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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:33 PM
Original message
Oh you cute little Christians with your naivety scenes.
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 04:34 PM by originalpckelly
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3630116&mesg_id=3630116

I think it's cool they put that in there.

If they're going to allow one expression, they must allow all. I want to know where my spaghetti monster is!
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. Fuck it. We'll do it live.
This "war on Christmas" business is unadulterated bigotry.

It's directed at atheists, Jews, and anybody else who isn't a fundamentalist christian.

It was that way fifty years ago when they fought "communists" in the "war on christmas," it's that way now.

They haven't even bothered to update the rhetoric.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
154. Oh yeah, it's just like McCarthyism
:eyes:

Come on. Our bitching about their bitching about the "War on Christmas" is about as bad as their bitching in the first place.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #154
227. It is McCarthyism.
I've got an old book in my garage called "The War on Christmas," written in the early fifties.

I must have picked it up in a free box from a used book story.

The whole thesis is that communists, liberals, and other undesirables (miscegenationists, for example) are trying to ruin Christmas by spreading secularism. All of the rhetoric is exactly the same as what's used by Bill O'Reilly. Or some of the rubes in this thread.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think it sucks. Mightily.
What's the point in mocking someone's beliefs? Oh, right, none.

And, atheism is the absence of a belief, not a belief.


Sorry. I'm just sick to death of this shit. The right co-opted religion and now the left takes every opportunity that they can to shit on believers with their mocking about how stupid they are.

Here's the difference. Atheists can't prove that something doesn't exist. Believers have faith that something does.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Atheism is the belief there is no god.
My belief that there is no god does not mock your belief that there is a god.

If you can't handle it, too bad for you.
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. atheism is EITHER that positive belief, or
in the negative form, the simple lack of a belief in a god.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Right, you can say the same thing about Christianity.
It's the belief that God exists.

It's the lack of belief that God doesn't exist.

They're both systems of belief.

"There is no god" is just as valid a statement as "There is a God."
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. Exactly
they are both forms of belief.

I could have sworn that you and I had this conversation a few months ago, its good to see that you have come around.
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #46
89. lack of belief is NOT a belief - it is the absence of a belief.
Why is this concept so hard for some to grasp?

It's trite-but-true to say that the "I don't believe that there is a god" branch of atheism is a belief in much the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #89
125. Yup.
Not believing in something doesn't make it a belief. No way. No how. It makes you not a believer in something.

I don't believe in Santa Claus. Does that mean I get to start a religion based on not believing in Santa and it would be considered a belief? Or is it just not believing?

Pretty sure it's the latter.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #125
129. If you say there is no such thing as Santa...
are you mocking people who do believe in Santa?
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #89
208. You are wrong. There is more than one definition of the word believe.
Religious nuts think that they can co-opt the word believe. Sorry don't think so.


believe
verb
to think that something is true, correct or real
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
71. Except that one is a fairy tale, and the other, the truth.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #71
95. You can say the same about either.
Both sides say they're the truth, and the other isn't.

Neither can prove either way.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #95
102. Apply Occam's Razor.
The truth is out there. You don't even have to look hard.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #102
107. Occam's Razor is a subject of opinion. Not fact.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #107
115. Faith is not fact, that is NOT an opinion. It is a fact.
Evolve, you'll feel better.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #115
119. Occam's Razor isn't a fact at all.
Occam's Razor is the axiom, invented by a Franciscan monk btw, that the simplest explanation is probably the right one.

"simplest" and "probably" are all very subjective, facts don't enter into it.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #119
124. But common sense does. Fairy tales are fun!But, they are just fairy tales.
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 05:27 PM by MNDemNY
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #124
126. Common sense isn't a fact either.
Common sense says that heavy objects fall faster than light objects.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #126
133. Not to one who understands physics.
What science do you use to bolster your belief in a god?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #133
138. I'm an atheist.
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 05:37 PM by Bornaginhooligan
I'm just not a sucker for logical fallacies.

Physics and common sense are two different things.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #138
147. If you get that "common" then common sense says there is no god.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #147
149. No, common sense says there is god.
That's why atheists are such a tiny fraction of society.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #149
150. No, "common" PEOPLE say that, there is no sense involved.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #150
151. Common sense often isn't right.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #151
152. Yes. I concede that point.
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Sal Minella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #149
195. To step sideways a bit -- I think common sense can simply not explain so many things, that people
came up with "God" to account for things and events they couldn't account for by using reason. Common sense says many things are unexplainable -- then sometimes the human desire for order and reason explains things with a "God."
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #195
210. But one must evolve.Science explains more every day.
religion his a huge barrier to knowledge.:hippie: :)
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:34 PM
Original message
Individuals don't evolve.
:shrug:
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
216. that is true.
semantics.:banghead:
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:47 PM
Original message
Their 'beliefs' can
So to speak.

O8)
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
228. Yes, with any luck at all.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #95
114. Thank you again
:thumbsup:
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
202. How about...
"Toasters can turn into badgers" vs "Toasters can not turn into badgers"?

Are both of those statements equally valid?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
61. That agnosticism..."the simple lack of a belief in a god."
The lack of a belief in a god (or alternative). Atheism is the belief there is no God.

Agnosticism makes no assumption or belief, whereas atheism has tenants in belief/faith.
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
93. wrong. AGNOSTICISM is a statement regarding man's ability to
know a god or gods. Atheism comes in positive (hard) or negative (soft) varieties. Neither are equivalent to agnosticism, which is more akin to "if there is a god, I as a human being am too feeble to properly conceptualize it, so I won't bother."
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #93
140. Not exactly...
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 05:40 PM by Oregone
Rather, Agnosticism is not about man's ability to know Gods, but rather, a statement of man's ability to know anything that cannot be proven with objective evidence:

"That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. " Huxley, Christianity and Agnosticism.

The fundamental tenant of agnosticism, as defined by Huxley, is that one will not believe in that which is not provable. In contrast, the common definition of Atheism can be summarized as: "the doctrine or belief that there is no God".
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Sal Minella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #61
204. Prefix "A" = "without." Afebrile = without fever....A-theism = without god.


Gnosis -- as in "prognosticate" = "to know" --
a-gnostic = "don't KNOW" if there's a god or not.

It's all already there in the words.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #204
224. This is in line with what I am saying
With agnosticism, you do not "know" (believe) there is God anymore that you "know" (believe) there is not one. A tenant of Agnosticism is not believing in anything without objective evidence. Hence, a property of agnosticism is a "lack of a belief in a god", rather than the belief that there is no God (Atheism).

"That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism. " - Christianity and Agnosticism, Huxley, 1889

The words "lack of a belief in a god" is far more descriptive of agnosticism than atheism.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #61
225. Some agnostics are theists, and some are atheists.
You either believe in one or more gods, or you don't.

If a person believes that gods are real, then they are theists. If a person does not believe that gods are real, or if they are uncertain, then they are godless atheists. Agnosticism has nothing to do with it.

To put it another way:

Believes god is real = Theist
Everyone else = Atheist

A theist can have fun with the above by claiming that 100% of brain dead people are atheists.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:51 PM
Original message
I think his/her point was that the SIGN
mocks people's beliefs.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
53. That is exactly my point. I don't give a rat's ass what people
believe or don't. I have plenty of friends who are atheists. It's something we don't discuss anymore than I discuss politics with my republican friends. No good comes of it and you won't change someone's mind.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
98. The sign does not mock other people's beliefs.
And more an a sign that says "Jesus died for your sins" mocks the beliefs of people who don't believe in Jesus and didn't committ any sins.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #98
134. Clearly it's a matter of opinion, but
in your example, a sign stating "Jesus died for your sins" hung in a public place would certainly be insulting to me. As it happens, the theological ideas inherent in that statement are quite different from a mere nativity scene.
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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #98
205. BOTH Signs are EQUALLY INSULTING.

I think that Nativity scenes belong on church property, but are also fitting for any private property. If someone buys space on a Billboard with the "Jesus died..", then I have to accept that someone would buy space that says "There is NO God at all."

But to put "There is NO God" next to "Merry Christmas" is just plain meanspirited.

It's like putting "A calendar is an artificial concept made up to control us." next to "Happy New Year". Or "War is Dumb and Soldiers are Dumber!" next to "Happy Veterans Day".


I do not see why anyone would lash out against the POSITIVE aspects of someone's religion. "Merry Christmas" hurts no one. I think an equally NICE atheist response might be "Peace on Earth" or just "Have a Nice Day!". A vignette of the Nativity or of Santa might be equally sided with an image of Snow blanketing trees, i.e. something natural and observable.

I'm just plain shocked at the meanspiritedness of people.

FYI: I'm agnostic.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #205
215. No, it's not meanspirited. It's telling the fundie whack jobs to stop shoving Jeezus down everyone's
throats 24/7.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #215
252. Thats not very Golden Rule of you
TheGoldenRule. Follow your name, and treat others the way that you would want to be treated.

All that this sign does is take the same position and tone that fundies take. It is being confrontational and mean spirited.

If you don't try to change the tone of the discussion, don't be surprised when the fundies fight back, nastier than ever.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #205
230. .
:applause:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
104. This is PUBLIC space ...if you want to put your Nativity in PUBLIC areas ...
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 05:17 PM by defendandprotect
the public has a right to comment.

The practice of religion is NOT dependent upon having one's Nativity

showcased on PUBLIC property ...!!!
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #104
130. Does said nativity also have signs proclaiming
that not believing makes you stupid? Or inferior? Because that is what this sign is saying. That believing makes you stupid.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #130
178. Perhaps the Nativity says everyone who doesn't believe is stupid ....
Perhaps the Nativity says Jews are stupid for not believing in Jesus --??

Perhaps the Nativity mocks goddess worshipers --??
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #178
229. You do know that Jesus was a Jew, right?
Does my snowman in the front yard mock those who don't ever get snow?

:eyes:
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #178
254. The nativity mocks no one NT
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #130
191. It is the truth.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #104
137. Overall, I agree with you...
No religious or anti-religious display belongs in a public place. Still, I don't see any reason why the anti-religious item had to 'go there' they way it does. A simple "Happy Solstice" would have been a more balanced reply to the nativity scene.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #137
180. I image Atheists "don't see any reason why the religious item had to 'go there' " ---!!!
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
50. Well, that's your myth and superstition
Kind of laughable that atheists think it's "reason," but to each his own.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. ? Did you mean to reply to me?
Because that doesn't address my post.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
52. you are welcome to believe whatever you want
just please don't mock me for my own beliefs :)
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. And just when have I done that?
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
97. I was replying to post 3
:) Sorry, not to you. I agree with you in this thread.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #97
103. The sign doesn't mock any beliefs.
It's simply an expression of their beliefs.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #103
113. Correct -- alternately, perhaps the Jewish star mocks Jesus --???
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 05:20 PM by defendandprotect
In our towns, the Nativity is joined by Santa, Frosty the Snowman.

Jewish Star of David ---and I hope in future we see the Atheist's joining us---!!!
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #113
116. According to Bill O'Reilly it does.
He's all upset that people are respecting Jews by saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

Same thing here.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #113
164. Jesus was jewish
so i see no way in which that could possibly happen :)

and I personally have nothing wrong with Santa or Frosty for that matter. They represent a far better version of Christmas than outright consumerism.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #164
170. Good to remind everyone of that -- like O'Reilly ---
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #170
184. thats just rude
seriously, wtf.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #184
189. If you're going to engage in this "war on christmas" bullshit...
get used to it.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #184
190. Maybe you forget what the Christian Crusades were about--??
or 1,100 years of the Christian Church oppressing Jews in "Jewish Ghettoes" --

barring them from employment, education, forcing them to wear "Yellow Stars" --

denying them the right to mingle in the society freely--???
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #190
233. My God. Are you serious? Christians forced the Yellow stars?
:rofl:


Oh. My. God. You cannot make this shit up.

Catholics were just persecuted during the Holocaust, too, FYI. And, last time I looked, they're Christian.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #233
242. Uh, Hitler was Roman Catholic.


Just thought you'd like to know.

Not that I think it matters.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #242
251. Right -- and here's what Hitler said about Catholic Church ....
Well, what do you really object to in my
treatment of the Jews--?
I have certainly been consistent
I am doing what the Catholic Church
has already done for fifteen centuries
The difference between the Church and me
is that I am finishing the job

Adolph Hitler

from "Confronting anti-Semitism"
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #242
255. not quite
but thanks for playing.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #255
266. Sure he was.
All the way up to the end.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #233
250. Are you saying you're unaware of this history ...
or you think Christian Crusades against Jews and Vatican's 1,100 year

oppression of Jews are funny...???
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #250
256. That was a long time ago
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 11:24 PM by hendo
and not all Christians are Catholic.

edit:
The Nazis killed hundreds of thousands. Does that mean we should continue to hold it against the Germans?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #256
262. It set precedents for torture we're still living with --
The RCC is the root of all Christianity ....

The issue is NOT "individuals" -- the issue is the church hierarchy --

And time is irrelevant --

The world still calls upon the Vatican to . . .

"Confess its Guilt and Co-Responsibility for the Jewish Holocaust in Germany."

Because they so completely saturated Europe with hatred for Jews which

made Hitler's "Final Solution" possible --
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #97
110. That's what I thought, hence my question.
:hi:

Check your PM in a few.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. It is a religious spectrum statement and as long as the government...
provides an opportunity for one expression in the spectrum, it must give a place for all expression. We didn't start this fire, though we didn't light it, we tried to fight it.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. That's crap and you know it.
Atheism is the absence of belief and atheists and their mocking of those who are people of faith does nothing to further the dialogue and provide inclusion.

That sign is outrageous. Wishing someone a happy solstice is not the same as deriding someone's beliefs.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. All the more reason for total neutrality in the public sphere.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
43. I actually agree with you, but as long as there is an expression of that...
it should include all religious expressions.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #43
128. ...and NON-religious statements ....
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. Secularism is the lack of a religious spectrum statement...
atheism is a religious spectrum statement. If we don't put in God we trust on our money, that's different from saying "God doesn't exist, so we can't trust him."

The latter is a religious spectrum statement that denies the existence of God.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
136. It probably isnt supposed to be inclusive. And I don't have a problem with that...

... given that, in my view, any good that Christianity has supposedly ever done over the centuries can be quite happily explained in terms of ordinary human nature and the bad it does is very obviously concomitant on the particulars of the traditional Christian belief structure.

Simply put, why should I include Christians in any dialogue about morality or beliefs about what the world is or what its for when their motivation for involving themselves in a discussion of the same with me will always be the deletion of my belief system in order to replace it with theirs regardless of what my belief system actually is? What's the point in "including" Christians in a dialogue that they seek only to turn into a monologue, their *own* monologue?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
117. Exactly, it's PUBLIC space --
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. In what way does this rather restrained sign
insult anybody's beliefs?

Is telling them that other people don't agree with them always insulting?

Is their faith that weak that they can't abide knowing the rest of us exist?

Christians are such fucking victims. Protecting them from the knowledge that atheists/humanists exist is not going to help them get over that sort of mentality.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Yeah, right.
There is no God. There are no angels, blah, blah, blah.

That's not mocking, though, right? It's a very deliberate dialogue designed to convince someone otherwise. Puleez.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Nope, statement of fact.
Of course, we'll change their minds as soon as proof is supplied.

Oh, right.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. Actually, it's a statement of fact as can best be determined.
I'd hardly call that mocking.
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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
76. Angels...
...Personally, I am always amused when people mention Angels - as if they are these glowing, loving entities that keep us safe from traffic accidents and high interest rates.

The bible (in revelations) mentions that 'even in heaven, the angels carry savage weapons'. Angels are god's little Blackwater. They descend from heaven when god needs to mete out punishment and death. I always thought that god was sort of a wimp for farming out his dirty work and casting out Lucifer when he disagreed with god.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #76
121. That's the kind of education we need to see more of --
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
120. And what is the Nativity intended to convince people of --???
Perhaps the Nativity mocks Jewish beliefs?
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Ava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. and the fact that atheists have no proof that god doesn't exist
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 04:41 PM by Ava
requires a little bit of "faith" on their part to believe that god doesn't exist. so why criticize others for having faith that something does exist?

the debate is first of all pointless and stupid.. but also shows the close-mindedness of both sides of the argument.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. The definitive
You're stupid if you're a person of faith is what pisses me off. Last time I looked there were some mighty stupid atheists. Plenty of them, in fact.

It's not a matter of intellect, because neither can be 'proven'. It's a question of faith versus desire not to have faith.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. I don't have any proof Santa Claus doesn't exist.
Does that mean people who don't think Santa Claus exists are on equal footing with people who do?
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
62. Yes
belief in Santa Claus is a good thing to maintain. Whats wrong with selfless giving and kindness?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. Is "faith"also required to believe that fire-breathing dragons do not exist?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Eksess Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
42. you do realize you ask for the impossible?
It's impossible to prove a negative. You could never once in a million years prove an invisible pink unicorn isn't standing right behind you. The lack of something isn't proved, can't be proved, and any effort to try is wasted. Outrageous claims on the other hand either get proved, or are ignored, like your invisible pink buddy behind you.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #42
59. Yeah!!! Another invisible pink buddy reference.
:thumbsup:

:eyes:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #59
146. Stop mocking people who believe in invisible pink buddies.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #42
105. Except
How can something invisible have the attribute of color?

Other than that, spot on and welcome to DU.

-Hoot
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #105
145. How can God make a stone so heavy he can't life it?
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #145
248. Fuck that...
Who created Gawd?

-Hoot
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
66. If there was some evidence god does exist, that would be a problem.
But since there isn't... There's nothing to believe about.
Let me put it another way, do these two statements mean the same thing to you?

I believe god does not exist.
I do not believe god exists.

They shouldn't. The former is a positive statement of belief. The latter, disbelief. Almost identical words, different burden of proof.
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amdezurik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
87. the 'critiziing' comes from how often
your "belief" has been enforced at the end of a gun, or a firey pyre, or simply beating others into submission. That is for all religions.
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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
88. Why is god special???
Why does not believing in him require a 'faith' when no one gives me shit when I say that I do not believe in Unicorns and Pots of Gold at the end of Rainbows?

What is it about this imaginary being that makes logical assumptions about the lack his existence seem like 'faith'?

Sorry...that 'faith' crap is silly. You may have faith in god, but I have faith in me. Maybe the FSM...

But I guess when arguing with a logical point when you do not have one...you have to go somewhere...
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
112. NO, it doesn't.

Your position is bizarre to atheists. I don't need "faith" to "believe" that there isn't a God. If we were talking about anything else that didn't exist, like telepathic extra dimensional chickens I wouldn't need "faith" to "believe" they don't exist. Why should have I have a seperate way of thinking about other things that patently don't exist?

You're *projecting*. Atheism's nothing like a religion.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
131. You can't prove a negative ---
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 05:30 PM by defendandprotect
But neither can you prove any "gods" exist ---
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #131
159. Oh for... not this again. It's VERY VERY easy to prove a negative.
3/4ths of the proofs in Euclid's "Elements" are proofs of a negative. It's one of the easiest kinds of proof to do. Where did the ridiculous idea that you can't prove a negative come from?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #159
168. OK ...there's no "god" ...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Ava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. wow, that's not closed minded or a repressive view at all
"it must be wiped out of existence"

wow, man.. you're really soooooooo much better than those fundies :sarcasm:
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Consider the source.
I had to hit printer view to read some of these replies. I wonder why. :eyes:
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Because your mind is closed. Self closed.
Pray on, sugar.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. Why do you insist that one open ones mind to silly fables?
That makes no sense at all.
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Ava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
49. i insist that one open ones mind to people to believe whatever the hell they want to believe
because that's what religious freedom is. wiping religion "out of existence" couldn't be any further from religious freedom.

i've made my point, and it's clear it isn't sinking in. i didn't really expect it to though.

have a nice day :hi:
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
60. That would be fine, if religion was kept out of ALL government, everywhere.
Off my coins, out of my courthouses, out of my schools, out of my parks, off my f'n back.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
72. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
118. Actually, let's turn that on its head.

Supposing *you* are being close-minded about the possibility that religion is, in fact, a mental disease?

If you're against repression and close-mindedness, shouldn't *you* be open to the concept that religion could in fact be just a really really bad idea?
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Ava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #118
127. has religion been proven to be a mental disease?
nope.

to say that religion "must be wiped out of existence" was stepping over the line. i would think that anyone who believes in religious freedom would agree that it was over the line.

and i'm open to the belief by some that religion is a bad idea.. they don't have to be religious.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #127
213. Has schizophrenia been proven to be a mental disease?

I'd like to see the math, if it has.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #213
259. According to the DSM IV it is.
It is a clinical diagnosis, believing in a god is not.
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
212. Smug is smug
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 06:34 PM by ProudToBeBlueInRhody
That's why these two sides are so drawn to one another, they feed off each other's smugness about their beliefs.

I don't know which I'd enjoy observing more if such a thing was possible......watching the smug Christian find out there's nothing after this or watching the smug atheist realize there is.
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Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #212
245. My thoughts on this as well.
Im spiritual in my own way but I firmly side with the more secular/atheist on this issue ( I think.. labels getting so muddied these days and all), but holy cow the people here who are speaking for that area of the issue are just freaking mean and rude. Smug, as you said.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Here's the difference?
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 04:45 PM by stopbush
Are you saying that Xians can prove that something doesn't exist?

Look, faith is THE most overrated commodity in the world these days, and religious faith is the CHEAPEST faith commodity going. It takes nothing to believe in gods. Nothing except the willing suspension of disbelief. That disbelief is healthy, innate and honest. Ignoring the disbelief is a practiced delusion in most, an indoctrinated sickness in a few.

You're welcome to put you faith in Thor or Zeus, just don't try to tell the rest of us that there is a shred of demonstrated truth to your beliefs, and don't you even think of basing societal rules for the rest of us on your myths.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
47. Wait wait wait... did you seriously say that?
"Atheists can't prove that something doesn't exist."

Of course they can't, because you can't prove a negative. However, that is not what Atheists do. Atheists note the lack of evidence for a deity and state that due to such lack of evidence, they're going to live their lives under the assumption there is no such being.

The burden of proof falls on those making a positive claim, not on those saying "well, there's no proof." Wear your logic hat next time.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
80. but they should not
mock and belittle people for their beliefs.

Doing that is no better than the fundies mocking and belittling non-christians.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #80
139. When religious articles are posted in PUBLIC areas the public has the right to comment --
Religion is a private belief --

No one's practice of their religion is dependent upon having their Nativity

showcased in public areas--
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #139
155. a right to comment sure
but what exactly is it about a nativity scene that offends you?

I mean if you dont believe what it is set up for, then you can look at all the pretty lights :) Or you can laugh to yourself that there are still those of us who believe in Christianity.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #155
167. The Atheist sign is comment --
No Nativity offends me -- UNLESS IT'S ON PULIC PROPERTY --

If we want to display PRIVATE beliefs on public property then all beliefs

and non-beliefs must be displayed --

Btw, what's wrong with displaying your religious stuff on church property--???
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #167
183. nothing is wrong
with displaying religious stuff on church property.

All beliefs can be displayed, of which atheism is one. However, is there an atheist equivalent of christmas? no. Is there a buddhist equivalent of christmas? no. Is there a muslim equivalent of christmas? no?

The winter holidays and their respective religions are:

Winter Solstice - pagan
Christmas - Christian
Hanukkah - Jewish
Kwanzaa - not really religious, but still a winter holiday.

Those are the winter holidays. If Atheism wants to create a holiday to celebrate at Christmas time that would be one thing. As it is they are merely attacking the current holidays.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #183
192. You're grasping at straws now.
Christianity doesn't own the winter months and there should be no special treatment for them.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #183
211. Well, why aren't the Nativities on Church property then ...???
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 06:35 PM by defendandprotect
Actually, the roots of Christmas are PAGAN --

The Christian Church couldn't get the pagans to give us the joyous celebrations,

so the church stole the holiday --

Same for "Easter" ...it's a Pagan celebration of fertility -- the egg is all--!!

All of the celebrations you will come to find are based on Nature --

the basis of the "Old Religion" -- i.e., Winter Solstice, Spring Equinox, Summer Solstice,

Autumn Equinox...

And I would say that in the belief in Nature, Pagans have the first call on all the

celebrations ---




SOLSTICE
SUMMER SOLSTICE: The first day of the Season of Summer. On this day (JUNE 21 in the northern hemisphere*) the Sun is farthest north and the length of time between Sunrise and Sunset is the longest of the year.

WINTER SOLSTICE: The first day of the Season of Winter. On this day (DECEMBER 22 in the northern hemisphere*) the Sun is farthest south and the length of time between Sunrise and Sunset is the shortest of the year.
* In the southern hemisphere, winter and summer solstices are exchanged. Summer: December 22. Winter: June 21.


EQUINOX
Two times of the year when night and day are about the same length. The Sun is crossing the Equator (an imaginary line around the middle of the Earth) and it is an equal distance from the North Pole and the South Pole.
SPRING EQUINOX: The first day of the Season of Spring - and the beginning of a long period of sunlight at the Pole. In the northern hemisphere: MARCH 20 (the Sun crosses the Equator moving northward). In the southern hemisphere: SEPTEMBER 22 (the Sun crosses the Equator moving southward).

AUTUMN EQUINOX: The first day of the Season of Autumn - and the beginning of a long period of darkness at the Pole. In the northern hemisphere: SEPTEMBER 22 (the Sun crosses the Equator moving southward). In the southern hemisphere: MARCH 20 (the Sun crosses the Equator moving northward).




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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #211
260. I am well aware
that Christmas and Easter were moved to get conversions. Even the "Old Religions" had thier gods. They were still deists.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #183
263. Winter solstice
is not a pagan religious celebration. Though pagans or wiccans may celebrate during solstice, it exists as an astronomical phenomenon not a culturally created event.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
94. Wear yours. Your comprehension skills suck.
Proof versus faith.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #94
185. Your "comprehension" requires "faith".
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
91. When you feel entitled to put your relgious articles on display ...
in PUBLIC areas, then the PUBLIC is entitled to respond.

Religion is a private belief system -- and the practice of anyone's religion

is NOT dependent upon showcasing nativity scenes on public property.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
101. This just ridiculous, atheists "can't prove" something doesn't exist?

What else in the universe is assumed to exist because someone cant prove that it doesn't?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
207. Your own "doubts" are apparent.
Explore them further, the truth is there.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
214. I don't recall ever shitting on a believer.
But stating clearly that there are no gods is a legitimate expression.

Those who believe in divine, supernatural deities are the ones making extreme claims. The burden of proof is on them. Until there is proof, religion remains just a divisive, corrosive set of superstitions.
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Ava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. oh cute little atheists who are just as closed minded as the fundamentalists they criticize
do i think the sign should be taken down? no.. they have the right to have it up, and i'll support that right.

however...

were they trying to do anything OTHER than piss off religious people? nope.
are they going to convince religious people of anything by pissing them off? nope.
was there a point to such a sign other than publicity? nope.

why bother? the closed mindedness of so many atheists towards religious people is just as wrong and close minded as the fundie view of atheism. both sides in the argument need to take chill pills. one of the great things about living in a country with religious freedom is that so many people have so many different religious views and beliefs, but both fundies and atheists have a tendancy to try to pressure their own beliefs on others.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. You mean we're supposed to shut up and stay in hiding
so the poor, victimized Christians can go on assuming everybody in the world believes the same stuff they do?

Forget it. That hasn't worked.

We're out here. We have a right to be here. We don't believe a word of it, but that doesn't have anything to do with you. Deal.
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Ava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. nope, i'm not saying that
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 04:47 PM by Ava
i'm saying that you using their tactics for your own message is just as bad as them using it for theirs... so don't think of yourself as ANY better than them.

both sides are seriously fucked up about it.

me, i don't give a damn who believes what. however, assholery is assholery.. and that's what this was.

was it legal? yup
was it effective? well if the organization wanted to piss off a lot of people, then yeah. if they actually wanted to get a message through, then no.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Of course they're going to piss people off
It's time to piss some of them off. Others who are doubters will feel a little more confident that nothing is wrong with them for being doubters.

That's what this is about.
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Ava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. ok, so you want to piss them off to accomplish what exactly?
what does pissing off people accomplish?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. Read the whole post.
Thank you.
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Ava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #45
56. i did
please answer my question

thank you.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #38
123. Gay pride parades generally piss off homophobes.
I don't know what they accomplish, but I'm still glad they piss off homophobes.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #123
141. Feminists piss off patriarchy ...
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #141
148. All of the above piss off Bill O'Reilly.
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 05:45 PM by Bornaginhooligan
You'd think people would wise up and stop acting like Bill O'Reilly.
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liberal1973 Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #148
217. Billo O'Reilly is a POS
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. Excellent post, Ava.
:thumbsup:
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
41. If it pisses people off to have something ANTI-religious in The Public Square...
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 04:52 PM by IanDB1
... then maybe they'll get the hint and take down all their pro-religion crap?

Maybe they will learn what it means to have your religious sensibilities offended by a display sponsored by what is supposed to be our secular government.

If they let THEIR camel in the tent, they have to let Everyone's camel in the tent.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
65. Hey, if you want to put up a display celebrating the winter solstice
have at it. But this display mocks religion. It's designed solely to get a rise out of people. It's not designed to further discourse or push the country further towards secularism.

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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Too fucking bad. Get over it. Boo hoo for you. n/t
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #67
74. Wow.
I take back what I said to you a while back. You're not who I thought you were. You're kind of a baby.

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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. My point is you have nothing try cry and whine about. n/t
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #67
85. wow
thats so. just damn.

is that really your argument for your position?
"if you dont like it, too fucking bad"?

How mature.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #85
106. Pretty much, yeah. When there's a serious argument, there will be a serious response. n/t
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #65
82. i absoluteley agree with you.
mockign religion and religious people will not help our cause, especially the Democratic ideas and ideals. Let's all remember that our new President Elect is a Christian and believes everyone should have the right to preach and not preach our beliefs or non. It is the power of "democracy", however, makign fun of religion will not help continuing this precious democracy
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #82
108. Thank you
someone else who gets it.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #65
122. Nativity scenes "mock" reality.
They are also designed to get a "rise" out of people.Are you contending that they are designed to "push the country further towards" christianity?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #65
143. Or...religion mocks atheism ...and agnosticism,,,?
Maybe the Jewish Star mocks the Nativity ... and vice versa --???
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
100. Oh what the HELL!
I think that religious people are delusional.

I have many family members and friends who are religious,
I love them NO LESS.

Hope is legitimate, faith is delusional.

Functional, but delusional.

JUST AS delusional as people who read auras
and those who choose their mates based on
astrological signs. Or believe in fairies
or leprechauns or Elysian fields.

That is what I believe.

Religious people flaunt their beliefs every day.
Why is wearing a cross AOK, but wearing an American
Atheist Symbol a "slap in the face"?

We are just as proud being freethinkers as you are
of your dogma.

What do you WANT from us?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #100
135. Well said.
:toast:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #100
144. Lovely --!!
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #100
163. AMEN (irony intended)
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
161. It's not about being BETTER THAN THEM.

This is where this discussion alway fucks up. Atheists aren't interested in whether or not atheism makes them better people.

Christianity is about establishing what in their lives is good or bad.

Atheism is about establishing what in the Universe is *true* or *false*.

The two aren't comparable, they have emerged as the answers to two entirely seperate and not entirely well related questions, so when one side uses the same way of communicating as the other it does NOT mean the same thing.
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Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #161
246. I wish everyone would post with such eloquence.
Thank you.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #161
253. Certainly Atheists not only judge true/false but also good/bad ...
as well as logical/illogical and all other questions --

However, Atheism is based on free thought and reasoning --

while a religious belief system is based on what priests tell

them must be believed --

If there is a "Creator" then relgious followers should surmise

that their "Creator" gave EVERYONE an individual conscience and

ability to think freely -- and expects you to use those gifts --

i.e., their "Creator" isn't a fascist --!!
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. To reject silly fables is not "close-minded", it is pragmatic.
The truth is the truth, fables are fables, nothing more.
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Ava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. alrighty
it isn't worth arguing over... thanks for proving my point about close-mindedness being on both sides of the aisle though.

have a nice day :hi:
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. Again, the truth has no side.
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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
63. That is some ridiculous reaching you do trying to equate atheists with fundamentalists
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 04:58 PM by GreenJ
"both fundies and atheists have a tendency to try to pressure their own beliefs on others" Really? How many atheists come knocking on your door preaching the wonders of living within reality? How many times have atheists tried to force their beliefs on others through laws? How many fundamentalists hide their religion at work? How many atheists hide the fact that they are atheist at work or even with family?
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. Why hide it? Are you ashamed of being an atheist?
Last I looked, atheists weren't denied their civil rights like the GLBT community. Why hide it?
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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. I don't hide it. I know atheists who do. People have been fired for it.
I've had it cause minor problems at work and I live in Connecticut. People are also made outcasts in there family because of it or endlessly harassed to believe.

A recent study showed that less than half of the country would vote for an atheist. It was a lower percentage than those that would vote for a gay candidate.

It's nice of you to blame the victims though.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #75
90. I lived in CT for 30 years and have never heard of any one of
my friends being subjected to what you describe, so you will forgive me if I take it with a grain of salt.

And, the reason that people wouldn't vote for an atheist is that the majority of the country are believers.
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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #90
175. "the reason that people wouldn't vote for an atheist is that the majority of the country are
believers" So this bigotry is OK with you? So someone saying they wouldn't vote for Obama because that person is white is OK with you?

I didn't say that it was that bad in Connecticut. If you paid attention to what I wrote you'd realize I was implying things weren't as bad even in a state like Connecticut. Being an atheist is still problematic here. The firings of people I've known were in other states.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #175
238. You referenced CT, genius, not me.
Bigotry? Get over yourself. Show me some actual evidence where an atheist has been discriminated against along the lines of the GLBT community or the minorities in this country. Oh, right. They don't exist. There is not institutionalized atheist rejection like racism or homophobia. I've known many, many atheists and agnostics over my lifetime. NOT ONE feels the need to hide the way you do.

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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #238
241. Wow. Reading comprehension really isn't your friend.
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 07:42 PM by GreenJ
What part of "I don't hide it" is to much for you? It is also rather disgusting that you blame the people that are forced to hide. Nice republican attitude.

It is on a number of state constitutions that athiests cannot run for office. Read about the harasment that atheist go through in the military. How many atheists have been elected to the congress? How about the study I mentioned earlier?

Stop trying to fucking divide people and compare bigotries. Obviously you can't see past your own. Bye.
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #90
240. "There's something deeply wrong with putting the rights of a minority up to a majority vote"

And, the reason that people wouldn't vote for an atheist is that the majority of the country are believers.


"There's something deeply wrong with putting the rights of a minority up to a majority vote" - Evan Wolfson, on Prop 8.

Isn't it interesting that we have an African American President before we've had an (openly) atheist POTUS...

Too bad the US has less religious tolerance than the country that birthed us.

And maybe we as a country would be doing better in the sciences compared to the rest of the world, if religion wasn't the dominating force that it is now.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #90
244. My SO's whole family have decided to ignore us because we are agnostic, my
mother in law even verbally attacked me in my own home after I invited her for dinner, because she said I was making her have to pay more because of my beliefs. Pay more what I have no idea, but she literally stood up at my dinner table and berated my daughter and I because we challenged her, for judging us and she totally lost it. She started screaming, crying and said she'd never set foot in my house again, simply because we asked her if judging us was a christian thing to do. Now tell me how I was wrong.This happened over a year ago and we haven't spoken to each other since.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #69
84. Ever lost family members or friends because you're an atheist?
Been shunned for not believing?
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #84
92. No. And, I've never heard of one, either.
Not. One.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. I have lost family members and been shunned.
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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #96
194. I'm sorry you went through that
:hi:
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #194
235. Thank you, GreenJ.
:hi:
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #92
247. See reply #244
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 09:09 PM by madmom
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Jokerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #69
265. Then you haven't looked very hard.
Several states still have laws on the books to prevent non-believers from holding office.

Atheists who "come out" have lost jobs, friends and family members.

Don't try to tell me it doesn't happen, I have first hand experience.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
172. Thank You Ava : )
:)
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. Infantile.
If people think self-righteousness, pettiness, and drama exist only on one side, here is their answer.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Thank you.
I don't believe in Santa, but I don't see the need to proclaim it from the rooftops. If you don't believe, you don't believe. Personally, I don't care WHAT you believe.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. I care that you inject this 'Christmas' stuff into Government Buildings.
It doesn't belong there. Period. Don't you already have a crapload of tax-exempt private property you can put these religious displays on?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. I have absolutely nothing against the Pagan stuff
like the tree with lights on it, the wreaths, the holly, and so forth. That's secular Christmas and I know a lot of non Christians who love celebrating it, especially for their kids.

I do have a problem with crosses and creches. Those belong with the churches.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
58. Or on the giant Jesus Blimp.
Oh, shit.

I may have just given them an idea.
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #40
109. i love crosses..they are really cool, i mean, i have seen some
at some stores for home decorative purposes.. some crosses come in many stones and colors and makes the house look really nice... just like the peace sign and israeli signs.. love to buy them all!!

: ))
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
54. They even use plains to advertise Jesus in the fucking SKY over Disney World.
Do they really NEED a display at Town Hall?
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liberal1973 Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #54
199. LoL...
So much for the poor or homeless.

Hey lets buy radio stations and air advertising.

:evilgrin:
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #199
206. Ugh... I said plains instead of planes. n/t
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
79. Christmas has become highly secular
Do you have a problem with Santa or Christmas trees? Neither are Christian.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #79
187. That might be an interesting discussion
but we are talking about a nativity scene.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #79
222. Nativity scenes are NOT secular.
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Ava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. exactly
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
44. Truth has no "side". That is only in your "washed" brain.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
16. Naivety??? They are naive, is that what you're saying?
The word you are looking for is "nativity", as in "birth".

Nativity scene.

:banghead:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. The Bill O'Reilly's of the world who are upset at the sign...
They're plenty naive.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Well, some of us who stopped believing in Santa...
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 04:48 PM by originalpckelly
also realized that there's not much difference from that crock of crap and the entire Bible.

Then again, maybe you'd have a different idea of the Bible if it said you had to be stoned to death for living a fulfilled life.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
37. the spaghetti monster has no holidays
and the winter solstice is tied to many religious around the world.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Can't I make a Jesus out of fusilli?
"A million to one shot doc, a million to one shot!"
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
64. I am christian, and a Democrat.. we are more than what you all
think we are. Don't reject us because we have our beliefs.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. Just keep your beliefs out of my government.
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #68
78. that's fine. I am a firm believer of separation of church and
state. This country is great because we have the freedom of having different religions as well as the freedom for atheists and other non-belivers to have the right to. What we must not do impose our beliefs or non-belief in others. Like that guy is trying to do wth that sign and like what atheists are doing to fight it.

Can't we all just get along?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #78
86. The sign can come down when the baby jeesus does.
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #86
99. I am a christian and have reported christian churches to the
IRS when i have seen them taking a political stand. As a matter of fact, on election day i saw a baptist church while driving that a McCain Palin sign outisde their premises, I took a picture of the sign, picture of church and went straight to the church's office and challenged them to take the sign off, otherwise they would be reported to the IRS with my pictures which i showed to the lady in the office.

and, I am a christian. That sign is disrespectful and those people will be categorized as Extremest leftists, which are all lumped into the Democratic Party. - This is how Republicans have been winning elections. Dividing the country.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #99
111. That sign is no more "disrespectful" than a nativity scene.
Everything is not about winning elections. Religion, as a whole, is a BAD thing in human-kind. It's demise would be an evolutionary triumph.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #99
158. ... or the Nativity on PUBLIC property is disrespectful ...
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #86
153. "It's ok plastic baby Jesus, you can come down, we all love you!"
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #153
156. Speak for your self.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #78
231. Wow, how can you talk about the sign in your brother's eye
when there are thousands of signs in your own? The religious folk of this world ought to head the words of their chosen masters, and look to themselves, clean their own damn houses. Organized religious thugs revoking rights from people they do not even know, and you think it is somehow a righteous thing to be talking about how disrespectful one sign is?

How about the signs carried by your fellow in faith, Fred Phelps?

I see thousands of you religionists lined up with signs saying my family is not a family, those sir, are your people, yours to deal with. What did that one tiny sign do that so bends you? Let me know when hordes of heathen come after your freaking rights.


Clean your own house, religionists. The smugness and sanctimony is outrageous. The very idea of taking issue with the actions of others, when your own church is so very apostate, is chilling. Whining about one sign when your own people have raised thousands of vicious signs aimed directly at good people is hypocrisy of biblical proportions.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #231
257.  "What did that one tiny sign do that so bends you?"....
Excellent question ....

IMO, the religions have always fdeflected challenge by making it "illega" --

At one time in Italy, you could be arrested for laughing at a priest in

the street--!!

Organized patriarchal religion understands their myth is like a mirror --

if anyone gets close enough to throw a pebble at it the myth will completely

shatter --
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #64
142. No, we reject the idea that your beliefs are fact based, that's all.
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 05:44 PM by stopbush
As an American, I fully support your right to believe whatever you want, but that doesn't mean that I must treat those beliefs as being true. For example, I can respect the right of an American to be a Republican, but when Republicans assert that trickle-down economics is the best policy for the country nobody expects me to say, "well, I guess there must be some truth to what you're saying about trickle down theory as you believe it so fervently." No, people expect me to say, "that's BS, and the proof that it's BS are the failed economies trickle down theory has left in its path over the years."

So, if you bring it up, I defend your right to do so, just as I know that you defend my right to say, "that belief is pure BS."

That's all there is to it. It's really much simpler than you imagine. It's also much more benign than you probably wish to admit. It's hard for religionists to come to grips with the fact that the irreligious don't find the question of god's existence to be earth shattering or deep, but, rather, on the level of a child's fairy tale.

Perhaps that's what upsets the religionists so deeply when confronted with non-believers.
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RubyDuby in GA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
70. I will agree with Ava that people on both sides need to take some chill pills
As an atheist, I don't care if someone wants to worship God, Allah, Buddha, Krishna or a green monkey named Joe, but - and this is what the Christians of the world by their very faith don't ever get - your right to worship said deity ends where my right to not worship begins. The very nature of Christianity proclaims that those of the Christian faith must go out and proselytize their faith or to always be "recruiting". It is unfortunate that the Religious Right has hijacked your religion and turned it into an instrument that is continually being shoved down people's throats - and I would wager here in the "Bible Belt" more so than other places, but by your attempts to always be converting what you deem as lost souls, you are infringing on others rights to not have to believe in something they don't.

For people to be upset that this sign has been placed there where it is constitutionally protected and has every right to be there just as much as a christmas tree or a menorah is just stupid and shows me what close-minded really is. You don't like what it says, then don't read it. You don't like what it represents, then pray to your god that much harder. But don't get upset that everyone doesn't think like you.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
73. I refuse
to eat naivety, it hurts my teeth.
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HillWilliam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
81. More cowbell! n/t
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Creationismsucks Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
83. What am I missing here?
If the state is going to allow for any such speech (like christmas trees, etc.) shouldn't it be allowing all such speech? I mean if someone shows up tomorrow and wants to put up their sign for a church run by aliens, does anyone have the right to muzzle anyone else? Isn't this just a basic free speech case? Isn't it the case that those who don't agree with the sign are free to ignore it?

Do we now only protect speech for some viewpoints and not others?

If so, it's a funny crop of free speech we're growing this year...
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moriah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
132. Where's Mr. Hankey???
I really like South Park's take on the whole thing.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103771/

If we try to keep from offending anybody, we offend everybody.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
157. Naivete scenes is right!
All over the mideast there were tall tales of heroes whose mother was impregnated by a god, and then she gave birth to a god-man. Of course, the only one celebrated is the one we hear about.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #157
162. Hercules!!
Oh, never mind....
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #162
166. Horus.
Born of a virgin, son of a god, visited by three wise men.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #166
179. Mithra, Buddha, Krishna, Attis, Quetzalcoatl to name a few others.
The history books are full of such mythologies.

Oh, but THIS ONE is real!!
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #157
200. Actually Christian mythology is almost a carbon copy of the Mithras legend. NT.

But not many people know that. And it's difficult to explain it to them. They get annoyed.
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Sal Minella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #200
219. And they get REALLY annoyed when you explain that the Mithras story was around LONG before the
Jesus story.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #200
221. Yes, it is.
And both stories are connected to the stars, to stories told to describe the annual trip of the moon, the stars and the sun.

Indeed, the "sun" did walk on the water, as it does when it is reflected off the surface of water in the early morning, when the sun is low in the sky.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #221
258. Wonderful ....
excellent reminders of the many before with same histories --

virgin births, etal --

nd the play on sun/son --
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UnrepentantUnitarian Donating Member (887 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
160. What bothers me...endlessly...
is the very notion that some people have that theirs is "the standard" by which all other faiths or "ultimate belief" should be measured. But, who gives them that right? That's a problem we have here in the South quite a bit, usually the fundamentalist Baptists (by their sheer numbers) try to set themselves up as the gatekeepers-- the"default arbitors"-- of what is ultimate truth and goodness. I've had this argument with these folks many times over the years, but they seldom if ever learn. They like to play the "majority rule" card, which they should know (if true to the roots of their own tradition) does not apply to matters of conscience.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #160
169. "Revealed Truth"
It causes all KINDS of trouble.
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
165. It's much more sensible to believe in God
Atheists will never have the satisfaction of knowing they were right, but believers might.

And nativity scenes and Christmas trees are *much* more visually appealing than that boring grinchy old sign. Couldn't they at least have surrounded it by flashing red and green lights and adorned it with glitter?

Perhaps that miserable guy would cheer up a bit if a little drummer boy played for him. Tis the season to be jolly, after all.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #165
171. And alcoholics are happier when they're drunk.
Was there a point to your post?
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #171
176. Yes! I was hoping to get a response!
And I did! Merry Christmas!
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #176
193. Happy Holidays Bro!
Have a great New Year!
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #193
201. Thanks! You too! (nt)
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #165
173. Oh, please, not Pascal's Wager again...
As Charles Seife once noted, "Certainly Pascal knew which way to wager, even though he gave up mathematics to win his bet."
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #173
188. I would love to be behind Richard Dawkins in line at the Pearly Gates
waiting to be processed by Saint Peter.

It would really take the sting out of dying.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #188
196. Meh.
Good luck explaining Pascal's Wager to Thor.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #165
174. Yes, fake plastic Jesus made in atheist communist China.
Very pretty.
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #174
186. I *like* my fake plastic Jesus
along with my fake plastic Mary, Joseph, three Wise Men, shepherd boy, two lambs, ox and ass.

And I am always a bit sad every year when I put them away around January 25th.
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mr blur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #165
177. Absolte nonsense! Grow up (nt)
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #177
181. Sorry.
Christmas kind of brings out the kid in me. And I find that pompous looking atheist guy pontificating about his sign kind of amusing.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #165
182. "Tis the season to be jolly, after all. "
You know, the guy who put up the sign doesn't strike me as the Scrooge in this story.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #182
203. Only those with "doubts" would be offended.
They should further explore those doubts.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #165
197. Only in a Universe not ruled by a God that punishes people for believing in him.

Pascal's wager only fits one kind of God. Given the scale of the phenomenon being postulated by Christianity, who could begin to speculate on it's true features? What if believing in God somehow cancels him out as if by magic? Silly? Can you prove it's sillier than just believing in God in the first place?
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #197
209. Hmmmm. That's a bit deep for me.
But I really like "Oh Little Town of Bethlehem" and "Silent Night", and I don't think atheism has anything to compete with them. Come on atheists, write some nice atheist carols and then I might reconsider.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #209
236. "Oh little gas giant of Beeetelgeuuse...

... how sweet your magnetic field..."
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #209
249. Let It Snow is a charming ditty
Pretend an atheist wrote it :)
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
198. Hey! I saw that guy celebrating Christmas! Link here

http://elfyourself.jibjab.com/view/b5J4C4QtqiE84p0N
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
218. I am so happy to see people standing up to the fundie whack jobs!
:bounce:
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
220. Christmas ...the sport of repukes and religious nut bags.
Succumb to the will of corporate commercial advertisement and run up your charge card and do it every year because they own your mind and your kids minds.
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
223. ...and the point of your OP is what exactly?
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 06:45 PM by bobbiejo
I mean beyond inciting yet another attention seeking dog-pile thread. :shrug:

:eyes:
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #223
234. Hammer meet nail.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
226. While I think that they are being rather dickish, they have a right to do that.
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 06:47 PM by anonymous171
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
232. I completely agree that they had a right to put up a sign, but actually doing so is pretty lame
If public property is opened up to people celebrating their beliefs in a positive way, nobody is harmed (not by any reasonable measure, at least). I'm perfectly fine with all sorts of uses of public property, so long as access is equally granted and the public purpose of the property is not interfered with. Religious displays seem acceptable, as long as they are non-intrusive and every faith is able to participate (and participate throughout the year - not just in December).

In this case, however, the atheist display isn't about celebrating, it's about criticizing those who are celebrating. They're expressing a valid viewpoint (one I subscribe to), but there are more appropriate venues for that particular discussion.

At the very least the message could have been better chosen - the last sentence in particular is just a slap at religious people, and strikes me as really unnecessary.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #232
261. Why do you miss seeing that the religious showcasing....

may be "lame" -- i.e., the quest to reach other than their members --

otherwise the Nativity would be on church property--?

It's basically a Christian advertisement for their religion --

It's a statement of their "beliefs" --

And the Atheist sign is a statement of theirs ...


And, certainly Atheists are "celebrating" free thought and free conscience --

and very likely the changing season/New Year --
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
237. Was that a typo or on porpose?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #237
239. ..
:think:
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #237
243. Typo on a porpoise?

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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:31 AM
Response to Original message
264. Well on one hand I'm not Christian but on the other I would be
reluctant to tell Tiny Tim that he's full of shit.
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