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margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:04 PM
Original message
Addicted to Religion
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 01:05 PM by margotb822
I just want to preface this by saying that I’m not a psychologist or psychiatrist. I haven’t even taken the “standard” college psych class. I’m just writing from my observations and experiences. So, on with the show…

I have this theory that everyone is addicted to something. Alcohol and drugs are the common ideas that pop into people’s minds because those are addictions that cause chemical dependency, but there are many more addictions and they’re only driven by one chemical: dopamine. Gambling, shopping, BASE jumping, sex, food, hell, even politics (c’mon, you know you’ve gotten a “rush” from a heated debate and totally trouncing your freeper cousin). We’re all after that feeling of total awesomeness. It’s not that our compulsive society drives these addictions, but that our need for satisfaction drives the compulsive society.

Addictions can be treated, but the need for that next rush never goes away. my observation is that people “trade” one addiction for the next. I have a family member that is a gambler. After attending Gamblers Anonymous, he gained about 60lbs. He loves food. Well, he loves eating. It’s that rush. It makes him feel good. I’m sure everyone knows someone who has traded one addiction for another (maybe it’s you); food for exercise, gambling for shopping, alcohol for God. Yea, I said it. People don’t stop being addicted, they just focus their addiction on something else.

How many people do you know that found God after battling an addiction or rough spot? I know a lot. After all, most born-agains have the “My life was crazy until I found God” story. And, it’s not just Christian God. We all know people who have converted to another religion and became fanatics. Well, I’d like to replace the word “fanatic” with “addict.” I believe that the religious fanaticism in this country is not about God at all, but about addiction.

Think about it. Is there another explanation for religious fanatics? They’re addicted to feeling righteous, to feeling superior. But, beyond that, they display all the signs of addiction. Here are some general signs of drug use from the Mayo Clinic:

• Feeling that you need the drug regularly and, in some cases, many times a day
• Making certain that you maintain a supply of the drug
• Feeling that you need the drug to deal with your problems
• Driving or doing other activities that place you and others at risk of physical harm when you're under the influence of the drug

And my personal favorite (from the Hallucinogens section):

• Greatly impaired perception of reality

Interestingly, neglect and abuse were not listed, but from my own experiences with addicts, these are classic symptoms.

Religion can absolutely be substituted for drug in many of these cases: daily church attendance, not being able to go without church, feeling that only God can handle your problems, denying medical care to people because of religion. The impared perception of reality speaks for itself. We can plainly see that religious fanatics are not operating in the same dimension as the rest of the world. These are signs of addiction. I went to college with a girl who became “born again” and she used to pray that God would give her ideas for her assignments. She’d waste hours waiting for signs instead of just writing the paper. I thought she was just crazy, when in reality, she was an addict.

Maybe it’s too controversial to suggest that people can be addicted to religion, but I’m pretty sure that if scientific studies were conducted on the dopamine levels of religious fanatics, they would bear strikingly similar results to those of recognized addicts. Religious addiction is damaging our society, our Constitution, and it, more than anything else, drives a wedge between us and keeps us from moving forward as a people.

check out my website for more!
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Religion is the opium of the people - Karl Marx
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Recently replaced with...
"Religion is the opium of the people..."

Recently replaced with big screen TV's, I-Pods, and Gaming Console systems... :evilgrin:
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jmondine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. Hey now, I can quit playing with my Wii at any time
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. And I can quit going to Church at any time....
And I can quit going to Church at any time. :evilgrin:
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I thought the quote was:
"The masses are asses".
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Actually, I always thought it was an accurate quote.
But if you follow the wiki link, that was really a paraphrase of the original German.

To be absolutely accurate, the quote is:

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. arrgh! you beat me to it!
i was thinking the same thing!!!
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. Given some of the insane fundie aggressiveness--
--I'd say it was more like the methamphetamine of the people.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
88. at the time Marx said this, opium was
Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 09:49 PM by quaker bill
one of the only known pain relievers and regularly used to great benefit by a many people, to include Marx himself. The analogy was not to addiction, but to use of a substance for pain relief that did not cure the disease. There is truth to this understanding, a truth that was much more accurate to the social conditions of pre-revolution Russia than the US today.

However, when Barack made his comment about clinging to guns and religion, he was hinting around the same concept.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Considering that a good number of
"born again" are drug addicts that kicked the habit when they found Jebus it is not a surprise to me they simply transferred addictions
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margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. The need never goes away
They're definitely still addicts.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. Hammer meet nail.
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 03:39 PM by YOY
They also feel everyone has the same uncravable additions as they did (or still do).

I always refer to them as the people who got f***ed up and brought coke to a weed and alchohol party, had sex with a complete stranger in the home owner's bed, started a few fights, destroyed some property, and then had the nerve to suggest everyone at the party was doing just as they did and everyone needs to repent and find born-again jesus. Bunch of wastes of humanity that should have self destructed or been helped to truly slate their addiction with a proper clinic.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Most people I know are not addicted to anything.
I think your theory fails on this point, alone.
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margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. How do you know?
Do you know all of these people so well that you know what they're doing all the time?

And, it may not be that people are addicted to "something" as much as they're addicted to feeling good. People may be able to spread that desire over a number of outlets. Like I said, I'm just an observer, and this is what I've seen.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
72. I don't need to know what people are doing all the time
and to put it politely, I think you don't know what you are talking about in regard to addiction.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I have a hard time sleeping without a fan. I am addicted to fans, at least at night.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Addiction is a strong word
and has a strict clinical definition -- which isn't necessarily accurate.

However, the constant search for something outside of you to validate you or dull the need for exterior validation is a danger sign. For some people drugs or alcohol for the dulling effect. For others, it can be shopping or something else -- even running or going to the gym. And, for others, it's religion. Many things that people turn to are okay, and even beneficial, in moderation -- but can be destructive when taken to extremes. Religion is no different than anything else in that respect.

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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. Habit as addiction
Humans, like many other animals, fall into patterns of repetitive behavior; walking the same trails, drinking at the same watering spots, etc. All the things you list are behaviors that, with a little positive reinforcement in the way of feeling good, can turn into "addictions".

I think you hit the nail on the head that people can be addicted to religion. It's most apparent in those who have substituted religion for some destructive substance abuse habit. Religion may not be as harmful to the individual, but the case can be made that it's just as harmful to the immediate family as those substances of abuse were.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
12. We see this in the Twelve Step program
No matter how you dance around it, most of the Twelve Steps are pure, unmitigated Evangelical Christianity: You have no power (Step 1); Only God can make you better (Step 2); You must give your life over to God (Step 3); You must confess your sins to God (Step 5); You must pray that God will fix you (Step 6); And fix you some more (Step 7); And then you pray some more (Step 11); And spread the Holy Gospel (Step 12).

Its "cure" is to replace a hopeless dependence on one addiction with a hopeless dependence on religion.
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margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Creepy
So creepy!
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. At least the Jesus freaks don't lie about it.
Steppers take pride in their ability to deceive themselves and others, and become extraordinarily vicious when they fail at it, which is fairly often.

Lucky for them, they get a steady stream of low-to-no income mental patients to harass, abuse, and rape. Isn't state sanctioned religion just lovely?
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
66. I respectfully disagree.
Now, maybe a lot of individual meetings veer off the proposed course, but my home group is pretty protective of the traditions of the program - namely that we're not affiliated with any religion, creed, or dogma. We're pretty protective of that, because it allows for such a diverse group of individuals with diverse beliefs to come together for a common purpose (otherwise, if it were all about Jesus, about half the folks in the meeting would feel pretty left out - myself included).
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. I am not speaking of meetings, but the program itself
While they try to hide it under a veneer of "Higher Power" (a term that I'm certain causes O`Lielly to have the same coniptions as "Happy Holidays"), the truth is that the program itself parallels, in all regards, fundamentalist Christian doctrine.

We have had discussions about how the program is implemented at different meetings, and I know that our experiences have been vastly different. :hi:
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #68
77. Parallels? Sure.
But on an objective standard, the materials come right out and say that it's not affiliated with any religion, creed, or dogma and, IMHO, people who do want to make it about a religion don't really belong.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
105. Well, here's one who's been helped a lot by 12-step programs, and

I'm not hopelessly dependence on religion.

12 Step Programs are SUPPOSED to be about spirituality, not religion. I'm well aware that many times the meetings are adulterated with religious talk, the Lord's prayer, etc.




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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
14. This is so True, I am also addicted to air, water and food it's nuts. n/t
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 02:12 PM by MiltonF
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Which would be very analogous
if all atheists died essentially within minutes of renouncing their faith.

You listed necessities. Religion is not a necessity.
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Well spiritual death for me would be more severe than physical death. n/t
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Now, if only religion was necessarily connected to spirituality
Most of the "religious" groups in the US are merely social groups who pretend to be spiritual, when they're just political/marketing outlets.

When they're selling tapes of the minister's sermons at the front door, you know they've abandoned all pretext at spirituality.

Most religious services consist of reading bad translations of dubious texts, singing religious nursery rhymes, giving god his marching orders for the week, and advancing the political agenda of the preacher.

I think it was Garison Keillor who said that most evangelical churches were more about hairdos than theology.

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margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Interesting that you bring this up
On my social networking profile, in the space for religious views, I wrote: being religious and being spritual aren't necessarily the same thing.

Religious fanatics I've encountered have lost the spiritual side of their religion.
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Key words "for me"
There's no such thing as a spiritual death
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Have you ever had a spiritual experience? n/t
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. I've had many powerful experiences...none of which were spiritual
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. I assure you. It wouldn't be. There is demonstrable fact to prove so.
n.t.
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Have a link? n/t
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Nope. Have personal experience.
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 04:23 PM by YOY
Also have seen nothing of the contrary on anybody else who has had such an experience. Pretty demonstrable fact.

Hey, if your happy with it, just keep it. Saying you need it (or don't need it) like the air you breath is rather wrong though.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. So an imaginary death is more important than a real one?
Do you see nonbelievers living lives of despair and living death? Do the nonbelievers on DU strike you as a moribund bunch who have no spirit left and nothing to live for. They seem awfully lively to me.
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Yes...
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
73. The difference is
we can definitively prove we are as alive as anyone else, and no objective test will be able to identify this "spiritual death" you fear. While we certainly can't prove that something does not survive post mortem on the other hand (nor should we have to - burden of proof and all that) we can indeed show that by any measurable or detectable criterion, all functioning, experience and sensation ends with our death. We know for example how humans feel emotions, or pain. We know what areas of the brain are active when we are thinking in different ways. We know all these stop working after death. So all the implication is that these aboilities of experience and emotion and cogitation end after death.

So in short you can identify no single objective criterion to even detect spiritual death let alone measure it, and rely on a hope with zero evidence that any process whatsoever continues after the very real and objective real death that we all know exists.

Dunno about you, but that looks like a pretty tall order to me.

I'm enjoying my real life quite a bit, and not spending one second worrying about an imaginary one. So far I seem to be alive in every way that counts (and even in your version I will only find out I'm wrong after I die anyway), so still not sure where this spiritual death would matter at all.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
42. So you think.
There's no such thing as spiritual death.

There's no such thing as spirit.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
74. I think you're asking the wrong guy
He certainly seems to think there is a spiritual life and that it's important. Assuming you're looking for an answer from somebody meeting your question's assumptions then yes, I think there is no such thing as spiritual death and no such thing as a spirit (in the metaphysical sense - certainly you can be in good spirits and play a sport with spirit but these are merely synonyms for perfectly natural functions).

Can I prove that? No - and don't need to. It is simply irrelevant to how I view the world, just like those 18' tall blue falsetto sig=nging tripeds. Do they exist? Who knows, but there is no evidence for them , and no way they can be shown to impact our lives or make a difference in our bodies or minds or functioning in this material world.

Anything without evidence or sound logical basis is by definition irrelevant to our lives, because we cannot know anything about it. It's an epistemological nullity. What can we know about the spirit? How can we know it? What does it do, and how do we leverage it? We cannot answer these things in any way other than infinitely variable subjective hunches. We cannot test it or detest it or even argue about it's truth value, because it cannot be described with any concrete attributes.

Let's say there is some kind of soul or spirit or ka or whatever you like. Without being able to know for sure anything about it, how can we know what is beneficial for the spirit or what is harmful? Maybe the spirit thrives on gluttony or drunkenness or violence,and we are impoverishing our spirits by not seeking these. Maybe it thrives in solitude (some ascetics and hermits certainly believe this) and so anyone working in food banks or soup kitchens is causing their spirit to shrink away. Maybe the reverse is true (may religionists believe this) and that our spirit blossoms when we are kind and generous and altruistic to our fellow beings, and then the spirit of reclusive monks or solitary yogis is shriveled. Because we cannot know this and cannot even base solid arguments on which is more likely correct, the whole idea of a spirit or spiritual life becomes a pointless subjective guess.

Plenty of people no doubt disagree, but I also guarantee they disagree on WHY they disagree - so that in essence proves my point.

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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Wasn't really asking anything. Just stating my point of view.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
17. A big 'ol K&R!!!
- To the Greatest Page with ya!!!!
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
20. I used to be fucked up on drugs. Then, I found Jesus. Now, I'm fucked up on Jesus.
Cheech or Chong -- maybe both.
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Big Bambu?
I think it was from that album. Not sure who was doing the female voice in that skit. :D Funny shit though.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. "Religious addiction ..., more than anything else, drives a wedge between us..."
You might want to give that some thought. Think Civil War. And yes, in my opinion, race is still a bigger issue in this country than religion.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
27. And what about being addicted to being against religion.
I'm not talking about those who have no religion and no opinion on religion, just those who almost religiously find ways fight with established religions. Kind of in the way some addicts say they aren't hurting anyone else by doing this or that, these people also think their round about ways don't hurt anyone.

Just say'n.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. "...just those who almost religiously find ways fight with established religions..."
The "addiction" to which you refer, is not one of fighting against establish religions, but rather towards wresting away our personal freedoms from their influence and control.

- I too, am so addicted....
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Good. Hope you can use all those freedoms well. /nt
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. I think some people here might just fall into that one.
Personally, I don't find the need to push my lack of faith on anyone or buy any books that support my lack of faith but hey...whatever floats your boat...or lack of a boat.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. No push, no books, but would you, say, post anything?
Jus 1dr'n
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Just my personal opinion.
Take it or leave it for what it's worth.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Didn't mean to get too personal. /nt
Sounds like a personal problem.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. It is more about being addicted to the ideals of freedom, responsibility and the First Amendment
Pity that there are not more Americans addicted to such. Maybe if we tainted the nation's water supply with something....

And greetings! I was wondering when you would step in with your usual "STOP PERSECUTING US!" diatribes. By the way, have you seen this thread? You seem not to have weighed in yet about how bigoted and discriminatory DU and America as a whole are.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Freedom, responsibility: great ideals, 1st Amendment -- not.
Don't get me wrong, the 1st is a great idea, just not ideal.

It would be wonderful if more Americans were more in tune with freedom and its associated responsibility. Addicted is overstating albeit hopefully with pnash.

I don't think you intend to taint the nation's water supply, not for goodness, not for any reason. Your intention is good, your quip made to show your intention is really really bad and you should mention that it was not intended to happen.

My point in our last fight was to have your side quit persecuting the United States and its Constitution. You and your ilk could not get that through your heads jumping to conclusions about what I was to say faster than Bush makes a buck off our tax dollars.

The other post reports a poll. Polls require a lot of research before commenting. Not interested. Hope it was fun for you.

And, when it comes to bigoted and discriminatory DUers, I do think there are some operatives sent to this site, but other than that I'm at a loss to figure out what you might mean. I will also say that the posters I've combated have preconceived notions that persist despite my insistence they have not understood what I said. If you call that bigotry, well, okay, that stretches the meaning of the word.

There certainly are bigoted Americans, and I do not approve of their bigotry. But, I feel that such bigotry/discrimination is small enough to let alone mostly. This last election really said it, and it hurt a few people I know. I could not be happier knowing how it hit them.

I did like your sig line. Keep SOL in solstice! Save the Yules!

Your head-butt'n bud,
--Fes
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
49. And in what way are anti-religionist hurting others?
Does "Just say'n" mean you don't have to provide any evidence for you claims?
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Some of it kept us from winning the religious vote.
And that sucked for two four year periods.

Could not get an idea through these guys at all.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. So Bush was our fault?
:rofl:

Who knew atheists were so powerful?


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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Cannot get an idea through these guys at all.
Doesn't matter so much anymore.

Ho hum.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. That's funny.
I thought the religious conservatives wouldn't vote for Democrats because Democrats have liberal policies. So if we just start being nice to them, then they'll accept gays as human beings, support a woman's right to choose, allow a fact-based national education policy, reject war as an instrument of policy, and vote for a man with dark skin and a foreign-sounding name? Here I thought it was because they are superstitious troglodytes! We just have to stop promoting reason and compassion. I never knew this whole thing was my fault!

Seriously, the religious enjoy an undue deference in this society. The problem isn't that we're too critical of religion. It's that we're not critical enough.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Don't waste your time.
Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 12:02 AM by beam me up scottie
You won't find more ignorance and prejudice anywhere else on DU:

Festivito (1000+ posts) Wed Feb-13-08 12:36 PM
Response to Original message

107. I've tried discussing with DU atheists and always found it lacking.
To assert and unprovable as non-existant, seems a position of anger, rather than assertion based upon personal belief.

I've tried to finds something further, but failed thus far. I have dear family and friends who are devoutly atheist -- not agnostics, and I'd have no problem with putting them in political offices.

But, that disconnect does bother me.

I do not want highest level decisions being made from a standpoint of anger at organized religion.

Please understand, other people may not think it out like this, they just "have a feeling" that they don't like something,... and, it would make sense for these people that an atheist would rank below Isamist, even in these days.


Festivito (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #283

287. Perhaps your glib response is your reality avoidance.
You seem not to comprehend that mixing analogies, even with that greatest of analogies, reality itself, like mixing metaphors, neither helps discussion and usually hurts it. I'm not hiding from reality. I'm trying to describe it. Perhaps not well, but I'm trying. And, I'm trying to get my point across to people who think radically differently from me, but we do have a common need, to knock these RepubliCONs out.

But, alas, another DU atheist thread and once again I find it lacking. It must be me, I'm sure you'd think.

If I could get you guys to understand a few things we could take the churches into our hold and drop those thieves where they belong, forever, together. But, alas, there is hard heartedness and hard headedness in droves.


Festivito (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #253

277. What differs between atheist and agnostic in terms of belief? NOTHING?
An agnostic does not believe in a god, because an agnostic does not know if god exists.

An atheist does not believe in a god, because an atheist, I would think, denies that god exists.

OTHERWISE, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ATHEIST AND AGNOSTIC?

...let's keep it simple for a moment.


Festivito (1000+ posts) Sat Aug-16-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message

29. After seeing how the atheists on DU discuss and argue: NO.
The vetting process would be much harder now for any self-described atheist to garner my support. That even now applies to my atheist friends and family.

Although, between an atheist and a Republican, I'd vote for the atheist in a heartbeat.


Festivito (1000+ posts) Wed Dec-03-08 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #14

228. DING DING DING, except you're too kind. They're LIARS.
That group claims they have a lack of belief in a god. They go to great and angry lengths to point that atheism is not saying that there is no god, just a lack of belief in a god. Yet, on this poster "there are no gods."

They complain about religious hypocrites and they themselves are hypocrites and fools for not seeing it as they started the labeling.

They say they want separation of church and state, so when they see another religion, they don't respect a wall of separation, they make it a wall of confrontation. They have no care or concern for what the Constitution actually says. They just want to yelp separation as though it came from the Constitution and then define it to mean them confronting others in rude fashion.



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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #55
64. Gee that's swell.
Seem to recall one where I suggested that you do beam up.

And your tag team partner exasperated me till I suggested that they do not play well with others.

I recall you wouldn't allow the word atheist to mean someone who denies God, only as one who lacks belief in God.

Then came that atheist poster from FFRF having more than a lack of belief, having a big black and white denial of God as an atheist and I was mad after all that "lack" stuff that I was trying to work with, and should not have had to work with it.

Oh well, election's over.

Hope you're doing fine.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #64
75. Which would be relevant
if ANY atheist had said that the FFRF was the final and irrevocable arbiter of their positions.

Even if that sign were intended as an official policy statement rather than as a deliberately provocative attempt to make the point that religious displays do not belong on government property, it would be binding only on those who have deferred to Dan Barker the right to speak for them.

Most of us have not done so.

Not that the FFRF are in any way comparable, but does Fred Phelps speak for all Christians? Why then should one strong atheist speak for all athists of any kind?

Your claim of "proving them liars" was either itself a lie, or downright idiocy and hypocrisy not to immediately see the problem above.

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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. No. My point only needs that there are such atheists.
My point does not require that all atheists be of one ilk.

It was insisted to me that atheist was only a lack of belief, not a belief that there is no god. When FFRF posted that poster, it was, aha! They were caught. They can't pull that on me anymore.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. Sorry, but wrong
You specifically said it made all DU atheists liars. Atheism IS only lack of belief, but lack of belief includes various levels, and various understandings, of certainty. A strong atheist lacks belief just like I do, but adds on additional certainty that he is right to lack belief that I cannot add in intellectual honesty even though I retain 99.99 whater percent assessment of the correctness of that lack of belief.

This is exactly like saying all Christians are Fred Phelps just because he is a Christian. Not being able to see that is either denial or irrationality.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #84
94. I never said all DU atheists are liars.That's just silly.
If you have that said, specifically with the word all, I'd like to see a link to that. You won't find it. You made it up.

Certainly there can be reactionary response by posters who can't seem to answer to what I write and rather respond to their preconceived notions of what they think I would say, for them to think they heard me say something, but you won't find it in my writ.

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #80
90. "aha! They were caught. They can't pull that on me anymore."???
Hmm, an exaggerated sense of self importance AND paranoia...where have I seen that before...

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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #90
95. Oh, beam up already. /nt
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #64
89. Your recollection is as faulty as your logic. Good thing DU has archives, eh?
"I recall you wouldn't allow the word atheist to mean someone who denies God, only as one who lacks belief in God."

The original thread was started by Zhade who was sick and tired of being told what kind of beliefs he had or didn't:

Zhade (1000+ posts) Mon Oct-17-05 05:37 AM
Original message

Atheists who do not claim there is no god do not have an "atheist faith".
(This is predicated by a response in another thread, but I feel my larger point should be repeated in a thread of its own. As this is not intended as a 'revenge thread', I will not name the other thread or poster to which I refer.)

It has been repeatedly noted that some believers here on DU refuse to allow atheists to define themselves. For example, when told that we "do not believe in god", some believers will insist on saying we atheists "have faith there is no god".

This is highly insulting, and I will tell you why - you will discover the reason is not what you may assume.

See, it is not that we are told we "have faith" that is insulting to us. I have faith in lots of things - the love of my friends and family, that the sun will rise tomorrow, that I will always like pickled products unless they are meat-based. In other words, I, an atheist, don't feel offended when the f-word is used around me.

I do, however, take offense when I am characterized in a fashion that is not reflective of who I really am. That's what happens when a believer insists I "have faith god doesn't exist".

Want to know why? It's really quite simple, but easy to miss: it offends me when people put words in my mouth.

Saying that I have faith god doesn't exist, instead of accepting my honest statement that I don't believe in things - including gods - for which there is no evidence, paints me as having argued that there is evidence god doesn't exist.

I have never made that argument. Why? Because I am honest (and sane!) enough to admit that it is impossible for me to know all knowledge in the universe. Or, if we discover they exist, universes! We may very well one day uncover evidence that a god or gods exist somewhere in our universe, who knows?

However, as there is none to date, I don't believe in unproven gods any more than I eagerly await the Easter Bunny on that special Egg-Day.

If I made the affirmative statement "there is no god", I would be making a statement that I could not back up, and it truly would be a faith-based statement, because I would be making an argument for which I could not produce evidence.

I don't, and never would, say that. So when a believer insists that I have faith god doesn't exist, s/he puts words in my mouth I never uttered and assigns me a debate position I never would enter into on my own.

It is similar to how Fox News hosts will paint a Democrat as having made an argument they never made - or how Scotty McClellan erroneously assigned Helen Thomas a position on the "War on Terror" that she herself had not vocalized.

It is a way to frame the debate on the believer's terms, to set the debate by red herring and strawman. A strawman of a position that I never took.

It is dishonest and manipulative. It forces the atheist to argue against an argument s/he never made in the first place.

It is wrong. And I ask that it stop.

Stop telling atheists what we think. We don't tell you what you think, or how your worldview works. Not if we're decent people, anyway.

I hope this post illuminates the reason why some of us get very angry when someone labels us as "having faith".





We cited several definitions and explained why we were correctly using the original meaning of the word long before you showed up:

beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-18-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #220

227. We already have clarity from legitimate sources.
From Atheists Anonymous

Agnosticism
The theory that man does not have the knowledge to determine whether a god exists; the suspension of judgment due to a lack of knowledge.

Atheism
A lack of faith in a god, supernatural being, or deity. This is a neutral position in regard to the question, "Does god exist?" It does not affirm any belief in god's non-existence despite many people's claims.


Atheism 101: Introduction to Atheism & Atheists
From Austin Cline

What is Atheism?:

The more common understanding of atheism among atheists is "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made — an atheist is a person who is not a theist. Sometimes this broader understanding is called "weak" or "implicit" atheism. There is also a narrower sort of atheism, sometimes called "strong" or "explicit" atheism. Here, the atheist explicitly denies the existence of any gods — making a strong claim which will deserve support at some point.

Who Are Atheists? What Do Atheists Believe?:

There are a lot of misunderstandings about who atheists are, what they believe, and what they don’t believe. People become atheists for many different reasons. Being an atheist isn’t a choice or act of will — like theism, it’s a consequence of what one knows and how one reasons. Atheists are not all angry, they aren’t in denial about gods, and they aren’t atheists to avoid taking responsibility for their acts. It’s not necessary to be afraid of hell and there are advantages to being an atheist.

What is the Definition of Atheism?:

Atheism, broadly defined, it is the absence of belief in the existence of any gods. Christians insist that atheism means the denial of the existence of any gods; the absence of belief in any gods is, for some strange reason, often ignored. At best it might be mistakenly referred to as agnosticism, which is actually the position that knowledge of gods is not possible. Dictionaries and other specialized references make it clear, though, that atheism can have a much broader definition.




Defining Atheism
by George H. Smith
from his 1990 book Atheism, Ayn Rand, and Other Heresies

The technical problems of defining "atheism" may be divided into two categories: (1) etymological and (2) epistemological. (For the purpose of this discussion, I shall accept the common definition of "theism" as "belief in a god or gods.")

1. It is sometimes claimed that the chief etymological problem in defining "atheism" is how to construe the prefix "a." Should we regard it as a term of privation meaning "without," or should we regard it as a term of negation meaning "no"?

If we choose the privative meaning of "without," then "a-theism" will mean "without-theism" -- i.e., "without (or lacking) belief in a god or gods." This clearly supports the definition of atheism as the absence of theistic belief.

What if we construe the prefix "a" negatively to mean "no"? This has been preferred by those who wish to define atheism as the outright denial of God's existence. But consider: even the negative sense of "a" doesn't, by itself, give us this definition. "A-theism," with the negative "a," translates into "no-belief in a god or gods." Here again, we have an essentially privative definition -- atheism as the absence of theistic belief.

I suggest, therefore, that the real problem in defining "atheism" lies, not in the meaning of the prefix "a," but in determining precisely where that prefix should be inserted.

Atheism as outright denial can be achieved only if the negative "a" is used, not to qualify the entire meaning of "theism," but only part of it -- i.e., "a-theism" means "belief in no god or gods." In this interpretation, atheism is construed, not as the absence of a belief, but as a particular kind of belief.

The case for atheism as a kind of belief -- the belief in the nonexistence of God -- was championed by no less a figure than J.M. Robertson, the great historian of freethought. Robertson argued that any "ism," including atheism, implies that we are dealing with a positive belief or doctrine, not a simple privation. Contrary to Robertson's view, "-ism" can mean something other than a doctrine or belief; it can mean "a state or condition" as well. Thus, the privative definition of atheism is still possible. Atheism as the absence of belief can denote an "ism" -- a state of mind in which theistic belief is absent.

2. Linguistic arguments over the correct definition of "atheism" will solve little, because -- as philosophers like to remind us -- questions of word-meaning are ultimately determined by conventional usage, not by the decrees of linguistic "experts." But conventional usage does not solve the problem either, for we may ask: whose usage? During the McCarthy era, for example, atheism was commonly linked to communism. What, then, were noncommunistic atheists to do? Should they have stepped forward and defied conventional usage, thereby incurring the wrath of McCarthy, his goons, and philosophers?

Those philosophers who rely solely on "conventional usage" should recall that "atheism" has been used throughout history as a term of opprobrium, a veritable smear word. Indeed, until the eighteenth century, an "atheist" could be anyone who disagreed with one's own religious convictions -- a person who denied the divinity of Roman emperors, or who disbelieved in witchcraft, or who denied the Trinity, or who rejected infant baptism, or who maintained that philosophers should be free to seek the truth, wherever it may lead them.

Perhaps atheists can find refuge from the tyranny of "conventional meaning" in what philosophers call "technical, definitions." Thus, biologists are permitted to offer their own definition of "life," for example, without being overly concerned whether laymen (the conventional majority) agree with, or even know of, their definition. Similarly, professed atheists may have the epistemological right to define atheism, in the technical sense, as the "absence of theistic belief," even if most laymen (i.e., theists) disagree with that definition.

Or perhaps atheists can fall back on the rule of fundamentality, which says that a definition should identify the fundamental, or essential, attribute of the concept being defined. Obviously, the absence of theistic belief is more fundamental than the denial of theism, for the latter is a subset of the former. (One who denies the existence of God also lacks belief, but the reverse is not necessarily true: one who lacks belief in God does not necessarily deny its existence.)

According to this reasoning, one who denies God's existence is a legitimate atheist, but he subscribes to a particular species of atheism. If, however, we construe atheism as the denial of God's existence, then the person who merely lacks theistic belief is not a real atheist, but an imposter. This exclusion by definition, it seems to me, is ungracious, and it shows ignorance of what important atheists have argued for many years.


The Scope of Atheism
by George H. Smith
from his book Atheism: The Case Against God

Implicit atheism is conveniently ignored by those theists who represent atheism as a positive belief rather than the absence of belief. While this may appear to be a subtle distinction, it has important consequences.

If one presents a positive belief (i.e., an assertion which one claims to be true), one has the obligation to present evidence in its favor. The burden of proof lies with the person who asserts the truth of a proposition. If the evidence is not forthcoming, if there are not sufficient grounds for accepting the proposition, it should not be believed. The theist who asserts the existence of a god assumes the responsibility of demonstrating the truth of this assertion; if he fails in this task, theism should not be accepted as true.

Some believers attempt to escape the responsibility of providing evidence by shifting this responsibility onto atheism. Atheism, which is represented as a rival belief to theism, allegedly cannot demonstrate the nonexistence of a god, so it is claimed that the atheist is no better off than the theist. This is also the favorite argument of the agnostic, who claims to reject theism and atheism on the basis that neither position can provide demonstration.

When atheism is recognized as the absence of theism, the preceding maneuver falls to the ground. Proof is applicable only in the case of a positive belief. To demand proof of the atheist, the religionist must represent atheism as a positive belief requiring substantiation. When the atheist is seen as a person who lacks belief in a god, it becomes clear that he is not obligated to "prove" anything. The atheist qua atheist does not believe anything requiring demonstration; the designation of "atheist" tells us, not what he believes to be true, but what he does not believe to be true. If others wish for him to accept the existence of a god, it is their responsibility to argue for the truth of theism -- but the atheist is not similarly required to argue for the truth of atheism.

It is crucial to distinguish between atheism as such and the many beliefs which an atheist may hold. All atheists do adopt some positive beliefs, but the concept of atheism does not encompass these beliefs. Atheism refers only to the element of nonbelief in a god, and since there is no content here, no positive beliefs, the demand for proof cannot apply.

Atheism is not necessarily the end product of a chain of reasoning. The term "atheist" tells us that one does not believe in a god, but it does not specify why. Regardless of the cause of one's nonbelief, if one does not believe in a god, one is atheistic.

Theism must be learned and accepted. If it is never learned, it cannot be accepted -- and man will remain implicitly atheistic. If theism is learned but rejected anyway, man will be explicitly atheistic -- which brings us to the second kind of atheism.

(b) An explicit atheist is one who rejects belief in a god. This deliberate rejection of theism presupposes familiarity with theistic beliefs and is sometimes characterized as anti-theism.


If you need more sources, just say the word.

Now perhaps you can explain why we should use your personal definition instead of the correct one?


And look what dragged itself into a thread specifically ASKING PEOPLE TO RESPECT OUR RIGHT TO DEFINE OURSELVES:

Festivito (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-18-05 12:27 AM
Response to Original message

171. Use atheist in an inexact way, then complain about others' exactitude.
Atheist gets stretched to mean what agnostic means, then "atheist" used in a forum evokes one response from people holding one meaning and a confusing response due to a different meaning held by someone else. AND THEY TAKE OFFENSE AT EACH OTHER?!

Some people have faith in God, some in the Bible.
..even though some things did not go well.
Some people have faith in science and the scientific method.
..even though scientific method occasionally pulls a boner.
Some people have faith in the belief that God does not exist.
..even though some rare occurances make them doubt the opposing.

It is not inconcievable that a self-labeled self-defined-atheist, might have faith in their self-defined state. Faith that the description will relate who they are to others. Faith that the identity derived will fit their being throughout their life, offering themselves clarity or some form of satisfaction.

Since atheists should be allowed to define themselves, and thus define the word atheist, to mean "does not believe in God" rather than "beleives there is no God," perhaps posting proponents of faith could define faith as "possibly believing in" something thus making the idea of atheist having faith seem un-insulting.


beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-18-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #171

233. Inexact? According to who?
You?


Thanks, but I think I'll stick with more reliable sources on this one.

They seem to have a better grasp of the language, if you know what I mean.

If not, see post #227.


Festivito (1000+ posts) Wed Oct-19-05 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #233

274. According to your two prong definitions.
The 227 post relays TWO defs of atheist. One meaning used by some poster caused offense to a second poster who saw a different meaning to the same word.

link to 227
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I think atheists have been and are persecuted. I can understand wanting a big tent, more-inclusive definition to include all those persecuted by intolerant groups.

But, now we have no word! Someone posts "atheist" and what does it mean? Wanting to respond with, "god only knows what they mean," can be taken in two different ways.



I have spent years discussing and explaining the different types of atheism on DU and other forums (positive vs. negative, implicit vs. explicit, strong vs. weak, agnostic atheism vs. agnostic theism, etc), so I'll have to ask you to show me where I claimed there was only one kind of atheism/atheist.

And I'm not going anywhere, you can expect your misrepresentations to be countered, even though it appears you are incapable of understanding those tricky "two prong definitions".



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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #89
97. You don't even put in a working link. I do. And '05. Sheesh.
There are atheists who claim atheism is only a lack of belief, there is even a website that devotes a webpage to that single definition.

Then comes an atheist who asserts that another religion is a myth. I take it that he believes it, which is fine. That's not just a lack of belief, it is a belief that god is a myth. That's not just simply a lack of belief.

That definition is not true. Those who promote that as a definition are not telling the truth of atheism. Maybe one kind of atheism, not of all of atheism.

There is a group of three of you who round robin in these threads and no longer do good DUer atheists come back into these discussions like Az. I'm sure they are busy.


The '05 discussion:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=30817#30994
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Some conservatives are only out against gays and abortion.
But, really, I think they are the minority.

I think people were sent in to whip the frenzy of a war on xmas, a gay agenda, and rampant abortions. They show up at a church, make a visible donation, talk to the powers that be then after election time, gone.

We actually have so much in common with conservatives. (Small-c) We don't want government to just spend more than it needs to spend, we only disagree on what needs to be funded. We had the same military budget they had.

And when you explain that we're out to protect the little ones, you can reel them in. Hillary tried to bridge the gap with abortions being safe and rare. I wanted to take that one step further: safe, legal, and non-existent. (Should have thought of shunned, oh, that would have worked. Have to remember that one.) That it be safe and legal, but we try to set a tone that induces mothers to WANT to keep babies. It could have worked. We reduce abortions when in power, WHILE POPULATION INCREASES. We could reduce abortions below zero, that is a wall of separation between mothers and abortions, a shunning of abortion by the mother herself. Yet, still safe and legal if the mother and doctor concur.

With gay marriage, we need to let them know there are kids involved and to protect their kids we need this. God lets it rain on the unbeliever as well, why shouldn't we let good things befall them? Could have worked.

And we know there's no war on Christmas, except it be fabricated by the RW. But, there are frenzied DUers planting 'concerns' about Obama and Hillary and Dems in general - spare me. And there are those DUers who must be rid of xmas displays on public property, yelping separation of church and state. But, I ask, is it really so awful to rotate displays of various religions or other entities? We'll have a day of silence or wisdom or whatever from the atheists, whether soft, hard, or whatever.

But, Noooooooooooo. You're trying to ban abortions! No, I'm not. He's trying to ban abortions. No, really, no. Why are you trying to ban abortions? Huh? Seriously, I think they were either think-tank plants or just incredibly asinine. Same thing happens with separation discussions.

So, now it doesn't matter as much. Obama is headed for office. So, now I can be silly on these threads. Except for this little caveat.

I wasn't convincing. Just because I could not get you guys to help doesn't mean it's your fault. That logic still stinks of invalidity.

Wish ya well though, have fun.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. Look, there are disagreements on policy.
You don't think I tried to get conservatives to vote for Obama? You can lay out all the arguments you want, but when they just keep pulling God into it, there's no winning. You can't use logic to dissuade someone away from a position that they didn't use logic to arrive at. So you can try to explain to them why you support the policies you do, but there's a certain point where you just can't win.

And on the other side of it, their religious beliefs are harmful to this country. Someone has to say it.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. Well, I won my converts.
You're letting them bring God into the argument. You have to start with God in the argument. You goofed there dude.

Something's harmful to this country.

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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.
This is a secular country with a secular Constitution. Our nation was born out of the Enlightenment, and our policies are born out of reason. You can't run a modern society based on the superstitious beliefs of a nomadic pastoralist tribe-level society that lived on the opposite side of the Earth 3000 years ago. God has no place in public policy, and it is patently dishonest for me to say that their god supports my policy, because I don't believe in their god. My policy is supported by reason. That should be enough.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. What a hodge-podge.
Ridiculous, whatever.
Yes we're secular. Enlightenment, okay. Policies of reason, some of them.

Then you start with the You can't, you should say You shouldn't, or You oughtn't... or end with and run it well. God has no place, well, He does have place as a creator, it's in there. Don't just deny it.

And why is it patently dishonest to say that what you understand of their God supports your point of view. It's their God, you're talking about to them, talk about their God with them. Not your God. Sheesh. This isn't rocket science.

Reasoning is fine.
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. Oh the self-defeating nature
of fundamentalism. Religious and non-religious.

The point is many people of faith possess liberal beliefs. Sure, you're not going to convince the far-right fundies to vote democratic. But there are a lot of people who should be welcomed to the fold- not pushed away because they don't agree with every single liberal value. It's politically stupid and self-defeating.

The point is, no one is going to agree on every single topic, but don't push away the people with whom we can find common ground- especially on issues of war and peace, human rights, torture, etc.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. What am I doing to push those people away?
What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that my criticism of religion is forcing people to support war and torture?
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. Um, no.
I'm saying that many people of faith are turned off by a perceived (and in many cases, real) extreme anti-religious bent among the Democratic Party, that many of them share our values (and economic situations), should be welcomed, not ridiculed or pushed away because of closely held personal beliefs, and that much common ground can be found among us, if we have enough respect for each other's beliefs. And that fundamentalism in any form is self-defeating- if you don't agree with me on this, this, and this, then go away, you're not pure enough and we don't need you.

I wasn't trying to say that this is your view, in particular.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #63
92. I hear what you're saying....
Posted by Sophree

Um, no.

I'm saying that many people of faith are turned off by a perceived (and in many cases, real) extreme anti-religious bent among the Democratic Party, that many of them share our values (and economic situations), should be welcomed, not ridiculed or pushed away because of closely held personal beliefs, and that much common ground can be found among us, if we have enough respect for each others beliefs. And that fundamentalism in any form is self-defeating- if you don't agree with me on this, this, and this, then go away, you're not pure enough and we don't need you.

I wasn't trying to say that this is your view, in particular.


...I just don't agree with your premise here. Because ultimately to ignore the differences between us on such substantive issues, is something that can only be accomplished by lying. The lie of omission. Where we can't express our views that religion is itself the thing that is responsible for the discrimination against gay Americans, and the attempts to curtail a woman's right to decide what happens to her body and her health, to despoil science and education with that ridiculous ID madness, promoting prayer in schools and the censoring of Harry Potter because of beliefs in warlocks and witches. Some religionists do this through active participation and are committed to such co-mingling of the religious and the secular. And they will never give way to rationality because it is the antithesis of their religious beliefs. To do so renders their beliefs null and void -- even to them. While most of the other religionists just sit back on their haunches and say little or nothing. Thus giving tacit approval and permission for these religious wackos to continue with their assault upon reason.

I don't know why it is that some assume that it is the religionist's ideals and beliefs that should always receive deference and respect and not be disparaged, while non-believers positions must be given short-shrift, must be told to compromise on issues of civil liberties in some bogus attempt to be "inclusive" and must always take society's back seat. If believers are so turned-off by our criticism of their beliefs that it compels them to vote for a party whose sole purpose has been to enrich the rich and keep the poor in their places, to foment war, rape and torture -- all just because we hurt their religious feelings, then all I can say is, they aren't worth the trouble.

- And that their "so-called" religious beliefs in love and compassion, ain't worth spit.
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #92
102. I share your frustration
With people who have voted for the Bu$h admin., allowing the awful consequences of its policies that you mention, because they view him as a Christian, or they've been swayed by right wing pastors, etc. Believe me, I do, especially when it comes to war, loss of civil liberties, shredding the Constitution, etc., etc.

I still respect many of their beliefs, even if I don't agree with them. Still, I think that there is common ground to be found. It's not about "hurt feelings." It's about basic mutual respect for each other's beliefs- which is the point where we can start to come together and heal as a country.

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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #50
67. That is a tired old argument.
It used to be

"If those uppity Negroes would just quit rioting..."

"If those loud-mouth peace-niks would just quit protesting..."

"If those crazy feminist would just quit burning their bras..."

Every time someone stands up for their rights, there is always someone like you telling them to shut up and sit down.

Well, we're not going to shut up and sit down. If you don't want to support the campaigns for equality, the least you could do is stop blaming us for trying to achieve the American dream of equality.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. No. You have not caught on at all. /nt
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. I understand your reactionary attitude well enough. n/t
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #71
79. And I doubt that. /nt
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Your anti-atheist screeds lack the subtlety and nuance
That you seem to believe they have. Your hatred is transparent.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Good! No time to couch ideas. But, the hatred is yours, not mine.
I'm trying to discuss a new idea. I get responses that argue some point heard somewhere else probably from someone else. I'm fine in what I'm doing, but this impertinence needs to be ditched after a while.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. It is always some one else's fault. You believe that your hands
are always clean, but you are one of the most insulting posters I have run across in this forum.

So if you want to get rid of the impertinence, rein in you nasty vitriol.
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uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Tactic #2 n/t
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. We weren't even discussing fault, there's nothing to fault.
So far I'm reactionary, my posts screed, old and tired, I lack, I'm insulting, in fact the most insulting, and my vitriol is nasty, and I attribute fault without even knowing the fault, nor the fault with what.

So far only your posts have been described by me.

I think you should put me on ignore.

Good luck.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #67
93. EXACTLY
Religion has been playing the game of reductionism for centuries. It is not a game of their own choosing. However, they are realizing that they've reached the boundary of relevance and are fighting for their existence. Yet they serve no beneficial purpose in society, and have become a barnacle on the ass of humanity.

- And its way past time to cut them off....
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
54. Yes, how about "those who almost religiously find ways fight with established religions"












:applause:

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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Are you suggesting these fine people are addicts?
Oh my!
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #27
69. Flame war, much?
:eyes: Sheesh. What a lame point.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #69
78. Felt the OP was one, and did respond in kind, except,
You're correct, my response was lame. But, I did want to make a point, that I did make.

If you don't like it, I can understand.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #78
87. I don't like fighting fire with fire.
I prefer trying to have a real conversation, which I thought was the point of DU and the Religion forum in general. The OP had an interesting point, one I remember talking about with friends at our Christian college, so it isn't like only non-believers are saying it. It is something to think about: why do so many recovering addicts immerse themselves in faith as a way to heal? Why do so many of them exhibit similar behaviors to their behavior when under the influence of the addiction? Is the human brain wired for addiction in everyone or just a certain slice of the population? Why are these bad questions?
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #87
96. Bad question?
Is it such a bad question to ask if some hard-atheists also exhibit behaviors of those addicted to Christianity?

Why? Is atheism .... SACRED?

Can as that about Christianity. YUP.

But, nope, no way, can't ask that about atheism. Nope. Atheists can assert that Christianity is a myth and believe it is and believe it strongly and wildly, but, nope, can't talk about that. Gotta call it a flame.

The OP includes that religion and politics can involve these addictive behaviors. Atheism falls under at least one of those categories, if not both.

It's not a bad question.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. Why strike back, though?
I haven't seen addictive behaviors amongst the atheists I know. They're not going anywhere or doing anything many and many times a day, seem to go through withdrawal if they don't get that emotional high, or anything else I associate with the addiction-like behaviors I've seen amongst Christians.

I can understand wanting to treat everything equally, but if you're saying that attacking believers for what we believe is an addictive behavior, I'm going to need more explanation to understand where you're coming from.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Not in the ones I know personally,
although one particular family member makes me question, but it could just have been the drugs.

The ones I've encountered here, hmmm. I'm not so sure.

Why attack. Because I'm tired of us losing the religious voter block. We picked at it this time and this time we won.

I'm tired that the attacks made on Christians and religion in general go unanswered as though we have no response to give, as though the religious voter block is not welcome here.

You might re-check your wording of your post. But, I think I got it.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. We're not losing the religious vote because of DU.
That's a rather specious argument, I think. How many people come here, first of all, and then how many of those refused to vote for Dems at all because of this forum or seeing one or two posts in GD before they got moved? The bigger problem is talk radio and right-wing pastors. Far, far, far bigger part of the loss of the religious vote than people here.

Attacks on Christianity don't go unanswered, from what I see. Many of us here answered this very OP, let alone all the others posted recently. I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian who grew up evangelical, and I have always felt welcome here. Always. Some may take issue with things I post, but when I love them as my neighbor and open my heart to what they're really saying, we usually come to some sort of understanding, and that's better for all of us, believer and non-believer alike.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Correct, it's not because of DU we lose religious vote.
What I really want is a different interpretation for the first amendment. I'm just working at it slowly. More slowly than I'd like do to some lunkheads, IMNSHO.

I wish I had more time for this stuff. Just can't seem to manufacture enough of it.

And there are a lot of attacks that go unanswered.

My attempts here are not to win, not to just fight for the sake of fighting, I'm trying make a better path to a more perfect union with nothing but love for both sides, in every argument at every moment. Exasperating as some have been, I still retain my love for them. I have joked with some of these posters in other posts: "You mean we agree on something!" But, then it's back to the fight.

You and I, we fight for different things and need different methodologies.

Godsped.
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #87
103. It is a good question
I am a recovering addict- although I became a Christian long before I got clean. It's not like I gave up drugs and alcohol and "found God." And I didn't stop just because I became a Christian, although I know people who went to church or were prayed for and gave up drugs/alcohol that day and never went back. Some addicts replace drugs with 12-step programs- at least at first.

Obsessive/Compulsive behavior is very common among addicts, so in some cases, I think people do trade one addiction (one compulsive behavior) for another, replacing drugs/alcohol with God. I've found, however, that recovery (and life) is about balance. I don't "need" to go to church, and I don't feel compelled to do anything in my Christian life like I did when I was in my active addiction. It's exactly the opposite, actually. I feel peace, not compulsion. Love, not "need." Serenity, not impulsivity.

Many addicts have lived for so long without any type of spirituality or moral compass, that these are really new ideas and ways of living for them, and that the introduction of them can be very appealing, healing, and helpful in the recovery process. I can't hope to paint a broad brush for all, since every person is different.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
41. I'm addicted to yarn.
Many of us knitters compare yarn shops to bars and yarn to alcohol. I definitely get a rush when I feel a particularly nice yarn, and I'm not alone (for example, Malabrigo on-line is called Mmmmmmmmalabrigo, and even the Yarn Harlot herself calls Kid-Silk Haze, Crack-Silk Haze).

As for religion, sure, I've known many Christians who turn to God as a replacement for their addiction. That's just the beginning phase, though, and then they usually grow out of it. If they're really addicted, they tend to church-hop, getting more and more wild in their worship until they find the right place for them. Most of those who first act addicted mellow out into a more mature faith or lose their faith and move on.
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #41
104. I'm still addicted to books.
And DU sometimes! If I had more time, I'd sew more and I'd learn to knit and crochet. For real this time- my first attempts at knitting and crocheting were just sad.

Never got my edges straight, kept losing stitch count...

;-)
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
48. That theory is scientifically testable, at least to a degree.
Like any good theory, yours is predictive. There are certain phenomena we should expect as a result of your theory. If, in a laboratory setting, we should find these phenomena, that would be support for your theory.

If your theory is true, you should be able to find certain behavior in every person - addict behavior. There are certain behaviors and physical symptoms associated with addiction. I think your theory fails, however, from the simple fact that we can distinguish addict behavior from non-addict behavior. If everybody is an addict, then we wouldn't be able to tell what addict behavior is. It would just be normal behavior.

I should also think that if everyone's an addict, then you should be able to point to something in your own life that constitutes an addiction.
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uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #48
91. Science FTW.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
106. Read John Bradshaw, Ph.D.
"Healing the Shame that Binds You".

Very good book about obsessive-compulsive behavior. He points out that any form of OC behavior is an attempt to escape feelings of guilt and shame. Especially unearned guilt and shame from Christianity. He was a priest for several years and is a psychologist.

OC behavior includes working, thinking about sex, having sex, collecting things, eating, going to church, and many other things.

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