The Coming Evangelical Collapse

Source: Christian Science Monitor

We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.

Read more: http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

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To paraphrase . . . to hope, perchance to dream.

because anything the rest of us do to hurry it along will just make them cling to it that much harder.

because it is just so much fun to watch.

The only good fnord is a dead fnord

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanentize_the_eschaton

on edit: immanuel vs imminent

From "Airheads"

Chazz: Who'd win in a wrestling match, Lemmy or God?
Chris Moore: Lemmy.

Chris Moore: ... God?
Rex: Wrong, dickhead, trick question. Lemmy *IS* God.

Link here http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101389895


Bart was from a very evangelical background and went to Princeton Theological Seminary. While he got his masters and maintained his hardcore conservative background, work on his Doctoral thesis changed him completely. Now he is an agnostic. He also believes that he is a more moral human being.

The interview is fascinating and I highly recommend it.

I witnessed and experienced similar transformation (although from a more traditional liberal church background) when I attended PTS.

along with 1 by his mentor Bruce Metzger and they are all fascinating books. Dr. Ehrman is an outstanding theologian.

is more like a collective work of history, full of political and regional influences, than it is like the word of any one god. To blindly accept it as truth is foolhardy at best.

They wrote the books in such a way they can be twisted to fit so many needs. That is what allows so many preachers to use the bible to convince so many to follow blindly.

and pressing contemporary issue. There has been a tremendous amount of Textual Criticism that has been done to reconstruct what the point of the book was. Luke, for example, was trying to appeal either to a public official or to a group of opinion makers; Matthew was trying to establish a teaching syllabus for the next generation of Christians, who would never meet anyone who had personal contact with the historical Jesus.

I wish evangelism was gone NOW.

"...the future of our movement holds many dangers and much potential." According to the author, they aren't going away.

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Evangelicalism is a simplistic form of Christianity that does not sustain close examination. A full Christian faith requires close study of scripture with all its contradictions, inconsistencies and plain old baffling :wtf:.

How can you know "what would Jesus do" if you haven't actually studied what he did?

No religion sustains even moderate examination.

The churches that actually give a shit about formal Bible criticism (eg. Roman Catholic, Anglican/Episcopal, non-Evanglical Lutheran, Old Catholic, Orthodox) and actually have a coherent theological process (eg. Catechism) are still viable and will be the ones to pick up the pieces after the "happy for Jesus crowd" have collapsed.

In the end, that simplistic "Jesus is my best buddy" stuff doesn't satisfy.

There really isn't a lot that's simple about religious belief. Those who can't who don't want to examine it closely will probably grow tired and fade away.

I think you may be misinterpreting the E in ELCA, or at least I hope you are.

I still struggle with the way Luther's Catechism is taught. It's wonderful if taught as part of the history of the church, as part of our indentity as Christians - but as dogma to be believed in or else? As some sort of absolute truth? That's the way it's been taught for generations and I have parents that want their kids taught the same way they were - then they wonder why their kids vanish from the church once confirmed or soon thereafter never to return.

...you tease.

world are so fucking great it will take a long time to heal.

But this is GREAT news!!!

Ever since Obama's win, I smile more and more in direct opposition to the outright horror I had with each passing day of the past eight years under those WAR CRIMINALS!!!

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Let's hope this is a harbinger of a worldwide collapse of manipulative fundamentalist movements everywhere.

I just hope, in the coming difficult times, something more virulent doesn't rise in the vacuum created by the implosion.

in my Dad's family.. Christmas is rough. Wish this trend would catch up with them.. Robertson and Rush.. = Oh what a Christmas..

Facts? We don't need no steenkin' facts!

You just can't fight science and win. True science looks reality straight on. Scientists rigorously examine their own thoughts and ideas and repeatedly compare assumptions, expectations, hopes and dreams to -- reality, empirical reality, remaining ever open to redefining just what that reality is. Science is methodical, disciplined curiosity.

Science is compatible with the personal sense of awe of the universe, of what we understand as "creation," but it is not compatible with religious dogmas and especially not compatible with the emotional but vague religious dogma of evangelicals.

As the home-schooled children of evangelicals grow up, explore information and discover science, the whole evangelical house of cards will collapse. The rediscovery of science will free evangelicals.

Interesting. I've been thinking that will happen when the first eco catastrophe happens.

The superstitious will see that as a spirit based event but realize that they're worship in the
wrong way. They'll start worshiping scientists and engineers. This will lead to a new
polytheism and the change in clerical garb from the frills of our time to the lab coats of tomorrow.

Neptune is heating the oceans up, and this will kick the entire globes ass.

We are on the verge - within 10 years - of a major build-up of intellectual citizens. This build-up will follow the deterioration of the manipulative whack-job world and it will fundamentally better the religious and cultural environment in the West.

That's how I'd write it anyway. :evilgrin:

Because I'd be willing to bet anything it has nothing to do with the words of Jesus Christ. We seem to forget that humans can take anything that stands for beauty, truth, morality, peace, tolerance, acceptance, pacifism and love and take it and turn it and pervert it into something it's not-ie. what Conservative Right Wingers have done to Christianity. The only ones to blame for the destruction of Christianity are the 56% of republican voting base who call themselves evangelicals. As a Christian, I hope I can forgive them someday but someone who has faith in God needs not worry about staying fearful or angry so maybe I have a chance. Before you all start feeding that part of yourselves that takes comfort in human judgment, approach Christianity with the same zeal and passion an intellectual liberal would use for any subject and READ FROM THE SOURCE. Right Wing Evangelicals make the mistake of passionately misrepresenting something they know very little about; CHRISTIANITY. Don't make the same mistake. If you want to know about liberalism, who do you read? Howard Zinn and Naom Chomsky or Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh? If you want to make a sound judgement on what Christianity is, READ THE WORDS OF CHRIST in The New Testament. For the mere fact that you believe in Liberal principles means you are more a Christian than you realize and certainly more than any Conservative Republican.

as a non-believer in the mytholgy of the bible, but I find myself behaving like a believer anyway. I act more Christ-like in my daily life than so-called Christians. I do believe in his morality but I don't believe in his divinity. I never read anything in the bible that couldn't have been cooked up by the people that wrote it when it was written. I also appreciate the literary contributions of other writers and philosophers and I think everyone would be better off if they opened their minds to the many other ways of viewing humanity and the universe than just one book that purports to be the be-all end-all of all morality and human understanding.

I pseudo-Christian believes in Christ's divinity but not morality whereas you believe in His morality but not divinity. I think the writing of other authors and philosophers can do more than co-exist with scripture; I think in many cases they compliment each other, intentionally and inadvertently.

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That's my point. It like how some Conservatives base what liberalism is by the "Jamestown" massacres which is completely absurd. Whenever we base anything on those misrepresenting it, we never find its true meaning. Angry Right Wing Evangelicals live very contradictory toward Holy Scripture but we still base Christianity off of angry right wing evangelicals and others who pervert it's original meaning; it sucks.

I understand most of what Jesus teaches is exactly what you said it is. However, do you think Jesus would have approved of what Paul did by taking the religion outside of Judaism? Anyway, the fact that Jesus still supported the LAW is enough to vaporize his teachings and leave open the door for 2000yrs of horrific brutality! The Republicans are horrible today but are choir boys compared to the rest of the history of Christianity. Why not love your fellow human being for being human rather than bc <1% of a very old book says to?

It would have been something else. Hitler used both Christianity and Evolution to brainwash a people a commit some of the worst evils known to man. Humans can take anything. Do I think Jesus would approve of Paul taking the religion outside of Judaism? Of course! Christ hung out with murderers, protistutes, pagans, thieves, ... and showed them all love and gave them the message instead of casting them out. Do you think he would have stopped that treatment for those outside Judaism? And who cares if He supported the law? Don't you? or are you an anarchist? :-) It's cool if you are but there are plenty of intellectual non-believers that see the logic in supporting the law. How pissed off were you when you found out Bush was using the constitution as a piece of toilet paper?

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Among the Jews there was only minimal acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah. I believe that the most interesting aspect of the development of Christianity was the beliefs of the Jewish followers of Jesus called the Ebionites. For example they rejected the virgin birth and his divinity.

I regard Christianity as it developed among the pagans as little more than an adaptation of Jesus to their mentality and not significantly different than the mystery religions that were so popular with the masses. Hadrian wrote that while on a visit to Alexandria (A.D. 124) that he had observed adherents of Serapis and Jesus, "Those who worship Serapis are Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are vowed to Serapis."

It wasn't much of a stretch to replace the nature goddess whose worship, originating in ancient Egypt and extended throughout the lands of the Mediterranean world and that became one of the chief religions of the Roman Empire with the Holy Family of Mary, Joseph and Jesus. The worship of Isis, together with that of her brother and husband, Osiris, and their son, Horus, that resided along with Christianity lasted into the 6th century. In fact some of the original idols of Isis holding Horus were used in Christian processions honoring Mary as mother of the god baby Jesus.

The Beatitudes explain perfectly why I'm liberal.

For me it started with Donald Miller "Searching For God Knows What" and "Blue Like Jazz" then I decided to give the bible a chance. While reading it I realized I was completely wrong about Christianity all the years I considered myself an agnostic.

it's pretty good-- written by a Christian. Sounds as if you just read the last line of the OP and got mad.

and I agree with most of it. If I seem upset, I'm just expressing what I've felt for years toward republican evangelicals. Christianity is starting to decline and as much as they'd love to convince everyone that it's the "left's" fault; they're the only ones to blame.

Just his idiot followers.

I really don't mean to come off offensive. I'm upset but at right wing evangelicals and have been for years and this article is why. I'm more liberal than conservative and am a registered democrat so I am used to anti-Christian rhetoric. As much as they blame the ASLU, liberals, gays, secularists, ... the right wing are the ones who've contributed more to the demise of Christianity than anyone else.

take up swords.Don't get married. Sounds like an irresponsible shitty way to live to me. Anyway, any words attributed to little Jeebus were written decades after anyone who saw him was dead.

There are many things in the bible that were not intended to be taken so literaly. Kind of like the difference between "turning the other cheek" and "being a pacifist" -they're the same thing but taken literally they are not. Jesus's words on acquiring a sword are a sign of the conflict and opposition which the disciples will face. As far as "not getting married" he was speaking of the worldly and the unworldly. He did, in the same passage say "People of this age marry and are given marriage". All I'm saying is keep an open mind and if you're going to assess something, make sure you're versed in the topic and not some angry talking points.

:toast:

A lot of people will turn to God in the coming years, for lack of material wealth in which to drown their troubles. It's not among the poor that atheism flourishes.

because a lot of Christian charities refuse to help poor people who don't convert?

so it follows, with so many poor and not so intelligent Americans "god" has no worries about being forgotten, his only threat is from a rival "god" that may materialize.

But I'm not the only one.

:hi:

Dont get me wrong, I wish that Fundamentalist Christianity would experience a major collapse today, and take all the other religions with it. It just seems like they have played this same old "oh Christmas is being attacked" song.

Preach on!.
Seriously, the members of this sect that allowed themselves to be co opted by Republicans have done a lot of damage.
I'd like to see their rapture wishes granted today.
I just can't see how they get from "Praise Jesus" to "Torture Moslems".
I don't begrudge them their dreary life style.
But I can not allow them to force it on others.

Dogma is more important than facts. Framing the debate is more important than policy. Demonizing the other side is more important than working things out for the common good. Their radicalism worked synergistically, and it helped both groups for awhile but was doomed to fail both. I'm a Christian and I stood back and watched the marriage of fundementalist religion with a fundamentalist political movement with abject horror. It wasn't a good match up for anybody and it was a tragedy for our country.

Let the bunch of screw ups enjoy what they have brought upon all of us.

but it needs to happen sooner. Religion in its current form has been holding the country back from achieving true greatness for too long.

It was very good, and there was a lot of food for thought in it.

of the political movement as a meaningful force, not the faith, which he expects to manifest in a different form, specifically in the Catholic and Orthodox traditions.

His position, which I agree with, is that once faith is reduced to political slogans and positions, it is doomed. Over the long haul, this has generally proven to be the case.

I was in a Borders book store cafe a while back, by myself, at a table where
I was reading a copy of the New York Times. A woman comes up to me, does a slight
'come on' thing...and I invite her to sit--my mistake. Oh, you're reading the Times, she says,
and makes small talk, and then, she launches: Jesus is our only hope for being saved
and her church is just up the road, and here is some literature, etc. I was nice, because
what else could I have done. I hope these evangies crawl back into the cave they
came out of and we never hear from them again. They are part of that 'love the fetus, but
let the child starve or be homeless' crowd. I detest them.

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They twisted religion into a political movement, and made that political movement into a nasty, hate-driven ideology. The backlash against that, ironically, is toward traditional Christian values, which are and have always been extremely liberal. Jesus Christ embraced sinners of all types. He was the archetype of tolerance. He opposed capital punishment. ("Let he who is without sin . . .") He favored the poor, not the rich. ("Easier for a camel to pass through the eye of needle than a rich man to enter Heaven.") The only thing that really made him angry was money-grubbing in the Temple. (What would Jesus say about investment bankers?)

If Christian churches want success, they need to divorce themselves from the Republican party.

You have no idea how much relief sweeps over me when I know there are people out there like you who still get it. WELL SAID! Every word is spot on. Thank you.

These guys have really done a lot of damage to the reputation of anyone who has spirituality as a part of their life. They have also done incredible harm to our country, countless human lives, and the world. They are now destroying their own belief system.

I hope morality conquers hate. It appears that hate can do a lot of damage, but can't stand on its own.

Yates wrote about this collapse a long time ago. Thought the poem explains what happened to this movement. It is almost prescient.
William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)

THE SECOND COMING

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Two of the beneficiaries will be the Roman Catholic and Orthodox communions. Evangelicals have been entering these churches in recent decades and that trend will continue, with more efforts aimed at the "conversion" of Evangelicals to the Catholic and Orthodox traditions.

This would make the landscape interesting to say the least. A wealthier RCC with more members may not be the result many here are hoping for.

•The emerging church will largely vanish from the evangelical landscape, becoming part of the small segment of progressive mainline Protestants that remain true to the liberal vision.

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must be feeling hated, persecuted and abandoned by his fellow evangelists - based on some of the stuff on his blog (linked at the end of the article).

and the rest of the religions follow

... we could all find ourselves forced to submit a daily list of confessions to Tom Cruise.

:sarcasm: