"I recall you wouldn't allow the word atheist to mean someone who denies God, only as one who lacks belief in God."The original thread was started by Zhade who was sick and tired of being told what kind of beliefs he had or didn't:
Zhade (1000+ posts) Mon Oct-17-05 05:37 AM
Original message
Atheists who do not claim there is no god do not have an "atheist faith".
(This is predicated by a response in another thread, but I feel my larger point should be repeated in a thread of its own. As this is not intended as a 'revenge thread', I will not name the other thread or poster to which I refer.)
It has been repeatedly noted that some believers here on DU refuse to allow atheists to define themselves. For example, when told that we "do not believe in god", some believers will insist on saying we atheists "have faith there is no god".
This is highly insulting, and I will tell you why - you will discover the reason is not what you may assume.
See, it is not that we are told we "have faith" that is insulting to us. I have faith in lots of things - the love of my friends and family, that the sun will rise tomorrow, that I will always like pickled products unless they are meat-based. In other words, I, an atheist, don't feel offended when the f-word is used around me.
I do, however, take offense when I am characterized in a fashion that is not reflective of who I really am. That's what happens when a believer insists I "have faith god doesn't exist".
Want to know why? It's really quite simple, but easy to miss: it offends me when people put words in my mouth.
Saying that I have faith god doesn't exist, instead of accepting my honest statement that I don't believe in things - including gods - for which there is no evidence, paints me as having argued that there is evidence god doesn't exist.
I have never made that argument. Why? Because I am honest (and sane!) enough to admit that it is impossible for me to know all knowledge in the universe. Or, if we discover they exist, universes! We may very well one day uncover evidence that a god or gods exist somewhere in our universe, who knows?
However, as there is none to date, I don't believe in unproven gods any more than I eagerly await the Easter Bunny on that special Egg-Day.
If I made the affirmative statement "there is no god", I would be making a statement that I could not back up, and it truly would be a faith-based statement, because I would be making an argument for which I could not produce evidence.
I don't, and never would, say that. So when a believer insists that I have faith god doesn't exist, s/he puts words in my mouth I never uttered and assigns me a debate position I never would enter into on my own.
It is similar to how Fox News hosts will paint a Democrat as having made an argument they never made - or how Scotty McClellan erroneously assigned Helen Thomas a position on the "War on Terror" that she herself had not vocalized.
It is a way to frame the debate on the believer's terms, to set the debate by red herring and strawman. A strawman of a position that I never took.
It is dishonest and manipulative. It forces the atheist to argue against an argument s/he never made in the first place.
It is wrong. And I ask that it stop.
Stop telling atheists what we think. We don't tell you what you think, or how your worldview works. Not if we're decent people, anyway.
I hope this post illuminates the reason why some of us get very angry when someone labels us as "having faith".
We cited several definitions and explained why we were correctly using the original meaning of the word long before you showed up:
beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-18-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #220
227. We already have clarity from legitimate sources.
From Atheists Anonymous
Agnosticism
The theory that man does not have the knowledge to determine whether a god exists; the suspension of judgment due to a lack of knowledge.
Atheism
A lack of faith in a god, supernatural being, or deity. This is a neutral position in regard to the question, "Does god exist?" It does not affirm any belief in god's non-existence despite many people's claims.
Atheism 101: Introduction to Atheism & Atheists
From Austin Cline
What is Atheism?:
The more common understanding of atheism among atheists is "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made — an atheist is a person who is not a theist. Sometimes this broader understanding is called "weak" or "implicit" atheism. There is also a narrower sort of atheism, sometimes called "strong" or "explicit" atheism. Here, the atheist explicitly denies the existence of any gods — making a strong claim which will deserve support at some point.
Who Are Atheists? What Do Atheists Believe?:
There are a lot of misunderstandings about who atheists are, what they believe, and what they don’t believe. People become atheists for many different reasons. Being an atheist isn’t a choice or act of will — like theism, it’s a consequence of what one knows and how one reasons. Atheists are not all angry, they aren’t in denial about gods, and they aren’t atheists to avoid taking responsibility for their acts. It’s not necessary to be afraid of hell and there are advantages to being an atheist.
What is the Definition of Atheism?:
Atheism, broadly defined, it is the absence of belief in the existence of any gods. Christians insist that atheism means the denial of the existence of any gods; the absence of belief in any gods is, for some strange reason, often ignored. At best it might be mistakenly referred to as agnosticism, which is actually the position that knowledge of gods is not possible. Dictionaries and other specialized references make it clear, though, that atheism can have a much broader definition.
Defining Atheism
by George H. Smith
from his 1990 book Atheism, Ayn Rand, and Other Heresies
The technical problems of defining "atheism" may be divided into two categories: (1) etymological and (2) epistemological. (For the purpose of this discussion, I shall accept the common definition of "theism" as "belief in a god or gods.")
1. It is sometimes claimed that the chief etymological problem in defining "atheism" is how to construe the prefix "a." Should we regard it as a term of privation meaning "without," or should we regard it as a term of negation meaning "no"?
If we choose the privative meaning of "without," then "a-theism" will mean "without-theism" -- i.e., "without (or lacking) belief in a god or gods." This clearly supports the definition of atheism as the absence of theistic belief.
What if we construe the prefix "a" negatively to mean "no"? This has been preferred by those who wish to define atheism as the outright denial of God's existence. But consider: even the negative sense of "a" doesn't, by itself, give us this definition. "A-theism," with the negative "a," translates into "no-belief in a god or gods." Here again, we have an essentially privative definition -- atheism as the absence of theistic belief.
I suggest, therefore, that the real problem in defining "atheism" lies, not in the meaning of the prefix "a," but in determining precisely where that prefix should be inserted.
Atheism as outright denial can be achieved only if the negative "a" is used, not to qualify the entire meaning of "theism," but only part of it -- i.e., "a-theism" means "belief in no god or gods." In this interpretation, atheism is construed, not as the absence of a belief, but as a particular kind of belief.
The case for atheism as a kind of belief -- the belief in the nonexistence of God -- was championed by no less a figure than J.M. Robertson, the great historian of freethought. Robertson argued that any "ism," including atheism, implies that we are dealing with a positive belief or doctrine, not a simple privation. Contrary to Robertson's view, "-ism" can mean something other than a doctrine or belief; it can mean "a state or condition" as well. Thus, the privative definition of atheism is still possible. Atheism as the absence of belief can denote an "ism" -- a state of mind in which theistic belief is absent.
2. Linguistic arguments over the correct definition of "atheism" will solve little, because -- as philosophers like to remind us -- questions of word-meaning are ultimately determined by conventional usage, not by the decrees of linguistic "experts." But conventional usage does not solve the problem either, for we may ask: whose usage? During the McCarthy era, for example, atheism was commonly linked to communism. What, then, were noncommunistic atheists to do? Should they have stepped forward and defied conventional usage, thereby incurring the wrath of McCarthy, his goons, and philosophers?
Those philosophers who rely solely on "conventional usage" should recall that "atheism" has been used throughout history as a term of opprobrium, a veritable smear word. Indeed, until the eighteenth century, an "atheist" could be anyone who disagreed with one's own religious convictions -- a person who denied the divinity of Roman emperors, or who disbelieved in witchcraft, or who denied the Trinity, or who rejected infant baptism, or who maintained that philosophers should be free to seek the truth, wherever it may lead them.
Perhaps atheists can find refuge from the tyranny of "conventional meaning" in what philosophers call "technical, definitions." Thus, biologists are permitted to offer their own definition of "life," for example, without being overly concerned whether laymen (the conventional majority) agree with, or even know of, their definition. Similarly, professed atheists may have the epistemological right to define atheism, in the technical sense, as the "absence of theistic belief," even if most laymen (i.e., theists) disagree with that definition.
Or perhaps atheists can fall back on the rule of fundamentality, which says that a definition should identify the fundamental, or essential, attribute of the concept being defined. Obviously, the absence of theistic belief is more fundamental than the denial of theism, for the latter is a subset of the former. (One who denies the existence of God also lacks belief, but the reverse is not necessarily true: one who lacks belief in God does not necessarily deny its existence.)
According to this reasoning, one who denies God's existence is a legitimate atheist, but he subscribes to a particular species of atheism. If, however, we construe atheism as the denial of God's existence, then the person who merely lacks theistic belief is not a real atheist, but an imposter. This exclusion by definition, it seems to me, is ungracious, and it shows ignorance of what important atheists have argued for many years.
The Scope of Atheism
by George H. Smith
from his book Atheism: The Case Against God
Implicit atheism is conveniently ignored by those theists who represent atheism as a positive belief rather than the absence of belief. While this may appear to be a subtle distinction, it has important consequences.
If one presents a positive belief (i.e., an assertion which one claims to be true), one has the obligation to present evidence in its favor. The burden of proof lies with the person who asserts the truth of a proposition. If the evidence is not forthcoming, if there are not sufficient grounds for accepting the proposition, it should not be believed. The theist who asserts the existence of a god assumes the responsibility of demonstrating the truth of this assertion; if he fails in this task, theism should not be accepted as true.
Some believers attempt to escape the responsibility of providing evidence by shifting this responsibility onto atheism. Atheism, which is represented as a rival belief to theism, allegedly cannot demonstrate the nonexistence of a god, so it is claimed that the atheist is no better off than the theist. This is also the favorite argument of the agnostic, who claims to reject theism and atheism on the basis that neither position can provide demonstration.
When atheism is recognized as the absence of theism, the preceding maneuver falls to the ground. Proof is applicable only in the case of a positive belief. To demand proof of the atheist, the religionist must represent atheism as a positive belief requiring substantiation. When the atheist is seen as a person who lacks belief in a god, it becomes clear that he is not obligated to "prove" anything. The atheist qua atheist does not believe anything requiring demonstration; the designation of "atheist" tells us, not what he believes to be true, but what he does not believe to be true. If others wish for him to accept the existence of a god, it is their responsibility to argue for the truth of theism -- but the atheist is not similarly required to argue for the truth of atheism.
It is crucial to distinguish between atheism as such and the many beliefs which an atheist may hold. All atheists do adopt some positive beliefs, but the concept of atheism does not encompass these beliefs. Atheism refers only to the element of nonbelief in a god, and since there is no content here, no positive beliefs, the demand for proof cannot apply.
Atheism is not necessarily the end product of a chain of reasoning. The term "atheist" tells us that one does not believe in a god, but it does not specify why. Regardless of the cause of one's nonbelief, if one does not believe in a god, one is atheistic.
Theism must be learned and accepted. If it is never learned, it cannot be accepted -- and man will remain implicitly atheistic. If theism is learned but rejected anyway, man will be explicitly atheistic -- which brings us to the second kind of atheism.
(b) An explicit atheist is one who rejects belief in a god. This deliberate rejection of theism presupposes familiarity with theistic beliefs and is sometimes characterized as anti-theism.
If you need more sources, just say the word.
Now perhaps you can explain why we should use your personal definition instead of the correct one?
And look what dragged itself into a thread specifically ASKING PEOPLE TO RESPECT OUR RIGHT TO DEFINE OURSELVES:
Festivito (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-18-05 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
171. Use atheist in an inexact way, then complain about others' exactitude.
Atheist gets stretched to mean what agnostic means, then "atheist" used in a forum evokes one response from people holding one meaning and a confusing response due to a different meaning held by someone else. AND THEY TAKE OFFENSE AT EACH OTHER?!
Some people have faith in God, some in the Bible.
..even though some things did not go well.
Some people have faith in science and the scientific method.
..even though scientific method occasionally pulls a boner.
Some people have faith in the belief that God does not exist.
..even though some rare occurances make them doubt the opposing.
It is not inconcievable that a self-labeled self-defined-atheist, might have faith in their self-defined state. Faith that the description will relate who they are to others. Faith that the identity derived will fit their being throughout their life, offering themselves clarity or some form of satisfaction.
Since atheists should be allowed to define themselves, and thus define the word atheist, to mean "does not believe in God" rather than "beleives there is no God," perhaps posting proponents of faith could define faith as "possibly believing in" something thus making the idea of atheist having faith seem un-insulting.
beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-18-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #171
233. Inexact? According to who?
You?
Thanks, but I think I'll stick with more reliable sources on this one.
They seem to have a better grasp of the language, if you know what I mean.
If not, see post #227.
Festivito (1000+ posts) Wed Oct-19-05 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #233
274. According to your two prong definitions.
The 227 post relays TWO defs of atheist. One meaning used by some poster caused offense to a second poster who saw a different meaning to the same word.
link to 227
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... I think atheists have been and are persecuted. I can understand wanting a big tent, more-inclusive definition to include all those persecuted by intolerant groups.
But, now we have no word! Someone posts "atheist" and what does it mean? Wanting to respond with, "god only knows what they mean," can be taken in two different ways.
I have spent years discussing and explaining the different types of atheism on DU and other forums (positive vs. negative, implicit vs. explicit, strong vs. weak, agnostic atheism vs. agnostic theism, etc), so I'll have to ask you to show me where I claimed there was only one kind of atheism/atheist.
And I'm not going anywhere, you can expect your misrepresentations to be countered, even though it appears you are incapable of understanding those tricky "two prong definitions".