Does religion cause irrationality, or is religion a symptom of our inherent irrationality?

I think we're irrational by nature, what do you think?

Most Libertarians are atheists.

No faith, and no common sense.

Kind of a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" question.

I've always thought of religion as a tool man created to deal with things he couldn't explain. The Norsemen thought Thor was angry every time they heard thunder and lightning. Now the same Norsemen have meteorologists who can show that it's a reaction between two clouds.

But some people, in the face of all evidence, persist in irrational thought (God Made me in six days) despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary - so who knows?

Given that all religions are man-made (even on the assumption that God exists, which I do subscribe to), we can't help but project our inherent irrationality into everything we create. This would explain why most "gods" have the manners & morals of spoiled children.

Having faith is not the same as be a member of some man made, organized religious group. Organized religion takes the bible and uses it to control those who become members of that group. Far to many of these groups make up their own interpretation of what is in the bible, and claim it to be "God's" word, and make it into God's laws! It's human nature to want answers as to why they are here on earth and what their purpose is. Religious leaders use this and people who can't really think for themselves believe it, and follow those principals, no matter who irrational those teachings may be.

Religion is our attempt to explain what we otherwise cannot explain, which I believe is a symptom of our desire for rationality. One reason the Catholic Church, for example, stresses the virtue of Faith is because it doesn't come naturally and indeed is almost impossible for anybody who has been touched by the world outside the Church - so Faith is a challenge, a "gift" and a prize.

On the other hand, people who are totally sheltered from reality may grow up to believe total nonsense. Consider, however, that the way they are convinced involves some "rational" explanations, i.e. "You're here because God loves you." It ain't much of an explanation, but without any explanation nobody would believe it.

Badly written, because I've had three cups of coffee!

keyboard before under a half a gallon.

I'm at home. When I have a job, I am more like you! :D

Religion is an attempt to explain, and can be considered an attempt at reasoning.

I would argue that rational thought however does not come naturally to people, it is a discipline we learn, in order to channel our imagination and thoughts into limits defined by empirical data. Children do not tend to do this automatically, it must be taught.

But they do figure out at an early age that when Mommy disappears, she's not gone for good (I've done a bunch of studies in early childhood ed). Children also learn language, and many of the complex rules of the structure of language, through nothing but example. However, there are various explanations for both those phenomena.

I think you pose an interesting question, like the "born good or evil" one.

Memetic feedback loop.

I believe religion came about, at least partially, by our need to explain things. And, based on the number of societies that are religious, or at least have a history of religion, religion does appear to have conferred survival advantages.

That is my thought.

I think irrationality is independent. Just like sudden realizations.

But I'm thinking in a longer time spectrum perspective. When one starts discussing recent times only, and especially Americans, then irrational behavior is more systemic. Then it can be seen as more of a a symptom of a disease.

But in the normal human being, it's sporadic, unless the individual is neurotic. And we are all neurotic to some degree.

The more we distance ourselves from nature, the more neurotic we become.



These are all just off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts.

Our irrationality then is a function of modern life? Interesting.

Try being irrational around a saber tooth tiger. You only have a fraction of a second to respond, and rationally.

But now we have tricksters. Both political and commercial. Now you can be an unskilled driver, run smack into a brick wall, and an airbag will miraculously save your life. Now you can vote for someone who is your enemy, and think you did the right thing. Now you can watch Iraqis die and cheer it on. Now you can eat yourself into a 300 pound ball of blubber, and still survive. Try that when living in a natural world, and grizzlies would have a field day. But we killed the grizzlies. And it's not a natural world any more. We're in Sham-wow world now. Billy Mays replaces the poisonous snake. Karl Rove replaces the pterodactyl. Wait, Rove IS a pterodactyl.

If they are superstitious, unscientific, dogma-driven premises, the results will be likewise. If, however, they are built largely on inductive rather than deductive thinking...premises which start with honest, humble admissions of our "unknowing," and working toward greater knowledge and discovery...then it's rational, I think, to believe that these "religious" people can work together for good things instead of erecting walls and barriers to keep us apart. At least that's how I see it...at the moment, anyway.

Maybe just another way of saying, "garbage in, garbage out"?

For much of history, and even today in some areas, it's not so much irrationality but ignorance (in the non-pejorative sense). Humans psychologically crave answers and certainty. Where none exist, they will be supplied by non empirical and irrational means for the most part. Even in the supposed paragon of rationality of Golden Age Greek societies, some of the answers derived by pure rationalism were decidedly irrational - Plato's ideal forms being a great example. Sure they latched onto close approximations like Democritus and his atoms, but they also came up with truly weird ideas too.

Even now religions tend to work in the God of the Gaps. Few sane educated individuals think gods are responsible for lightning, but the gaps in cosmogeny allow them to see a place for their gods in creation instead. Again it's just a natural unwillingness to say "beats the hell out of me!" Unless you have an extremely and unusually tight hold on your own willingness to accept imagined answers to these questions, it is ignorance that drives irrational answers that in turn drives religion historically.

Now when you get into irrational behavior in today's world, then I think religion is more causal than symptomatic. Certainly irreligious folks can act irrationally, but the very concept of something more important than humanity, and something that is also invisible and undetectable that must be the highest law and authority, is just screaming for irrational behavior. Whether manipulated by venal charismatics (Jonestown etc) or simply an internalized excuse for self-motivated irrationalism (Rudolph etc) allowing that concept to stand - the idea that ephemeral faith can override human utility - is source one for much of the lunacy we see today.

Sure, religion is irrational, but there is no clear cause and effect relationship there.

I was just looking at Maslow's Hierarchy and I noticed that all the non-rational stuff was at the top of the pyramid. But so is a lot of very rational stuff.

Maybe we just have too much time on our hands.

Or maybe we are just meat balls in the great spaghetti supper in the sky.

Meat, Marinara or Alfredo?

Religion is the politicization of the natural non-rational creative faculties of human populations for the purpose of controlling, managing and harvesting material wealth, manpower and "psychic/psychological" resources by a ruling over-class. The non-rational aspect of consciousness is an essential component of human nature. Its function isn't to supersede or compete with the rational but supplement and enhance it by means of creativity, intuition and inspiration. Religion is a superfluous albatross about the neck of the human race. We'd do well without it.

Note: This conclusion is mine - arrived at through observation and life experience and isn't meant as an offense to those who believe differently.

what about popular religious movements from below. Such cannot be considered as means to extend control over a subjugated populace, as they are effectively out of that control, and indeed are often the targets of attempted suppression by TPTB. Might not some religious movements be considered a form of politicized resistance to authority?

I make a distinction between the "irrational" which I consider to be an aberration of the rational faculty, and the "non-rational" which I consider a legitimate modality of consciousness. Certainly there've been ground-up artistic and mystical sub-cultures that have embraced the non-rational as a guiding principle for self-identity and influencing changes in society without sacrificing rationality to any degree. Some have been more successful than others.

There's always a risk with shared ideology of any kind though. The risk isn't limited to movements of a religious nature. For me the question becomes whether or not such movements encourage the subjugation of the individual's sovereignty of mind to conformity to the group's expectations. Conformity to group-think by nature leads to irrational behavior.

On the other hand, religious imagery, if understood as a technology of metaphors can be a highly useful descriptive tool for working with interior creative and psychological states. Using the cultural artifacts of religious imagery as metaphors in one's way of ordering and communicating experience in itself doesn't constitute irrationality - but it's certainly proven a slippery slope for most people.

itself into the process of an individuals efforts to move through the form/content relationship of the human experience. A sense of the divine is arational. The term, as I understand it, means not rational, but necessary.

So, say a bunch of people live in the shadow of a volcano. Their individual need to find meaning in their lives and an understanding of their place in the world leads them to revere that volcano. It gives them collective cohesion and a sense of social purpose. That's religion. It becomes irrational when somebody comes up with the bright idea to start flinging virgins into it.

Wouldn't it be better to give the volcano the community jerk-offs?

Thank you for your analysis, it is very interesting.

We WANT some things to be true. Everyone does.

I think there are religious people who have a tendency to let the mystical irrational stuff take over but I also think that the rational and irrational self can live in the same religious person.

The key is for the person to be able to turn the rational/irrational switch from one "setting" to the other when appropriate. I think religion can be a very dangerous tool for those who have problems being rational when ratonality is needed.

The danger of being unable to control our "switch" seems to be one of the major problems in our world.

...but also that religious indoctrination reinforces irrationality, so they both help support each other.

n/t

understand the supernatural?

If so it should not be surprising that such efforts appear to be irrational from a natural world perspective.