's why I usually tell them that, hand them back their materials and tell them to stop wasting God's resources. ;)

I'm an atheist living in the bastion of liberal, San Francisco, and I've encountered this nonsense not only from Christians, but from the "crystal" people as well. It's peace and love and earth-mother until I mention I don't believe in any of that, then the claws come out.

I was yelled at by a couple I had only just met at a friends party when I mentioned I don't believe in Karma. They went immediately to crossed arms, yelling at me, accusing me of having no moral/ethical compass...it simply isn't possible! <sputter sputter...> No difference whatsoever between them and the Jerry Falwells of the world, no difference at all. It was simply inconceivable that I didn't agree.

I've also had people try to preach to me at work while I'm a captive audience (fixing their computer).

I simply don't put up with it. I start by being nice about it, but firm nonetheless. "I'm not interested, thank you" in all but the glass eyed zombies, generally takes care of it.

I love San Fran and don't get ther nearly often enough. To be crabbed at by "crystal Karma" proelytizers would be a refreshing change! :hi:

Their beliefs are exactly as unproven (or in many cases DISproven) as religions' claims.

I must tell you though..I love your Hello Cthulu! That is a thing of beauty!

And that is germain to this board. The Falwells of this world are politically organized and use what they call religion for personal and political agendas. The Crystal folks have yet to come after anybody's rights in an organized fashion. The Fundies have. For decades and with a vengence.

I never have understood that.

David

why would an atheist care about someone thinking they're going to hell?

You're correct, that wouldn't make sense, and speaking for myself, I don't care about that.

What I do care about however, is the belief that atheists cannot be trusted, http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2006/03/24/67686

or that we are not citizens of the U.S. or patriots, http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aa011.htm

:shrug:

I assumed he didn't believe what they had been telling him. Seemed more like doctrinal issues.

David

got me the straight poop on the Founding Fathers.

I am a Deist................. I guess.

And wish that the assumption that I have done something Wrong for speaking would go away.

You don't believe you've done anything wrong so ignore it or just tell them you disagree. Find some bible verses to support your points and use those.

David

And am just looking to lose the American assumption that if I do speak back to a Christian about Christianity - than I have spoken "hate speech". That I have entered a new, special level of offense. That I haven't followed the assumed rules.
That's all.

I think the OP *is* speaking back - and the OP hasn't done *anything* wrong with this thread.

Pointing out verses that show them they have no room to condemn anyone may achieve the desired goal. That's the point.

David

Unfortunately, _some_ non-believers (mis)using Bible verses to "prove" their points generate head scratches and chuckles aplenty for the stunning lack of context (the whole Matthew 7 "judge not" quote being the most mangled/abused by some non-believers). Kinda like quoting Redstate and Free Republic to convince conservatives/Republicans of something.


Duke

Speaking with respect isn't wrong, and it's been shown plenty of times right here on DU that Christians take that just fine... and respond with the same respect.

When you insist on painting everyone with the same broad brush, and proclaiming that all Christians are the same and intrude on your "freedoms", then you are the one who is guilty of the offense you claim that Christians commit against you.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Don't leave home without it.

Because this society is marinated in woo-woo idiocy and false religious claims of superiority?

More to the point, why do we have to even justify it to you or anyone else?

I can't stand those "Everyone remotely different is going to Hell!" fucks. Fewer generalizations, please.

What do you guys cry out when you're having sex?

"Oh.... nothing!!"??

"Oh my lack of a belief in any higher power, YES!!"

Possibly the name of Richard Dawkins or Carl Sagan??

:hide: :rofl: :evilgrin:

Why is it so hard for some to imagine that one can have a good loud fuck and not mention god, jesus, or the entire pantheon of christian religious figures?

After all, SHE is the one responsible for the way I feel at that moment. If the "God" of the evangelical crowd had his way I'd probably just feel dirty and not really in an exclamatory mood.

On a related note, what about a person who is sexually turned on by God, or thoughts of God. What do we call them? Theosexuals? Do they practice Theoeroticism? I suppose Linda Blair might know...

tends to try to get others to view things the same way. Christians don't hold a patent on that.

Weren't you awhile back talking about trying to convert people to listen to Air America? I think it comes from the same place.

I am possibly flattered!;)

Sure. We all advocate. But I don't get to assume a special "mind your replies" zone surrounds me just because I am an Air America listener.

Congratuations for your restraint, I can't say much w/o unleashing on those creeps.

Don't you just goddamn love it when they tell you they'll pray for you?



:hi:

n/t

from what i have learned God appreciates that quiet personal prayer just between you and Him the most. it is not my place to put you down, my job is to live my life in such a way that you see me and say " i want what she has". i have fallen way short of that. it is not my place to judge you but to love you. there is but one judge and i have my own crap to answer for-i don't then want to be judged for judging you also. to my atheist brothers and sisters, i apologize sometimes i forget that everyone doesn't have a God or higher power. it is not my job to try to validate or invalidate anyone else's beliefs just to work on my relationship with God. if more Christians spent their time working on their relationship with God they wouldn't have time to judge and chastise others.

Rather than a member of the religion about Jesus.

That's a beautiful difference.

Does that make me a believer?

Excellent post!

'If you want to comfort a lost soul, go to a prison, a hospice, a hospital, a person on the street and help them out. Compared to these tortured souls, I am not lost. Please, I implore you, go to veterans hospitals and comfort the sick, the people who are suicidal if you wish to do God's work. "

...I saw that on a guy right after the Gay Pride parade a few years ago.

In my old age (53) I've seen Christianity change and mutate in a very scary way. Does anyone remember the show "Highway to Heaven" with Michael Landon? That show was unabashedly there to appeal to those with Christian values, 20-some years ago. It had plot lines like helping the poor, protecting the environment, making compassionate choices--you know, kinda like what Jesus was talkin' about in the Sermon on the Mount. At the time, I thought it was horribly corny and sentimental, but it seem to embody what I would have considered "Christian". And been a protest against the Reagan and 80s greed and selfishness.

Now, a generation later, Christianity is all about denying global warming and screaming at poor people that it's their fault (like living in a sinful city such as New Orleans) and God is punishing them. WTF??? How could someone like Tom Delay get away with saying he's a Christian???

In the interest of full disclosure, I've never seen Jesus as the Messiah, only a dude with a very beautiful philosophy that's basically a fusion of Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism. As the years go on, I realise more and more the mythology of any religion is used as mind control and to keep people oppressed--the exact opposite of what Jesus was about! Also, it's pretty convenient to blame all good and evil on outside sources, when humans need to account for their own acts and not look for divine forgiveness.

But that's just me--Anja the Agnostic. You're free to believe whatever you want--but if you want to open the conversation with me, then rest assured I'll have plenty to say back!

Which is what the OP's message is all about, as I read it.

"If, while enjoying DU, you come across some of us who simply have nothing to do with your religion - and as such feel free to not acknowledge the implicit agreement outlined above, don't add yet one more scolding on us - the accusation we are "bashing" you."

This is easily the most twisted version of reality I've seen posted here in a long time. For one thing, NO ONE here proselytises. Give me a link to any post (outside of r/t and religious subforums, because if you seek it out it aint proselytising) that has done so; that has insisted you accept Christ in order to save your grungy soul. Christians on DU do NOT behave that way. If you have a problem with those irl who do, take it out on them, not us.

So for you to dismiss the bashing of religious people--for it goes well beyond Christians--at DU with this ridiculous notion of refusing to be converted, is obnoxious. The religious here do nothing to invite the constant onslaught of insults and prejudice. It isn't "smart-alecky" either. It's vicious, nasty shit that increasingly looks like the norm.

No one here proselytizes. I have never once seen that. And don't say in my OP that I have seen that.

It's the things I've seen labelled as "hating" and "hate speech" that, upon inspection, seemed like mere snottiness to me or a lack of an automatic deference to religeon.

We all have to endure snottiness.

...people here "cannot be decent without christ".

Of course, it's been years, but I still remember that poster's words. And yes, they're still here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4365017#4365080

But no, we hear the chorus of how religion is hated, how the evil nasty atheists are the ones who can't show respect.

Disagreeing with you isn't "vile".

Even attacking religion itself IS NOT PREJUDICE. You have a right to your beliefs; you have absolutely no right whatsofuckingEVER to demand anyone respect the nonsense you believe.

Get over yourself.

your ability to remember a post from "years ago." If all people did was say they disagreed with me on religion, you'd never, ever hear a peep out of me about it. It would be a civil, great place if that's all they did. But you know that it's not. I mean, you cannot honestly claim that I'm talking about people "disagreeing" or even "attacking religion itself." The attacks are personal, they are against PEOPLE, not ideas, and they are in fact vile. You lot can pretend all you like that it isn't prejudice, but it isn't fooling anyone else.

:evilgrin: Am I going to hell?

I love it when they come to my door, but they never want to chat, only hand me a mini-magazine.

I'm going to try to convert those people to Atheism.

Look that tale up sometime. It involves a gracious pagan host allowing the bible thumping intruders in and features a guest appearance by his then teen-aged, sky clad daughter.

Bet they took his house off the list :evilgrin:

but wasn't Oberon Zell referring to his wife Morning Glory?

...is not bashing.

I respect every believer's right to believe whatever nonsense they wish.

I am under no obligation to respect those beliefs one iota. Nor are believers entitled to willfully misrepresent my LACK of belief as religion.

Secularism works.

That's not bashing? You said that if you adhere to a religion you are associating yourself with "lunacy". How else is that to be interpreted?

We are, all of us, 100% alike in everything we do, say, and believe. As such, every last one of us is completely and totally responsible for every single thing any one of us does. So, as a Christian who has NEVER evangelized, NEVER condemned, marched for gay/women/minority rights and always voted and worked for them too (including atheists) I must accept personal responsibility for something some bonefuck stupid delusional attention whore said. I am just as much at fault as any fundamentalist proselytizing jackass for what happened to you to piss you off. Thank you for pointing that out.

I described. A behavior having to do with posting too quickly that someone has engaged in Hate Speech - when the "hater" just seems to be only saying mildly mischievous things.

The posting is more narrowly aimed.

but from what you wrote, it seems that you don't make any distinctions.

Discussion topics relating to religion that have little or no relation to politics or current events must be posted in the Religion/Theology forum.

All my days on DU I have endured how messed up and illogical and fantastic in our beliefs we are. Every story of ill, if it even smacks of religion- or church- or spiritual-relatedness will get a dogpile of atheists and agnostics who, in their rabid sharing of their opinions, often "throw out the baby with the bath water" and miss the salient aspect of that story.

And quite frankly, I don't remember a single instance of a dogpile of Christians on a pagan, Wiccan, Muslim, Jew, Baha'i, atheist, agnost, logical positivist, or whatever. I just don't recall seeing that sort of scathing diatribe coming from Christians on this board.

Cheers.

As a metrospiritual, I object to having this posted here.

Hillary versus Obama without getting religion controversies in this thread. Good way to alienate more potential Obama voters if religion gets trashy....

BTW, for the record...Catholic and Christian and questioning.

....but my original post had to do with concerns I had with debate here at DU. Not an actual theological discussion.

Although if it had been moved - I wouldn't have fussed.

The bible says it's God heart desire that people come to know him
Also Humans have freewill, that's something the angels don't have.

I say all that to say this, you are free to live your life as you see fit, and if anyone judges you for it. Hit them with this
Judge not lest you be judge.

If that's too religious for you say this

Whenever you point the finger of blame, there are always 3 fingers pointing to you shame.

If that fails, tell them you give your alligence to Satan. That always scares us off
:rofl:

OMG - if people who think their religon gets bashed knew what WE have to put up with............

I really like the melody.

They don't do any of the things he SAID to do, like visit those in prison, and they do the things he said not to do, like stand up and pray in public, but they pretend to represent his views and teachings.

Between the condemnation of others and the cross-dragging that goes on at the slightest criticism of religion, it's enough to drive you crazy.

Good post. I can't recommend as it's over 24 hrs. old.

Julie

It gives me no joy in admitting that it exists. There are those on DU who basically have almost argued for the re-education of all of those who believe in any deity. Others have said that only the uneducated and stupid would believe in God. Most atheists are polite. Some are decidedly not. Some are also no better informed or intelligent than the worst fundies.

In as much as they are very dedicated to creating a corresponding public sentiment to bolster their own view since they apparently feel they are 100% correct on the issue, while all else, being "delusional," somehow fail to measure up since they don't share in their beliefs.

In other words, silly and unseemly beliefs in life beyond the five sensory world are equally as silly and unseemly as supposing a govt conspiracy to ensure continued war profiteering/police state measures enacted. I've definitely gotten a strong dose of this rationale from many DUers.

in that they're both mired in faith rather than reality.

Believe whatever you want, but don't expect to have your beliefs go unchallenged if you're making claims without evidence.

Sid

Frankly, I don't bother wasting my time with professional naysayers because no matter what is presented, what is said, whether it's presented as opinion or fact, it will be automatically disavowed by the crusaders.

If so many naysayers were truly disinterested, or 'above' the matter at hand, they'd simply ignore it. Yet the opposite reaction often occurs, as they seem particularly anxious to engage in an online battle of semantics, as if it really rattles their cage to the core knowing that there are others out there who believe/perceive differently than they. That deniers are so personally vested in their appeals is what speaks to their intentions, and so I've found that there are usually more earnest intentions among those with an open mind versus the ones attempting to shout down and belittle those they apparently perceive as enemies {due to what they think}.

as truth, which is most certainly not the case. I have no expectation that any of the truthers' minds will be changed by the arguments that occur in the dungeon. They're too far out in La-La land to join the reality based community, where most of the world lives.

But if a casual observer reads the arguments, and chooses science and rationality over faith and belief, then the argument will have been worthwile.

Sid

Because you alone claim to speak on behalf of science and rationality, as opposed to those you disagree with on such broad matters ... the ones you deem to be "kooks...far out in La-La land?" And you're so sure of yourself, yet you find it necessary to assert that you speak on behalf of a "reality based community where most of the world lives." {they do!?} Why so important to appeal to a majority "side," especially when a majority of the world's population believes in some form of god/spiritual power?

That's very generous of you, to say the least. For the life of me I can't pinpoint how or why it is you're a Lenny Bruce fan. No need to reply to that...just an observation.

stupid has been a regular thing here, which chafes me a little bit. But... it's all a part of posting on any board. People get into worse fights over their support of Hillary and/or Obama, so a little religious ribbing isn't going to end the world.

You shouldn't have to endure such evangelization. If it makes you feel better, I've had those conversations with evangelicals in the past, and I am Catholic. (They don't like us much, either.) I shut it down with a: "I am confident in my beliefs, and I really am not interested. But thank you for your concern." I don't evangelize, myself... but if someone brings up the topic of religion and asks my opinion, I'm happy to share. And for anyone to condemn another to hell, they are ignorant. It's all speculation, as nobody truly knows the hearts, minds, and souls of other people.

It equivocates a snippy discussion about religion with REAL bashing...i.e. gay bashing or jew bashing.

You can't "bash" someone over the internets. And you certainly can't bash an idea. Telling somebody their religion sucks is not bashing...in fact, I find it equivalent to telling someone their politics suck or their thoughts on gun control/access sucks. It may not be polite, but it isn't bashing.

"You enjoy such freedom to politely condemn all the rest of us to damnation."

Now *that* sound much more like the canvassers who come to my door proselytizing their own brand of politics.

As a matter of fact, replace the word 'religion' with 'politics', and it sounds like the righteous assurance of every political activist I know who feels that their particular brand of politics is The Right One.

The political fervor here often rivals that of any tent revival.

True story. And I'm going to go into a little detail that perhaps I really shouldn't.

The priest at my poor son's memorial service thought it would be appropriate to, instead of talking about my son's life, preach a sermon about how whenever we sin by, for instance, viewing porn sites online, etc., we are asking for death.

I was in the front row of the church. I stood up and walked out. Here was this "Christian" putting images of my blameless son looking at porn sites, and thus deserving death, in the minds of the thousand-odd people who had come to mourn a life cut short. I re-entered the church after the service to confront him and I found that my dear sister, a Methodist minister, was reading him the riot act loudly in front of dozens of people. Good old sis.

A few weeks before it was clear that my son was in his final decline, a clearly concerned Christian asked me if I thought that perhaps this was God's way of getting the family all back in the church. (The rest of my family attends church.) It is a DARN good thing that was a phone conversation, and it is a DARN good thing that person has since moved out of town.

Finally, my son's last conversation with me was an agonizing, word-by-word discussion of whether or not he was so sick because we weren't close enough to God.

SOMEONE had put that despicable theory in his head. If I knew who, I'd be in jail right now.

I HATE Christians. I know you're not all like that, but too bad. Keep your fantasies away from me, they've caused enough agony in my life. And yes, I clearly realize that a good Christian, my sister, jumped up when she was needed.

But my son died wondering if it was my fault. Try living with that. I'm STILL not at all sure I can.

You thought YOU had a horror story in your life?

Christians have simply hurt me too much. I want NOTHING to do with them.

Apologies for being uncomfortably honest.

That priest should be relieved of his duties.

I used to be Episcopalian, and I left the church, but I have to say I've never heard of such bad behavior. That priest was way out of line.

Yeah, it kinda hurts. Hasn't killed me yet, but it keeps trying to.

Oh and by the way, that church later went Anglican. Surprise, surprise.

that's all up in arms about recognizing gay people as human beings.

True Christians don't act that way. I have a lot of respect for people who genuinely try to follow Jesus's words. I don't include people like those you encountered in that group.

I don't HATE anyone at all. I'm not built that way. It all just turns to depression. But boy, are they ever pushing it.

So as to end on a positive note, let me once more praise my Methodist minister sister, a proud liberal voice both in her Oklahoma congregation and in the Methodist leadership.

At my Father's funeral, I was urged repeatedly to start attending their church. I was advised that I really needed to start bringing my step-mother (someone I really like, despite everything)to their church each week. Take my Dad's place, so to speak.

So.... at the time of that funeral what I needed was to consider converting to Christianity so I could take the woman my Dad left my Mother for to her church each week?!?!

These were my Dad's and step-mom's best friends - they know our story - I was told this 3 times and assured that that's what God was saying to my heart.

:wtf:

Your story is much worse, however. As far as what your son asked - I can't help but think that dying must surely put every kind of thought that has ever been thought into a person's head - at some point in the process. Even the most devout will surely ask if they got sick by not being perfectlydevout enough.

We, too, will ask it all as well some day.

That particular Episcopal priest should be reported to his bishop. He has no business judging the deceased, and I don't blame you for being angry. (I wonder if that priest is one of the "dissidents" who is leaving on the issue of gay rights. They tend to be rather nasty on other issues as well.)


ON EDIT: I wrote this before reading your post #155. Yeah, that's exactly the type who goes "Anglican."

:grr:

We aren't - get to know us and you'll see that the majority of Christians do not pull this shit!

My life is full of 'em.

My post applies only to the ones who sling the accusation of "Hate Speech" at the mildest little snarks.

I may not have been clear enough about that.

If someone wants to give me a hearty, back-handed compliment, or tell me that "you engage in magical thinking" or that I worship a "sky-fairy", or other bits of minimally invasive pejoratives, it's much more indicative of that person's own civility than it is illustrative of my grounding in the sciences.

There are ways to be polite and yet still disagree-- I consider my ex-brother in law and his passion for astrology. We had numerous differences, yet managed to stay civil and friendly, despite the fact that our belief systems were 180 degrees apart.

But then again, I'm a pretty mellow guy. Having been called far worse things by far better people has inured me to the paper bullets of someone else's brain-- especially when it comes to pre-packaged, easily marketed conceptions and trendy bumper sticker slogans about what my religion may or may not be.

So I don't really think it's a person's faith (or lack of faith, as the case may be) that warrants condemnation-- it's the attitude of the person himself that calls for it.

:thumbsup:

Many of you claim you never push your religion, but also claim you are constantly attacked for it. If you are not pointing it out, how would anyone know to 'bash' you? I mean, this is the internet. I could be Pope Benny Ratzinger himself, right here and now, and no one would know. I could be an angel and you'd be unaware, but somehow, people just suss out this faith you never bring up and jump on you for it? How is it that your faith or mine or anyone's comes up in a political forum at all, ever?

Any religion, for that matter? :shrug:

"If you are not pointing it out, how would anyone know to 'bash' you? "


If one gives an anecdotal story about their weekend and mentions that A or B happened just after they left church-- although it's not "pushing" religion on anyone, it illustrates an indication that the person probably goes to church.

If one mentions something that they've heard or received from their pastor or minister, again, we have an obvious indication that that person may be religious.

Although neither one of the above examples seems to me to be "pushing religion", they also seem to give a rather clear indication that the poster has/leads/tries to lead a spiritual path.

I imagine that most of out DU posters are quite smart enough to practice a bit of inductive reasoning from time to time.

Are you ready to show some examples of people being jumped on and bashed merely for mentioning going to chruch? That would be very wrong. What I see are people who want to talk about what Pastor Moneychanger said, and expect that others give respect to those words based on the 'Pastor' title, which is often self bestowed.
I understand that mentioning an activity can show a person's life if one wishes to show and mention, the point is, do people actually get 'bashed' for such casual refereneces, or is it when they start in on what was 'recieved' in their 'teachings' and such? Ask me to listen to what Rev Jones had to say is asking me to practice your religion. Asking me to respect what he says is absolutely unamerican.

I answered directly to this question posed by you...

"If you are not pointing it out, how would anyone know to 'bash' you?"

... and I believe that I answered it in a valid and appropriate manner.

As for the rest of your post, it's a bit over my head as I've never come out and stated that people have been "bashed" merely for mentioning their church attendance.

If that was indeed your initial and immediate concern, perhaps you simply could have stated that in the first place. :shrug:

But to be perfectly frank, I rarely read on DU from anyone (regardless of faith) the words of their minister/rabbi/anyone of apostolic authority from a previous sermon, let alone anyone implicitly demanding that it be taken as such and of its own accord.

If there are threads of that nature on DU, I certainly be interested in viewing them...

Don't mention the words God, Christ, Jesus, church, etc.

Because dressing like that, er...saying words like that just sets you up, you see...you're just asking for it.

Duke

Hyperbole aside, who asked you to censor your word list or hide in the corner? Not me. I said that if you expect me to render respect to the opinions of your mininster on the basis of his being a minister, that is asking far too much. Say whatever you'd like. Even now, you are saying that others said what they did not say, which frakly makes your sniping about religion rather moot. What religion allows for putting words into other's mouths and then asking that they defend them? Which one condones such forms of witness?

No one told you not to say God. I said do not ask me to participate in your religion. If you tell me what Rev Salesman thinks about anything,fine if you must. But expect that I will agree or consider his status as legitimate and you cross the line into asking me to practice your faith, instead of mine. You are free to tell me, and I am free to tell you what I think of it. If you expect to tell and not be told, then you are asking me to give your religion respect that I do not give to apostate entities. I do not have to join you for you to be free. It is knowing truth that makes you free.


I was raised in the religion of Jesus, which differs from the religion about him. Jesus said, and I follow this wisdom, that any and all people who proclaim their faith in public do so only for the glory from men. God has nothing to do with it. Jesus said that those who pray in public are not heard by God, just by the people that they pray in front of. Jesus said to only pray in private, and not to do as those others do. Lip service, public prayer. Jesus said famously that many will come to him saying 'Lord Lord' and he will not know them. For they did him wrong in his form as the least among us. Jesus in in jail. He's in the hospital. He's hungry.

He also, by the way and in all respect of course, taught very clearly that our words should be direct and true. "Let your yes be yes and your no be no."

You were not asked to be silent, merely to respect others as you ask to be respected. This is a lesson the Christ himself tried to teach. Snark all you'd like. If that is what you want in return. Give what you wish to get, not what you are now getting. Golden Rule.

The fact that you assume I'd be offended by the mention of Jesus is hilarious. What offends me is the tawdry and political dragging of a holy name through the mud of your personal agenda.

If you practiced what Jesus taught, this whole thread would not exist. Jesus said that all prayer should be in private, and public proclaimations of faith are false and about the agendas of men. Like the OP, that is how I practice. As Jesus taught. This public promotion and proclaimation I see as really wrong and indicitive not of faith but of apostacy.

Dobesh. Pastor Dobesh. My minister's name is Pastor Dobesh.

Not Reverend Salesman or any of the other snide pejoratives you've oh-so-cleverly used.

And to be honest, it's that very same back-handed type of reference that all sides could do much better without using. It's that very same type of remark that, if dropped by everyone (you and I included) would allow an environment much better suited to dialog.

You're considered a simpleton, a "God-idiot", or whatever too-clever-by-half pejoratives they can whip up. Who'd want to "dialog" with people they can't even muster up simple civility for?

Duke

I got some "God, IDIOT!" type responses, as well as a quote from Napoleon dynamite. But no references to christians being god-idiots. I should search for simpleton.

Searched simpleton and christians. I only looked throught the first 3 or 4 pages. Most of the simpletons were a reference to Bush, and one was a born again christian who used to be an atheist who thought christians were simpletons when he was an atheist, I guess.

"Jesus said that all prayer should be in private, and public proclaimations of faith are false "

But that's a literal translation, in context, the passage (to me) speaks more to intent than to content-- you are a Literalist in regards to the Bible, then?

some item of religious news comes up. Much of the time, such a post will attract a host of the bitter variety of atheists hurling insults at Christianity, less often at other religions, even when the insults are not a propos to the story or are based on ignorance.

And as for your last statement, it's not exactly true.

Bryant
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