Is there really life after death? Or nothing after death?

I don't know . . . who got proof? Absolute, definitive proof ether way?

I should have the definitive answer in about sixty years.

but of course I don't have the proof you (or I) would like. It just makes more sense to assume that life goes on, just in another form (1st law of thermodynamics, conservation of energy). Because if it turns out to be the other case (no such continuity) then... you'll never know. Or care.

Right?

Wishful thinking, perhaps?

Just saying "no it isn't" isn't much of an argument is it?

Honestly I don't think it's wishful thinking, I can't even imagine how it would be wishful thinking. It's just logic.

If not, please provide a logical defense.

Every year, humans store more information. We are driven to do so, to preserve the 'past'.

Every year, humans make progress in science and philosophy. We will continue to do so.

It stands to reason that, unless we wipe ourselves out, humanity will evolve and eventually become masters of time, space, and consciousness. It matters not at all how long that takes, whether a hundred years or a million, when it happens, all time will be irrelevant.

What is to stop our evolved descendants from following the human imperative to know all things? To record and preserve all information... including all memory, all consciousness. Why not, in a vast and unfathomable database comprised of the very fabric of the universe itself, preserve all memory, all spirit?

What then?

It would mean that when 'you' die, you are really gone. The apparatus that allows you to form your unique perceptions and memories is, for all purposes, switched off like a light. It would mean that all you really were, ever, was our future divine self simply looking out through your eyes and ears into the life you believed was 'yours'.

It would mean that you have always just been God, perusing the vast database of life and knowing the lives of all things that ever experienced experience.

It would mean, due to the irrelevancy of what we think is 'linear time', that we could evolve, master time, space, and consciousness, and then create the universe itself which gave us rise.

The other possibility, should we fail and become extinguished, is oblivion. In which case... none of us will really care much about where we wind up... so why worry?

Of course, there is always the possibility that another race has beaten us to it...

The soul as a technological artifact. Like the magic mirror in my living room, we didn't find them so we built em.

If the technology is advanced enough why would "I" have to go off? A slow replacement and I wouldn't ever need experience a death. Just a slow shift from one form to another. Maybe with a convenient hallucination built in to buffer the sensory experience. Something soothing and non threatening like a long tunnel maybe. :-)

--IMM

It cannot be recovered. The entropy, or disorder, of the system has been increased. To recover that energy requires energy from an outside source, such as the sun, through photosynthesis, reordering the carbon (and other elements) to restore the fuel. In that case the energy from the sun runs down, and cannot be recovered.

It is a logical error (of reductionism) to equate energy with life. You can draw analogies, and they might be illustrative, but they prove nothing. Life is based on a particular arrangement of matter. When that arrangement is disrupted, life ends. Similarly (here comes an analogy) a wrecking ball turns a building into rubble. All the steel, stone, and glass may be there, but the building is gone. What you are talking about is magic, not science.

--IMM

lol

our consciousness continues after death. It's like claiming that a television will continue playing re-runs of I Love Lucy after it's been disassembled, melted down, and turned into a motorcycle.

:)

If you believe you have an argument based on logical principles, then provide it.
The burden of proof lies with those making incredible claims, not those who question it.

The energy of our bodies is constantly being produced and constantly dissipating as heat. Eventually, that heat radiates into space. While the energy continues, it does so in a simple, uniform form. It lacks the complexity necessary for consciousness or even life.

I don't know there is a way to prove or disprove "life after death."

you'll find out when you die.

:rofl:

I've not had the chance to talk with those that I know that have passed on. Yet.

I'm working on it, though. I'm hoping one of these days one of 'em will pipe up.

*shrug*

Why should it be any different after you die than it was before you were born?

that there was nothing, or that you simply are intended -- usually --

to have no memory of it?

If so where did it come from and where does it go? A wave passes through dirt and we come into existence.

won't be able to tell the other side of the argument, I told you so.


:-(

about that thing called Soul?

Ego's or personalities are a biomechanical function and this is proven. A person who receives certain brain injuries becomes an entirely different person. Example: Said person was a very patient and understanding individual before injury. Post-injured individual is very short tempered and lacks empathy with others. Happens every day.

So who you are dies when you die but I do agree that your energy and matter are redistributed after you die.

personalities. I refer again to the Soul which is not the Brain, although I will go as far as to hypothesize that while the Soul is not the brain, the brain may be a part of the Soul.

Is it wood and metal and glass? Or is it the arrangement of wood and metal and glass. You are confusing memory with existence.

--IMM

confusing a house with a home.

Neither do I. As for consciousness after death, it would seem that it would be much the same. I suspect consciousness of being alive is limited to being alive, not before or after. Thus, I sincerely believe this it folks.

besides, I never really liked the notion of "eternal life". Think about it; a trillion years is just a drop in the bucket of eternity. "Eternal life" would be maddening, I suspect.

If the sense of a "self" becomes something else, does is cease to exist or merely change?

Does a finger or toe have a sense of "self"? Why or why not?

Does a rock? Is that rock like a finger? Or toe?

Puzzling.


I've heard it said that God created us so He can experience Himself. When there is no 'other' than the All, how does the All have a sense of "self"? How can there be a dark without a light? Cold without warm? Now without then? Self without Other? Yin without Yang?

and thus we exist prior to being aware of our existence, but to the extent that we are conscious of our being that makes us self aware, it is not relevant that we exist before being born or exist as earth after death... because we are no longer self aware of being. It is not important that we exist before or after this life... life is a miracle and we lucky humans have the gift of a fleeting moment - a flash of creation being aware of itself. That we make up stories to comfort or control ourselves from going insane pondering our mortality is simply a function of coping with something we can not change or avoid. Every living thing, regardless of self awareness dies. And that simple fact is unacceptable and incomprehensible to the a mind aware of its own existence.

Every year, humans store more information. We are driven to do so, to preserve the 'past'.

Every year, humans make progress in science and philosophy. We will continue to do so.

It stands to reason that, unless we wipe ourselves out, humanity will evolve and eventually become masters of time, space, and consciousness. It matters not at all how long that takes, whether a hundred years or a million, when it happens, all time will be irrelevant.

What is to stop our evolved descendants from following the human imperative to know all things? To record and preserve all information... including all memory, all consciousness. Why not, in a vast and unfathomable database comprised of the very fabric of the universe itself, preserve all memory, all spirit?

What then?

It would mean that when 'you' die, you are really gone. The apparatus that allows you to form your unique perceptions and memories is, for all purposes, switched off like a light. It would mean that all you really were, ever, was our future divine self simply looking out through your eyes and ears into the life you believed was 'yours'.

It would mean that you have always just been God, perusing the vast database of life and knowing the lives of all things that ever experienced experience.

It would mean, due to the irrelevancy of what we think is 'linear time', that we could evolve, master time, space, and consciousness, and then create the universe itself which gave us rise.

The other possibility, should we fail and become extinguished, is oblivion. In which case... none of us will really care much about where we wind up... so why worry?

Of course, there is always the possibility that another race has beaten us to it...

didn't happen?

I used to think in terms of a few lives -- evidently many

think they've lived many, many lives --- maybe 100!!!

One of my favorite movies is "Defending your life" with Meryl Strep --

Also, notice in "Our Town" that there is an "after life" quite different

from churchy teachings.

We may exist without memory but we would not be aware of it. Thus without memory, it does not matter if we exist before or after. Reincarnation, heaven, eternal life, life after death... how many variations on a theme does fantasy take before we acknowledge we don't have a clue? Consciousness is a terrible thing to waste worrying about what comes before or after it. We are all here now - oh what to do! what to do!

is based on memory of the life you are living ---

presumably in most cases it is the lives you've lived previously which

are blocked from present memory. Though many people have claimed to

remember something of a past life. Many interesting examples of that

from Edward Casey to the young English mother who began a new life with

concerns for her five young Irish children after dying at an early age.

The impulse to find them and reassure herself was so strong that she

actually did follow thru and locate them.

Simply the evidence that all the major religions at one time taught

Reincarnation.

And, if you consider how that changes the way you may think about life

you come to understand why "Reincarnation" became inconvenient for

organized patriarchal religion.

Just because a lot of people say that it is true, that doesn't make it true.

Just because a lot of people say that it is true, that doesn't make it true.

Organized patriarchal religion used violence to wipe out the Old Religion

based on nature. Patriarchy had to nonetheless take on some of the beliefs of

pagans -- belief in Reincarnation seemingly was strong and the "new" religions

continued to have to teach it. All the world's major religions at one time taught

reincarnation. That is evidence of a long lasting belief system.

Clues to Reincarnation continue today -- tho they are, IMO, suppressed by organized

patriarchal religion.

Christmas was a pagan holiday -- many of patriachy's "saints" were former gods

and goddesses of the Old Religion. Those gods and goddesses continued on in the

Old Testament and in the Muslim teachings, tho with new identities.

Just because people believe it is true is not evidence that it is true.

Opinions are not evidence.

that there is no life after death and its an opinion that there is. No one has definitive proof so neither side essentially is wrong or right until they do. it is unknowable.
I have had evidence personally from my deceased family members that they are around me. they mess with things and give hints. That is my proof. I know we continue. that won't be anyone else's proof but I don't mind. Tens of millions of people have had these experiences and because of it, there must be some small point to it. It isn't from needing to see it that I do. I see it because it happens. And, in the end, that is enough for me.

Your opinion is no more impressive than the other poster who claimed to have evidence.

Just because your opinion is shared by a lot of people doesn't make it evidence.

Opinions are not evidence.

And by the way, the stuff you attribute to your dead family members was really the work of gnomes, leprechauns, and wood nymphs. At least that's my opinion.

out. you say that the anecdotal evidence some have of this sort of thing is definitively not true. Well, put on the table definitive evidence that your view is correct. If its so true, the evidence must be there. I would like to see it. My experiences are as true to me, as they are to tens of millions of people as anything. I don't expect you to agree that they are evidence and I wasn't putting them forward as evidence. Anecdotal is not the same as hard scientific fact. But you are advocating that there is nothing after death and advocating it so sharply that there must be empirical evidence at hand. I would love to see it.

These kind of questions are as interesting as it gets.

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.

One poster claimed to have evidence of life after death. Clearly all he had was an opinion.

You claimed to have evidence of life after death. Clearly all you have is opinion.

You can't even produce evidence that the soul exists, much less that it persists after death.

You made the claim, you present the evidence.

or doesn't exist ---

We are left to our understanding and experiences --

The experience of people suggests that they embraced concepts of

Reincarnation --- and the patriarchal churches attacking them were

still forced to pick up the issue of Reincarnation and teach it . . .

because it was that strongly in the consciousness of the people.

Today that consciousness is more limited because churches no longer

teach it -- it became inconvenient.

There is no way to prove Jesus ever lived -- or didn't --

But research and common sense suggest neither ever happened.

Gods and Goddesses of the past were esteemed notables --

that's all.

The Jesus myth introduces powerful criticism of the Old Testament

patriarchy and its first and only "one-all male god."

Jesus' "disciple to the disciples" was Mary Magdalene --

Can any of this be proven or called evidence. Of course not.

Prove to me that the sun will continue to rise all this week --

And all you offered was opinions.

The burden of proof is on you. If you have evidence, please submit your evidence.

If all you have is opinion, then you have no evidence.

Without evidence to support your claim, you're just another loudmouth crackpot with weird ideas.

The only reason you articulate for belief in reincarnation is that a lot of other people believe it. That may satisfy more gullible minds, but it's not evidence.

Remember, a lot of people also believed in Zeus and Thor. Are you as easily satisfied that they are real too? How many people have to believe it before you are convinced that it is real?

Would you like to buy a bridge in New York?

What I said is, I think there is evidence . . .

That's my opinion ---

Patriarchy and Patriarchal religions teach many things for which there is

no evidence . . . but that is "evidence" of something . . . their own fears,

their own darkness, their desire to dominate, etal.

Patriarchal churches taught Reincarnation because the beliefs were so strong

patriarchy couldn't overcome them.

Now - if you want to discuss reincarnation, fine --

If you want to play games, do it with someone else --

It was easy enough for me to read, why are you unable to read it?

"There is some evidence in regard to REINCARNATION . . ."

But there is no evidence for reincarnation.

And without evidence, you are just another crackpot with crazy ideas.

:crazy:

You are just making shit up because you don't want to admit that you haven't got anything but superstition.

The fact that a lot of people believe something means nothing if those beliefs have no basis in fact. Vast communities of people have been conclusively proved wrong in the past.

The fact that a lot of people believe something means nothing if those beliefs have no basis in fact.

We have little proof of anything in life -- medicine is wholly wrong --

"slash and burn" crap. Synthetic chemicals harmful to most of us.

Patriarchy and its organized patriarchal religion has been proven wrong --

at least to many of us.

We have little "evidence" that would put Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld in prison ---

does that mean the evidence doesn't exist -- or that they have not done the

things we well understand them to have done?

Where is the "evidence" that there were never any WMD in Iraq--?

Do we have firm evidence of that -- ?? Most of us understand that Bushco

was lying.

Do we have infallible "evidence" that more than 1 million innocent Iraqis

have been killed by US bombing and invasion? Yet most of us understand

that this is probably so.

On and on -- computer voting -- stolen elections . . .

Before the 20th century about half of us would have died as children and a good number of women would have died in child birth. Had our grandparents not been protected by modern vaccines and antibiotics, most of us would not be here today. So you are completely wrong about that and foolishly so. You really need to be more careful about what information you accept as accurate.

Without evidence, one simply has no reason to accept a proposed fact. Period. We can imagine anything. Without evidence we are at best ignorant. That ignorance is not a license to assume we know things we do not. Finding facts is hard and mass media including the internet is not the way to find them.

Religion has been disproved.

I don't know what you mean about we having evidence against Bush et al. It is the prosecutor who finds the evidence and the jury who weighs it. So, no, "we" do not have any evidence.

Likewise, the evidence that Saddam did not have WMD has to be demonstrated through documentation, witnesses and physical evidence. He did have at least chemical weapons at one time because he used them on the Kurds. I heard one guy tell me with a straight face that the absence of WMDs in Iraq proves that they have been moved to Syria. I could not quite get the idea through his moronic head that a lack of evidence is not evidence. One can not accurately infer that they are in Syria just because they were not found in Iraq.

I have no idea how many Iraqis have died as a result of the war and occupation. A million seems hard to believe. Maybe someone has reliable evidence on this, but I don't have access to it. Probability (as in "probably so") has to be based on calculations using actual data.

As far as voting fraud, the Conyers report following 2004 and the report of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission following 2000 pretty much lay out the case for that.

So I come back to my original point. Widespread belief is not evidence. Developing proof is hard and simply noting that a lot of people share a belief only proves that a lot of people share the belief.

The fact that a lot of people believe something means nothing if those beliefs have no basis in fact.

For instance, we have still had widespread belief in our American medical system,

though we rank 37th in health care, below Cuba.

The corruption of our medical system and government agencies is worsening that

situation. We are creating new diseases while rates of cancers are increasing

and autism is skyrocketing. The jury is still out on vaccines. Our antibiotics

have served to strengthen disease/viruses.

Anyone of intelligence understands that you can neither prove nor disprove the

existence of a god.

I don't know what you mean about we having evidence against Bush et al. It is the prosecutor who finds the evidence and the jury who weighs it. So, no, "we" do not have any evidence.

Can a prosecutor find evidence which has been destroyed or when witnesses are threatened

or murdered? How naive are you?

I have no idea how many Iraqis have died as a result of the war and occupation. A million seems hard to believe. Maybe someone has reliable evidence on this, but I don't have access to it. Probability (as in "probably so") has to be based on calculations using actual data.

Do you understand that we've been bombing the Iraqis for 20 years?

Do you understand the effects of depleted uranium?

Have you read reports from the human rights organizations on this subject?


As far as voting fraud, the Conyers report following 2004 and the report of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission following 2000 pretty much lay out the case for that.

If we have the evidence of voting fraud, then there would be convictions . . . right?

Or would there?

Or our first bath? Or the first time we walked?
Doesn't mean it didn't happen just because we can't remember it. But the events we can't remember do probably effect our personalities.

Because that's the logical extension of what you said about not remembering anything before this life. That's probably pretty close to the truth -- that after we leave here, we go elsewhere, in the same way that we arrived here and forgot where we came from.

Bummer. There's a saying about those who don't learn from history... how can we learn if we keep forgetting?

That once we die, neurons stop firing, the brain rots, and thoughts evaporate. So yes, when we die we forget we ever existed. The second part of your post seems odd, though in that you mix the living with the dead. History is only relevant to the living, the memories and records of the past are preserved in living minds... so we do have the capacity to learn from history as long as there is life that is intelligent enough to comprehend it.

BTW - I came across a very interesting and insightful post on another forum -

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=104494&view=findpost&p=943661

enjoy!

See the thing is, I don't equate neurons with life. I think of our physical bodies as vehicles only. The same way that my hard drive holds all my data, but it's very easy for me to transfer that data to a new hard drive when the old one is about to crash. Heck, I can even transfer the data to a flash drive that's not even a hard drive in the technical sense -- or disperse it all temporarily across the internet until I decide to reconstruct it again. Know what I mean? It's all ones and zeros, whether it's housed in a silicon chip or a carbon one.

which, btw, was at one time taught by all the major religions --

you understand that the concept is sufficient to change the way

you live life. The impact of that kind of thinking is why

Reincarnation became "inconvenient" for organized patriarchal

religion.

Not enough souls to go around:

Here's what I posted . . .

If you reflect upon the concept of Reincarnation . . .
which, btw, was at one time taught by all the major religions --

you understand that the concept is sufficient to change the way

you live life. The impact of that kind of thinking is why

Reincarnation became "inconvenient" for organized patriarchal

religion.

That was centered on the WHY of Reincarnation being inconvenient for elites/

patriarchy/exploiters.

You replied in a different direction --

but if one spirit can be created, why not billions?

that the earth was the center of the universe because it ain't frickin' true.

I'm not joking.

Death does not then concern either the living or the dead, since for the former it is not, and the latter are no more. ~ Epicurus

From Scientific American: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=never-say-die&print=true">Why We Can't Imagine Death

The New Testament teaches thaat we should live the life of Christ while we are on this Earth now. Whatever happens after we die should only be our concern if we are dead. While we are alive we should care for our brothers and sisters today.

good deeds and dying in a state of forgiveness are necessary . . .

in some branches of organized patriarchal religion.

Keep in mind that the Old Religion based on nature was violently taken from

the people. Though much of it had to be preserved. Christmas was a pagan

holiday. The Old Religion, of course, had no Satan which is an invention of

patriarchy and its own fears and distortions.

The Old Testament was written to cement patriarchy. Organized patriarchal

religion is patriarchy's underpinning.

And Capitalism as corrupt as patriarchy and its religion, invented by the

Vatican to run its Papal Sates when Feudalism was no longer sufficient.


Finally, capitalism promoted religion, the opiate designed to keep

the working class docile." Schrank/"Wasn't That A Time"


Meanwhile, all major religions once taught Reincarnation -- a concept which

became inconvenient for religion.

When people understand that they may actually live the lives they are creating

for others in another life time, they may be more careful of how they treat

the earth and others.

Has not every raindrop, at one time, been part of the oceans?

What exists between moments in time? What exists between particles of matter? What IS 'space'?

Are we each truly separate or are we as blades of grass?

Billions and billions of people have pondered this, many far more well-equipped than I to understand.

Nonetheless, I have my own experience and growing understanding.

I expect that when I understand I'll laugh.

:shrug:

After all, just what is "IS"?? What is the very essence of existence itself? Is-ness?

:applause:

This puts me in mind of the 11th chapter of the Tao te Ching:

Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub;
It is the center hole that makes it useful.
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful.
Cut doors and windows for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Therefore profit comes from what is there;
Usefulness from what is not there.


IOW, there's no such thing as nothing. At least not to our limited human understanding.

... and that passage is fascinating. :thumbsup:

Most days I wonder. Work, taking care of people worse off than I am, precious little sleep...it doesn't seem like it to me.

we kinda understand "nothing," however ...

"Life after death" would probably have many interpretations -- not necessarily

the fearful ones dictated by organized patriarchal religion!

Reincarnation seems to play out in memories of many --

There are tuplip bulbs still producing after 200 years!

Why would nature not recycle spirits?

I'd like to hear Richard Carlin's answers to this question ... miss him!

Dead means dead, gone, zilch.

As for the contrary assertion, that dead means not-dead, there is zero evidence.

Hope that helps.

Does it rejoin a universal spirituality?

And I don't mean any of that in a "religious" sense --

The advantage of doing away with such wishful fantasies that people (I) can live forever is the reminder that what we do for (or, in the worst case, to) is what is really lasting.

for instance, lives on. And in the hearts of all who believe in liberty.

I think the "spirit" of many individuals lives on in the many quotes

we see even here at DU every day. The words of notables carry their

"spirit." There's a "spirit" of revolution, is there not?



On the religious end of this, keep in mind that all the major religons

at one time taught REINCARNATION . . . until it became inconvenient for

them.

I think there is more to Reincarnation than "wishful fantasies" --

If you can be born once, what is the argument that it cannot happen again?

The spirit is a religious construct, not supported by any physical evidence. If you mean consciousness, that's easily interrupted. It's not a tangible thing like a piece of wood. It's more like music; it's the pretty sound our brain makes when it's running properly.

nor "spirituality" to be religious . . .

Legislation has a "spirit and intent" with which it is passed --

Words left behind contain the "spirit" of revolution and freedom,

such as our Constitution.

I certainly feel spiritually connected to the people of Iraq, tho

I am not Muslim -- but simply HUMAN.

Again, I am not religious but certainly consider myself to have "spirit."

When you discuss "religon," keep in mind it is the polluter of thought

and true spirituality.

And, in regard to religion, all the major world's religions at one time

taught Reincarnation as a concept -- until it became inconvenient for them.

All evidence would point to the existence of the human body and can show pretty clearly that when we die our body decomposes. The rest of us that is our personality is made up of tiny electrical firings in our brain and nothing more. Those don't fire any more when we are dead--again, pretty much shown through actualy evidence.

Everything else you are talking about requires you to prove because there is no proof for it.

rest is fantasy. I am seriously interested. I really am. People's ideas on this subject are really interesting to me.

each one of us will either find out that there is an afterlife, or never know that there is no afterlife.

I would have to assume that it would be devoid of time. If it wasn't, then you'd die all over again. The problem is that devoid of time, nothing changes. We would exist, but we would be words on a page (essentially), there but unable to even comprehend that we are there. Without time, ie. the progression from one stage to another, we cannot exist in a living form. So, could there possibly be a place where our everything is photocopied after we died? Sure. But why bother. No one can do anything with it. And, technically it would have to always have existed, because there would be no beginning or end as there is no time. Therefore, who's to say that we aren't there now? And if we are, what difference does it make? None, imho.

I've made other musings on deity before, but they are pretty wordy. If you're interested, enjoy: http://unwilling-dystopia.blogspot.com/2008/11/atheism-and-lot-more.html

effect it had on others. It would be a place of rest and contemplation where you could learn what you did and how to be better. it would include others, especially loved ones. The point of my life is to be good to others as best I can and do honor to my family by living up to the effort and ideals they had for me with all their sacrifices. I think I would get together at some point to check out the score card with them. That is my opinion. My spirituality is not contingent upon religion, which I think is the antithesis of spirit and spirituality.

No doubt.

if you can dig up some of his books.

months and months--maybe a year since she had died. i was riding my trike in our basement and turned to get off it when i saw her in the corner of the basement. she held out her hand and told me to come over and talk with her. scared the shit out of me. i started screaming bloody murder and started running up the stairs, tripping and falling like in a bad dream where you can't get away. my mom heard me and ran halfway down the stairs to get me. she thought someone was down in the basement trying to kill me.

i was hysterical as i told her and my grandmother who i saw in the basement and what she had said, what she was wearing, etc.

it scared me so much that i ended up blocking it from my memory and didn't recall it until i was about 12 years old. the memory came back nice and easy one evening when i was reading a book about ghost stories. we had long since moved to another house and i went up to my mother and grandmother and asked "didn't something happen to me when we lived at our old house?" "like what?" "something in the basement. it scared me." "what do you remember?" "didn't i see aunt winnie in the basement? after she had died?" "yes" and then we talked about it--i remembered it all.

sorry for the long story.

if it hadn't happened i would say that when a person dies that is the end. (although since we are made of energy and energy can't die...?). but because i saw and heard with my own eyes i would say yes, there is more to things than just this life. however, i am not a religious/christian person.

on edit: at that time, when i was five, my concept of a ghost was from the cartoons casper the friendly ghost. ghosts floated, wore all white like sheets, and you could see through them. not my aunt. she was dressed up and not transparent. and she was sitting on a couple wooden sawhorses my dad had in the basement--she wasn't floating.

brother-in-law, John, after he had been dead for years and years. We often, my sister and I, smell our grandma's carnation perfume when we are bummed. I hear ya.

There's something in the telling which makes it quite believable.

The only explanation I have for that is due to a loss in energy. m=e/c2
Where did that energy go ? What was it ? The soul? A "life force" ? I don't know and am not qualified to speculate.
Peace,
MZr7

It offers something on that experience --

evidently, we all become 25 or so again --

And, are you saying that spiritual energy is the same as "energy". . . ?

I'd suggest to you that the spirit of MLK, Jr. -- his words and actions ---

his spiritual energy live on to inspire us.

Just as the "spirit" of the civil rights marches and Freedom Riders still

inspire.

Master: How should I know?
Student: Because you are an enlightened man.
Master: That, maybe. But not a dead one.

It is a period we all go through, and I can only hope its less painful, umm less suffering, than this current period.

Peace,
MZr7

Maybe I'm just bored. :shrug:

Heh ... after lurking around here for far too long without posting anything (*shame on me*), I felt compelled to actually get a login and post something ...

Pro: I have experienced several examples of true 'psychic phenomena' ... and while tripping to the nth degree on a variant of DMT (which apparently was legal when I experienced it), believe I've experienced 'The Mind of God' for a few brief seconds. A few similar experiences have made me believe it's possible that 'life after death' might be a part of our existence. I say this as a 'skeptic' ... but if psychic phenomena can exist at all, then the possibilities are grand indeed.

Con: It scares the hell out of me that when given a general anesthetic for a dental procedure, I was *gone* while under anesthesia ... ie. no sense at all nor memory of existence during the operation. This in a sense truly scares the hell out of me.

There are some interesting studies floating around.

I have not done of what you speak but I have heard of common trips. The Processing room is what has been described.

I had a similar experienced when knocked out a couple times (accident, not anesthesia). The lack of any sensation, not even an awareness of nonsensation, makes me think that we really can be shut off.

and she had zero brain activity -- she was able to tell the doctors afterwards that she saw things happening around them and in other places. no brain activity, a separation of body experience that was verified. Now, if she had no brain activity, how did she know this was happening and could tell sceptical doctors what they were doing? Also, talk to coroners. They will tell you stories about life after death that are amazing.

they then move on to interpret that life as not life, but the result of

death! Somewhere in the sky. Yet what Jesus says is . . .

"Eternal LIFE."

...had a similar effect on me. I had always had a hard time imagining "not being" before that, it was hard to imagine myself as something that could simply cease to exist. Not after waking up from general for the first time, however, with the very odd feeling that between my last aware moment before the surgery and the moment of waking up afterward there was a big, gaping nothing that didn't have me in it.

I wouldn't say the feeling scared me, but it was surprising and a little unnerving. This first experience happened in my late teens before I'd fully become an atheist (although I was already starting to be fairly skeptical), but that experience probably helped move me more in the atheist direction.

As for your "true 'psychic phenomena'"... instead of thinking about those experiences as evidence of the supernatural, perhaps it would help to simply try to gain a greater appreciation for the amazing things a completely natural, physical biochemical brain might be able to do all by itself.

that all of us will find out one way or the other.

we won't be around to find out that there is no afterlife. Just a minor point.

At that time he was the director of the radiation therapy dept in a large hospital. One day as he was sitting at his desk with the office door open an elderly gentleman came to the door. The man was already changed into a patient gown. He said his name and that he was there for his follow up treatment. My husband told him to just have a seat in the waiting room and he would let the techs know. The man replied ok and walked off toward the waiting room.

A few minutes later my husband told the techs the mans name and that he was waiting.
When the tech went to get him he was not there. My husband walked to the waiting room and asked another patient sitting there if he had seen this man. No one had come into the waiting room at all.

Thinking the elderly gentleman was lost, my husband called his home. His wife answered the phone and to everyones shock the man had died 3 months earlier. The department had not been told and the man did have an appointment scheduled that day.

Another interesting note is the elderly man was wearing an old style patient gown when my husband saw him. These gowns had been replaced with a different style after the mans last treatment.

This went through the hospital like wildfire and the chaplain showed up.

He asked my husband if the man looked sick and my husband said no he looked very healthy. The chaplain said I hear this all the time.

Now I have to say my husband did not believe in ghosts and is the last person on this earth that would have believed this had it not happened to him.

I don't know what happens after death or before birth but I sure am not discounting an afterlife.

to say, the tiny nun who was present at all the deaths there for like centuries followed us to the waiting room and sat down next to me. she leaned over and whispered to me: "Have you seen anything yet?" I looked at her and asked what she meant. She said my mother was going to be making herself known to me.

My father, who died ten months earlier, had been doing that from the moment he passed so I knew Mama would do the same. That this tiny nun, who had been at more deaths than anyone I ever knew would ask me that tells me that the world is a far more interesting place than we know. If you open your eyes, you will see. I have and it makes me know that there is more to come. IMHO. In my experience.

That's what you'll go back to.

She was in the hospital, last stages of lung cancer. We were alone and it was one of the last conversations we shared. She ingenuously asked me "Where do you think we go when we die?" As you can imagine, the tenor of the question was somber, not academic. I told her we go to wherever we were before we were born. Not a straight line, but a cycle. That answer seemed to satisfy her.

No proof, but then again, no proof to the contrary that I'm wrong.

Is there consciousness after death?

We all know what happens to your "life" - by its definition.

While talking to a 3 year old just through out a little question, Who were you when you were grown up? You get interesting answers.

a friend's son went into hysterics (he was 2 @ the time) when he heard his daddy would be getting on a plane. The child started screaming, "No, don't get on a plane, you'll crash into a tower!" When the mom asked her son what he was talking about, he mentioned that he had jumped out of a building when he was a grown up. The child has a very high IQ & could actually carry on a conversation at that age. Guess what traumatic event he was born shortly after?

If anyone is interested in life after death, I suggest they look into books on out of body experiences. And, if you're interested in references to reincarnation that were removed from our Bible - try doing an online search. You can always take a few humanities or religion courses in college as well.

My mother and I agreed on a signal she would deliver if there were life after death. We agreed upon a signal involving an electrical malfunction, since that involved energy and seemed the most likely class of thing which could be impacted.

I received the signal twice -- once just before her death and a second time within hours after her death.

It brought a sense of great comfort to me, and brought peace at a time of great loss. Still could have been happenstance but it didn't seem so ...

Even though I can see why you wouldn't want to say what it was, since some people will just try to shoot holes in it. But still, I'm interested :)

. . . when our father died in January this year. He was a fundamentalist Christian, I'm agnostic, and my sisters are atheist. In discussing his religion and his believe in an afterlife, one of us, I don't remember who, said, "well, now, he either knows or he doesn't."

:rofl:

Oh yea babe, that's it . . . the answer to it all . . . "well, now, he either knows or he doesn't."

Who's to say whether eternal life is a boon or a bane?

I suspect more the latter than the former.

It's been known for thousands of years that only rarely does a great gift come without some significant strings attached, I'd be looking for the caveats on the eternal life contract myself.

Just something of a quasi-masochistic fan of dsytopias, I can think of some exceedingly unpleasant circumstances in which to spend eternity.

You really don't always get what you want.

Edited to add: Keep in mind that what may be pleasant for one person could well be torture for another.

Crusing forever in a Donk with a 10,000 watt stereo is some people's idea of heaven..

I have a hard time believing that Beethoven's ninth symphony was purely the result of a handful of chemicals interacting in a novel and transient way.

But I'm not religious.

The only people who expect "eternal" life are those with no conception of what the word eternal means.

I cant imagine staying as I am now without intellectual, ethical or spiritual (whatever that means)growth for the next 50,000 years and that's not spit in the ocean compared to eternity! I'll take joining with the all when I'm done here if I can have that option thanks.

Of course I plan on putting this whole question off for a long time by just not dying. There's a lot to do around here and I have too many hobbies already.

Yossarian .. Catch-22

I hope so.

...and then we'll have our proof.

Or not.

I have a couple of problems with the whole notion. First, of course, it doesn't make sense. Nothing lasts forever-- nothing. The only constant in the universe is change. The notion that your human consciousness will continue for eternity as galaxies die around you seems to me not only illogical but supremely arrogant.

Second, your life (and the lives of those around you) is precious, and fleeting. Telling yourself that you literally have eternity seems to cheapen that small amount time you actually do have.

We want to believe it because life is what we know.

all the major religions taught reincarnation at one time, until it became

"inconvenient." People who think they are likely to return to this planet

in another lifetime are somewhat more particular about what happens on the

planet now.

Tho, I'm not quite sure I'd want to live 100 lives or more -- ????

"Last night Chuang-tzu dreamed he was a butterfly. Or, was it a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang-tzu?" - Chuang-tzu about 400BC

"I'm not afraid of death. I was dead before I was alive and recall no discomfort." Mark Twain

but wondering about it truly separates us from every other living thing on earth

www.nderf.org
very informative. lots of good research. and yes, i see this 3 dimensional existence as merely a form one takes for a little time. i do not believe in death. only the body dies, like an old coat. otherwise, we always are.
'birth and death are not different states of being, but are 2 aspects of the same state of being.'

not proof.

Is the "life passing before your eyes" syndrome just a debriefing?

Who is your observer?

But all the arguments break down (both ways) when you remove "time" from the equation.

Also, when you think of the "universe", "cosmos" whatever as IT being what is alive and we kinda like "cells" then it gets weird too.....

we keep having to come back until we get it right, then when we "get it" we get to live happily ever after with the ones we love and we know peace and true happiness.

Do I have proof?

No - I do have a great many deja vue moments and I've met some very old souls.

Keep in mind, all the world's major religions taught Reincarnation at one

time . . . until it became inconvenient ...

nir⋅va⋅na   /nɪrˈvɑnə, -ˈvænə, nər-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. (often initial capital letter) Pali, nibbana. Buddhism. freedom from the endless cycle of personal reincarnations, with their consequent suffering, as a result of the extinction of individual passion, hatred, and delusion: attained by the Arhat as his goal but postponed by the Bodhisattva.
2. (often initial capital letter) Hinduism. salvation through the union of Atman with Brahma; moksha.
3. a place or state characterized by freedom from or oblivion to pain, worry, and the external world.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1830–40; < Skt nirvāṇa


Also keep in mind that this topic isn't to be mainstreamed to disrupt

everyday concerns . . . !!!

heaven

you get to know that peace when you finally get it right.

this life have to go through -Darfur, Holocaust, Mugabe, Congo, Iraq, AIDS- it would be useless in the point of our lives having meaning and there be learning for our souls if we went poof. What is the point of suffering if there is no place to go and contemplate how to make it stop happening over and over and then coming back and trying again? The universe would have a HUGE sense of humor if that was so.

unless you like to believe in myths.

There is not one shred of evidence to indicate that there is life after death.

It is an idea with absolutely no factual basis.

can die and then come back and tell us, no one can prove or disprove either side of this coin.

No evidence has ever been presented that there is life after death.

I don't have anything to prove. Only the people who claim that there is life after death have something to prove.

So, Prove it!

something that happened this evening. I felt really, *really* low tonight and I went and held my parents' urns. (My sibs want me to keep them in the house. It makes the house feel calm and like home.) I cried and talked to them, feeling very low. It makes me feel better to talk to my parents when I feel low. They were my rock and my heroes. I told them how awful I felt and my fears, the usual stuff when you mourn. (The house felt terrible until they were given to me and I keep them with me. Some might find that hard to manage but to me, it makes my house peaceful and calm. When I go, the three of us and our dogs are going to go to the river together. It was in all three of our wills.) After a bit, I spruced up the velvet bags that enclose them and looked at my mother's ring. When I put her urn back in, I felt something at the bottom that no one at the funeral parlor or anyone in my family said was there. They told me her ring and her urn was in the bag and this was the first time I opened it on almost two years. I reached inside and felt a small disk. Bringing it out, it was a small round granite like disk. On the disk, incised into the surface was the word "faith." I looked at the clock. It said 11:12 PM. A clock number with 12 in it was our agreed 'holy hour'. (Long and funny story for some other time.)

Why that moment? Because she could see I needed it.

Why now? Because she loves me still.

For me, there are no coincidences. For me, that was my mom reaching out to me and telling me it will be all right, I am not alone. I don't need other people to interpret things for me. I feel when people die. I knew my mother was going to pass months before it happened. This was my mother telling me she is with me and I can have faith in that. I never doubted it ever. I only miss their physical presence. Their spiritual presence I feel every day. I am holding that disk in my hand even as I type this.

I wish only peace on people who are searching. For me alone, I have assurance. You don't have to agree, cosmic debris. I just enjoy talking to you and the others about this.

RV, wishing everyone faith tonight here in what's left of America.

And all you have to offer is touching stories and emotional appeals, but no evidence.

There is nothing in your touching story that could not be easily explained by delusion.

We know that delusions exist. And we don't know that life after death exists. so it is clear that the more likely explanation is delusion.

As I said above, with out evidence you are just another crackpot with some crazy ideas.

about that you can sit and crank on people yet offer zero proof to back your side of this argument. Name one thing that insulted you. I didn't offer this to you as some kind of emotional appeal. I don't really care what you feel or think. It always amuses me that the side that believes there is life after death have to provide evidence and definitive proof and the other side doesn't. All you have put forward is your godlike belief that there is nothing more than this. That's hardly admissable in court now is it. You and I are in the same boat here. Neither of us truly knows, even though you sure seem to think you do. You have offered nothing, zip, nada. What a sad person you are for posting your remarks to me that included insults. That tells me all I need to know about you. Delusions. Crackpot. What a sad, sad person you are. Tell me PROOF that *you* are right. You haven't yet. I guess that is because you have to die to know for sure.

I wouldn't expect anyone to do that for this thread. :) Goodnight, Mr. Manners.

A good illustration is Bertrand Russell's famous Teapot Argument. Let's say that there is a teapot in orbit between the Earth and Mars. Let's say also that this teapot is so small that even our most powerful telescopes cannot detect it. The burden of proof with any such claim falls to the person who asserts it - they have to provide sufficient evidence to support it. That's how logic operates - otherwise all sorts of untestable and otherwise unverifiable claims would be taken as axiomatic. The tooth fairy would live in my apartment, and I would be the second coming of Jesus Christ. After all - you can disprove neither of those claims.

Were I to offer sufficient evidence, however - say offer analysis of fairy dust found in my fridge (oddly, not uncommon) or were to demonstrate my Jesusy super-powers by walking on water - then the burden would shift to the person seeking to disprove the claim.

With this situation, it is quite sensible to say that there is not really any evidence either way and at best all we can do is speculate. However, in such situations the sensible approach is to "fail to reject the null hypothesis", as they say in the sciences. That doesn't mean that there isn't an afterlife, only that it has not been shown to be probable.

So I have no evidence to support the claim you believe I made. Because I did not make a claim.

But you did make a claim. Until you offer evidence, your claim is meaningless.

Yet you seem to believe that by attacking me you won't have to offer evidence to support your own claim. It will not work. You can't make unsupported claims and sweep them under the rug by attacking those who don't accept your claim.

You seem to think I said a bunch of stuff that I never said. Is this more of your delusion? Tell me where I put forward "a godlike belief that there is nothing more than this"? Tell me what claims I have made that require proof?

You say that neither of us knows, yet you claim that you have evidence. So please present your evidence. Otherwise, you may as well be talking about leprechauns riding unicorns to the tooth fairy parade.

Emotionally, I want there to be life after death because the idea of people like Falwell escaping punishment for what they did galls me.

Rationally, I know there isn't life after death and I just have to accept the fact that, unfortunately, sometimes the bad guys win.

I asked a grief councillor once how she couldn't be angry at God, or whoever it was she put her faith in when her daughter died and she told me not to believe so would have driven her over the edge. I've been clinging to that same hope ever since.

You're presupposing that your consciousness exists independent of your physical form. I see no reason to believe that.

I'm saying that if you can be born once, why not twice?

IMO, spirit may be quite different from physical form and/or consciousness.

I am not speaking of "spirit" in a religous sense.

Though I would agree with Francis Assisi that animals each have individual spirits.

And I'm sure you'd agree that each human being has an individual spirit --

World keeps turning.

There is no evidence to suggest that a person's thought or identity can exist after he or she dies. So far, everything we know about how people think, feel and perceive things have physical causes. Granted, we do not know everything. Nevertheless, there is no means for someones personality to exist after expiration when all neurological activity ceases.

Let me ask you this. If there is a soul or whatever, that suggests there will always be a minimal level of consciousness at all times. If a person is knocked unconscious for whatever cause, why doesn't the presence of the soul maintain consciousness? The few times I was knocked out, I had no sensations. As I awoke, I slowly became aware of darkness, but when I was out, there were no sensations, not even an awareness of a lack of sensations. So why didn't I maintain a minum level of awareness from my soul? The most obvious answer is because there isn't any soul.

1) not dead yet

2) undead

3) dead dead

When I die, I'm coming back for your brains.

Before I was born there was a whole lot of nothing. I didn't exist. Why should I expect it to be any different after I die? :-)

You don't think there is a chance that you were someone else before. You are just a different version that has reacted differently because of the new labels and attachment to this life.

Before that I was a unicorn. And before that I was a leprechaun.

being a grizzly bear. They called me "Ben" I was on a tv show and everything. My life wasn't easy though. I was kept in a cage and had to do human tricks for food. There were times when I just wanted to tear peoples arms right off, but I figured humans would be afraid of my species for years to come so I stayed quiet. I still get angry though when I see guys with big beards and flannel shirts.

furry kid? Chaka?

Your parents started with their parents.

Your parents consumed food, which allowed them to grow into adults.

That food took it's matter from the earth, the sky, the oceans.

When you die, you become earth once again.

The cycle repeats.

If you do not remember that you were you, then what is the point?

And we all know how long dream states can appear to last...hours can be years

Does that count?

death (noun): the end of life.



No, there is not life after death. By definition. I wish all questions were this easy.

(To be less flippant, asking for absolute proof of pretty much anything is ridiculous)

and there's an afterlife for humans, I think there's an afterlife for all living things, including, but not limited to, bacteria and fungi and blue-green algae - and that the little Australopithecus afarensis tyke I use as my avatar survived bodily death too, along with every other animal or plant that has ever lived.

and give me verifiable evidence, I say no.

In other words when we die the brain stops working and that's it. Nothing else.

Having witnesses countless people die over a period of years I'm convinced there is nothing on the other side of death. We die. Period.

As a young adult, I believed in reincarnation.

I think the attraction of the idea of reincarnation is that it gives us justice. The good are rewarded and the bad punished.

I quit believing in reincarnation years ago. To me one argument against it is that if it was true for people, wouldn't it also be true for dogs, cats, cockroaches, etc.? I'm aware that some people do believe these creatures are reincarnated people.

One problem I have with any sort of belief in an afterlife is that sometimes it causes people to accept crap in the present life in the hope of being rewarded with pie in the sky by and by when they die, instead of working to make this life as good as we can.

Seriously.....this ain't all there is...not by a long shot.

:)