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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 07:24 AM
Original message
Forks are evil! Eat with your hands!
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. The first fork to come to America
made its debut here in 1629, I believe. When I taught grade school, I loved to quash myths about the first Thanksgiving--no turkey, no forks, etc. Read somewhere that a high class person used fewer fingers to grab the food than a low class person did.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Could Coryate in 1611 have been silenced by Catholic ridicule for introducing forks to England?
Henry had earlier split with Rome and appropriated Catholic properties: the political status of Catholics remained unsettled for some generations afterwards: Guy Fawkes' 1605 Gunpowder Plot, in 1605, shortly after James I assumed the throne, produced an anti-Catholic hysteria and a wave of anti-Catholic legislation, for example. The Catholic Church thus lacked the power to quash England's use of forks around 1611, even if the Church had desired to do so

Coryate did report that one of his close friends ridiculed him by calling him Furcifer
<pdf link:> http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9901E3DB1F39E433A25750C1A9609C94669ED7CF

The fork was actually known in England before Coryate

sucket fork

small metal utensil used for eating sweetmeats, or sucket, with a two- or three-pronged fork at one end of the handle and a spoon bowl, usually of teaspoon size, at the other. A sucket fork is mentioned in Edward VI's inventory of 1549 ...

http://original.britannica.com/eb/article-9070127/sucket-fork#98641.hook


Of course, if the Catholic Church had really opposed utensils such as the fork, one should not expect to find the device in an altar painting such as this:

http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at.nyud.net:8090/server/images/7000211.JPG
A sucket-fork rests on a table by a footed bowl in a detail from The Annunciation from a Viennese altarpiece, c. 1460-1470
Medieval & Renaissance Cutlery
http://larsdatter.com/cutlery.htm

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. How informative! From now on, I will associate the name struggle4progress with sucket.
:evilgrin:
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. And fork you, too!
:evilgrin:

I was hoping for an opportunity to use that cheap and obvious joke
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. !
:toast:
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. The story of the Venetian Doge's wife is similarly suspect:
Wikipedia, for example, relates:

Teodora Anna Dukaina Selvo .... was married to Domenico Selvo in Constantinople (1075) .... Her Byzantine extravagance included the use of a fork ... There is an account of her lavish manners written by Peter Damian, the Cardinal Bishop of Ostia, entitled "Of the Venetian Doge's wife, whose body, after her excessive delicacy, entirely rotted away"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teodora_Anna_Dukaina_Selvo


But:

... The problems with all this are (1) Domenico Selvo, then Doge of Florence, married Teodora Doukaina (AKA Ducas) in 1075, (2) Saint Peter Damian, Cardinal Bishop of Ostia, died in 1072, and (3) the quotes do not appear to be attributable to any 11th Century source. I have also been unable to locate any Biblical prohibition against forks or locate any Medieval reference to a prohibition against forks ...

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:fK2xVGnmjwEJ:www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-UTENSILS/forks-msg.rtf+%22Peter+Damian%22+Teodora&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=14&gl=us


Damian's death date seems clear enough:

Peter Damian, Saint

Doctor of the Church, Cardinal-Bishop of Ostia, b. at Ravenna 'five years after the death of the Emperor Otto III,' 1007; d. at Faenza, Feb. 21, 1072 ...

http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Peter_Damian%2C_Saint
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-14-08 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'm not sure about forks, but I've heard...
...that there is no spoon.
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