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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:48 AM
Original message
Christians Pull Ahead With Insurmountable Schism Lead
Conservatives Form Rival Group To Episcopal Church

The Huffington Post | RACHEL ZOLL | December 3, 2008 09:16 PM EST | AP


Artist's depiction of a typical church schism....

NEW YORK — Theological conservatives upset by liberal views of U.S. Episcopalians and Canadian Anglicans formed a rival North American province Wednesday, in a long-developing rift over the Bible that erupted when Episcopalians consecrated the first openly gay bishop. The announcement represents a new challenge to the already splintering, 77-million-member world Anglican fellowship and the authority of its spiritual leader, Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams.

The new Anglican Church in North America includes four breakaway Episcopal dioceses, dozens of individual parishes in the U.S. and Canada, and splinter groups that left the Anglican family years, or in one case, more than a century ago. Its future status in the Anglican Communion is unclear. It is unprecedented for an Anglican national province to be created where any other such national church already exists. But traditionalists say the new group is needed to represent the true historic tradition of Anglican Christianity. Bishop Robert Duncan, who leads the breakaway Diocese of Pittsburgh, is the proposed new leader of the new North American province, which says it has 100,000 members.

"The Lord is displacing the Episcopal Church," Duncan said in a news conference in Wheaton, Ill., where the proposed constitution for the new province was drafted. He noted that membership and worship attendance in the U.S. denomination have been declining for years. "We are a body that is growing, that is planting new congregations, that is concerned to be an authentic Christian presence in the U.S. and Canada," Duncan said.

The Rev. Charles Robertson, adviser to Episcopal Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, said in a statement that "there is room within The Episcopal Church for people with different views and we regret that some have felt the need to depart from the diversity of our common life in Christ." Williams has been striving for years to find a compromise that would keep Anglicans together, but he lacks the power to force a resolution. The Anglican Communion links 38 self-governing provinces that trace their roots to the missionary work of the Church of England. The Episcopal Church is the Anglican body in the U.S., while the Anglican Church in Canada represents the communion in that country.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/03/conservatives-forming-riv_n_148273.html">MORE

- Those Crazy Christians just love to schism, don't they? I like it when they do it too. Because as long as they're schisming with each other, they're not fucking with anybody else.

Of course the Jews and Islamics don't have a chance of ever catching the Christians in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism_(religion)#Examples">The Great Schism Race. By my count its Christians: 34, Islamics: 7 and the Jews: 2. They'd need a "miracle" to catch them now......

==============================================================================
DeSwiss


http://www.atheisttoolbox.com/">The Atheist Toolbox





"Prayer is just a way of telling god that his divine plan for
you is flawed -- and shockingly stingy" ~ Betty Bowers
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Ah, but you see...
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 11:56 AM by MineralMan
the ideal is to follow this verse:

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them."

Eventually all churches will have two or three people in the congregation. :bounce:
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's the spirit!!!!
- That way, they won't even need preachers. I wonder what kind of jobs they'll have when that happens???

"We're all sinners" is a declaration of moral bankruptcy.


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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. They'll start bartending
Listening to sob stories, handing out wine -- it's not really that different.

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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Not by my count
I suspect Jews are a bit higher than that, depending upon your definition. I know of at least 3 if my understanding is correct. And even amongst the Orthodox, I suspect one could define some variations that would qualify.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I was basing it upon the definition and examples of "schism...."
....in the words of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism_(religion)#Examples">The Great and Powerful Wiki!

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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. Few spectacles more edifying or entertaining
than watching christians smack one another around.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I wholeheartedly agree....
....as a matter of fact the only thing I like better are the NFL playoffs!

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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. "Already splintering"????
Where the *&^& do they get this crap, anyway?

A small percentage of bigots decides to take their marbles and march off to CANA, and this is SCHISM? It's not even that. And TEC is not splintering in the least.

This will only strengthen the real church. I highly doubt these clowns will receive any recognition from the Anglican Communion. They'll be buddies with Peter Akinola and his ilk - and they're welcome to him. Meantime the rest of us can get on with our lives without the ugly disruption of these people. Good riddance.
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. It'll be interesting to see
if Ahmanson and his ilk continue funding this new baby they've birthed. Fomenting schism is cheap and easy. The next step isn't, especially if some of the material assets have to be surrendered when they leave.

I'm willing to bet the reclusive Ahmanson goes even more incommunicado, now that he has a real responsibility on his hands.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I do hope they walk out with the shirts on their backs and that's it
the church's laws are pretty clear - it's just when other law gets involved that it can get sticky.

I'd love to see new churches planted in some of these old churches - and have these guys see just how much they really care when they're worshipping in a basement somewhere and not the fancy church that great-grandfather built, you know?
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Now that he's realized one of his dreams
I hope one of two things come true for Ahmanson.

1. He finds out building a new church for widely dispersed thousands is going to be dear even for his fortune. And he actually has to listen to high feelings and dissension from his "charges", which isn't as fun as playing malicious gadfly. A real leader, he ain't. His money, time, and health is squandered doing something that makes him miserable.

2. He disappears. The New Episcopalians meeting in strip malls between the Laundromat and Hungarian takeout realize they've been used. His stock dives not only in the new church, but among the Presbyterians and Methodists he's been toying with. America's most pious dilettante can't find a church he's welcome in, takes the LaRouche track of misunderstood visionary, writing bitter screeds no one reads.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Totally agree.
And these "new Episcopalians" are going to be a very fractious bunch, I think. Watch them splinter off into group after group of their own next.

(Love the Laundromat and Hungarian takeout part, too. You must be a writer!)
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Hah!
No, you're too kind. Thank you. I recently lived in Virginia Beach/Norfolk where the churches are as thick on the ground as I've ever seen. There's no end to the storefront ministries out there, some of them in distinctive buildings like Pizza Hut and Denny's.

I loathe the likes of Ahmanson because I've lived long enough to see the terrible societal impact of a hijacked denomination, namely the Southern Baptists. If political nutters can turn what was perhaps the most stalwart of church/state separatists into dominionists, I don't think it's too far fetched to expect they can do it again. I may not have much use for churchin', but plain self interest makes me value the bulwark mainstream denominations provide against the crazies.

It's looking like the world is about to tip into a tumultuous period, possibly the worst ever, and apocalyptic Fundies with hands on institutional power will happily use it to steer us into cataclysm. We need sane heads to prevail before the problems we face get out of hand.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Nothing to argue with there!
:toast:
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. "This will only strengthen the real church. "
- And I'm sure those other guys are saying the exact same thing. "Strength, through fewer numbers...."

{And might I add JerseygirlCT, you are my favorite religionist on these DU boards. I respect your position(s), if not your doctrine(s). And you keep me on my toes. Thanks and have a great "holy" day season.};)
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Thanks very much DeSwiss!
I imagine they may be - but they've shown themselves pretty fractious already, while those in the TEC have sort of bent over backwards to be inclusive - even of people who would exclude them! So I can very easily see their small group continuing to fracture into smaller and smaller groups as they argue over "proper" theology and doctrine -- while TEC just goes about its business, without a great deal of their ugliness. There's a lot of work we've been trying to focus on in helping the needy of the world - be nice to see that take more of center stage instead of the likes of Duncan!
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. Who gets to decide
what the "real" Episcopal/Anglican church is? Who gets to decide which individuals and which congregations are part of the true church and which aren't? Is this just a matter of who gets the property in a divorce, or who gets to call themselves what, or is there something deeper? Does God know the "true" Anglicans from the fakes?
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. The church that's been here - as opposed to the ones leaving...
they'll call themselves whatever they like, of course. And claim to be the "real" ones, of course.

Bottom line is what does it really matter? Those of us who have been worshiping together in a church will continue to do so, with less of the ugliness brought about by those who would attempt to make our church into something it's not.

I don't think God is in the least worried about whether Gene Robinson is gay or not. (For that matter, neither is most of his diocese, or TEC!).

I don't think God much cares what church anyone says they belong to.

I think God cares a great deal about how we treat one another. And the more loving and inclusive attitude is to be found in TEC, not in those leaving because they cannot stand to see women ordained, or gays and lesbians treated as human beings, or ordained, or married.

As far as property, church law says it all belongs, as it always has, to the church, not the parish. These folks leave, but leave the buildings and all that's in it, behind. Secular law, which will undoubtedly be called into it all, will be messier.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. When you say that
God "cares" or doesn't care, what does that mean and what do you base that on that is more authoritative than what other people believe about what's important to God?
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I can't control what other people believe, Scott
So I don't spend a lot of time worrying about that. It's not some cosmic "Mom! I was here first!" contest.

Behavior-wise, I believe the main church, the existent church, is more inclusive, more loving, follows more closely in the way that we are called. I've seen a lot of judgment, much of it nearly gleeful, from those leaving, but not a whole lot of care or love.

As far as authoritative - who's authority? Who judges that? Ours is a very democratic church, actually - in fact, founded on a lot of the same organizing principles as this country - by many of the same people at the same time. Authority on such matters is usually found in General Convention - a meeting of clergy, bishops and laity. Since this group has removed itself from that polity, they're not part of that authority any longer. In fact, that's one of their preferences - they seem to rather a much more strictly hierarchical system - such as the church in Nigeria, basically a fiefdom of its archbishop, a pretty nasty number.

And of course I can't claim to know what God thinks with absolute authority. I speak only from what I've decided based on my lifetime of thought about it. Opinion, albeit somewhat informed opinion. Others obviously have arrived at different opinions. Someday perhaps it will cease to be opinion and we'll have authoritative answers. I don't think they're to be found on this earth.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Well, that would be your God's authority and judgment
And if you claim that one version of religious practice "follows more closely in the way that we are called" than another, then you too have made a judgment that there is a right way to do things in your God's eyes and that you and your group are more faithful to it than any other group (or presumably you would move in that direction). If you acknowledge no authority from God, but only human guesswork, why believe and worship at all? Any good works and sense of community that may come out of a church based on the moral reasoning that human beings are capable of can be accomplished without all of the robes and religious falderal.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Yeah, yeah, yeah
There is certainly some authority to be found for us in scripture. It all boils down to "love one another". Given that simple authority, then yes, TEC follows far more closely than those who have their starched knickers in a twist over a gay bishop or a female Presiding Bishop.

Absolutely I acknowledge God's authority. I don't acknowledge any human being's ability to interpret that infallibly. We do the best we can with the tools we've been given.

You do know that your arguments for atheism are rather falling on deaf ears with me, right? So if it's not any sort of genuine conversation, but a chance for a few "gotcha!" attempts, I'd rather opt out now, thanks.

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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Oh, I have no hope or intent
of getting you or any other religious person to see reason. It simply amuses me how so many liberal Christians claim to be wonderfully inclusive and non-judgmental when they are in fact either being disingenuously just the opposite or else diluting their religion to the point where it doesn't even need to be a religion, with a deity, rituals, scripture and all of the other trappings. I just wish they would be honest and admit the truth that genuine and honest examination always leads to: "Yes, I know my religious beliefs make no sense, but they make me feel better, so just let me have them."

And btw...how often do you wonder if your interpretation of your God's authority is completely wrong, and the people with "their starched knickers in a twist" are spot on? Are you as potentially fallible as them in your interpretation?


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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
17. At least they're not coming into our church.
They had been talking about it, and frankly, that worried me. We don't need more bigots in the Orthodox Church, thanks.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. While I can sympathize with you here....
...and understand your relief, I can't help but do so while also remembering that in the end, all religions "separate." Because it is in their natures to do so. Either you are a believer or you are not.

- Historically, it is when the believers outnumber the non-believers that's when you'll really see what bigotry means...
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Do you know much of this splinter group?
They're separating because the Episcopal Church has ordained women and gays and is trying to make their church more loving and inclusive of everyone. They were talking of joining with one of the Orthodox jurisdictions, thinking we were as bigoted as they are. Some of us are, to be sure, and it's a real problem in the Church, but we don't need more people who think God's about rules and not love.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Their rationale for "separating" notwithstanding....
...this only points out more clearly from my perspective, to the fact that Christianity has been doing this since its beginnings. The early Christian factions fought each other over whether to keep kosher, or not. Others fought over beliefs and rites that were, and are still now associated with the Coptics and other esoterica from Egyptian religions. The Roman factions of Christians under Constantine's direction, ultimately forced everyone, especially the Greeks with their Platonistic/Origenistic beliefs and interpretations, to kowtow to the party line. Declared them heretics and voted on the books they wanted and swept everything else under the rug that they hadn't already burned to the ground. And when arguments and excommunications proved insufficient to get their point across, an Inquisition was in order.

My point is that these same Anglican "separators' like all their predecessors have also been ignoring all those other precepts and verses found in the same chapters they are now using to justify what they're doing. Who decides what's to be taken as literal and what is to be considered only a metaphor? Can we all do it? All Christians do indeed cherry-pick their verses and thus their beliefs, in addition to a healthy yet constant does of cognitive dissonance is necessary in order to create a sense of seamlessness and believability in their religious belief systems.

- But as far as I'm concerned, if one can pick and choose which verses apply and which ones don't, then the ballgame's over. And that's exactly what they're doing.....
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. That, I would agree with.
It's a part of the faith. Annoying, but still a part of the faith. We're constantly fighting over something stupid.
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