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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:13 AM
Original message
I'm comfortable with the theory that if you treat animals well you
are a good person.

It appears to make very sound day-to-day policy regarding other living things.


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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'm not sure that's always true.
For example, Hitler is said to have loved dogs.

However, I think the converse is true: people who treat animals badly are unquestionably assholes.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Humans are animals as well....
So the "seeming" exception proves the rule, I'd say...
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Hey -- this just might work out!
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alsame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. A quote from Mahatma Gandhi:
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Love it.
Thank you.
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alsame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. You're very welcome. It's one of my favorite quotes and I love to share it. n/t
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Howler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Well then.
Sorry but This country is in alot of moral trouble then.
I have seen some horrifying treatment of animals who are raised for food on video's.Shameful!!!!
We really need to change our processes.Animals are sentient beings.
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. It's more than a theory, IMO.
Since, as pointed out upthread, we are all animals, treating fellow animals and other living things (I count the Earth and her bounty) with respect is what life is really all about.
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
7. I've pretty much believed that my entire life
And I have no use for anyone who mistreats animals.

No matter what else they may have going for them.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. tularetom, if Schweitzer were with us still, you and I should buy him
a cold beer.


:thumbsup:
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
8. I don't know. I love animals and would never hurt one intentionally
I can't say the same about "Long Pig". I don't like most of them very much.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. In the interest of full disclosure, I am seriously creeped out by
the character 'Roger' in William Golding's LORD OF THE FLIES.

One of the few 100% sadists in all western literature.

A serious creep job.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
12. And I've got some swamp land to sell you!
If you look at it in the dry season, it looks like a great place to live. But only looking at it some of the time would not show you how deep the water gets.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I'll buy it, sight unseen.

- - -

"I got some oceanfront property in Arizona
From my front porch you can see the sea
I got some oceanfront property in Arizona
and if you'll buy that I'll throw the Golden Gate in free."

-- from George Strait's "Oceanfront Property"

- - -
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
14. So only those of us that are vegetarian
are good people?
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
15. What a bout people who like to fish?
Are they evil? Or people who do animal experimentation are they all Natzis?Life is not black and white. I know people who LOATHE animals but are good people.
The only thing I can add is YES there is a correlation between people who deliberately torture animals as children and the likelihood of them becoming serial killers as adults.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I grew up fishing, TZ.
I don't fish now. It is less a heraldic ethical decision, though, than a matter of being happily distracted by art, and travel, and screwing.

For what it matters, I still have my collection of Fred Arbogast Hula-Poppers, of which I like the chartreuse green one the best.

My OP doesn't attempt to cover every soul and every situation. I just find that people who treat their pets well, or horses if you like, or even wolves from a remote film lobby as Robert Redford narrates, to be good folks whose company I enjoy.


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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
18. By way of example, I would say that shooting wolves from planes and copters
is cowardly and brutish, not that anyone who was ever Governor of Alaska would ever, like, DO that, and that the Buddhists in Arizona who drove to New Orleans to round up and comfort abandoned dogs would be practicing what they preach regarding compassion.


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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I read in another forum this morning..
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 02:41 PM by Why Syzygy
Seems so far in AK and FL it's legal to take an animal as a lover. :eyes:

Link:
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/newsreader/story/730206.html

LAWMAKERS CONSIDER OULAWING BESTIALITY (The Associated Press): Alaska lawmakers are considering a bill that would make it a criminal offense to have sex with animals. Thirty-five states already have laws prohibiting acts of bestiality, many of them classifying it as a felony.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well thank God Florida and AK are swiftly moving to rid America of
this prevalent and pervasive menace.

Not a day goes by when we don't see this sort of thing in our parks, our college campuses, across the wheatfields and down in the river valleys, and lo, in offices and warehouses as well.

Since the economy and health care are in such spci-and-span shape, the States can turn their attention to the real subversions in U.S. culture.

And thank God Anita Bryant lived to see this.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Guess they don't teach abstinence to the moose..
or issue condoms!
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. LOL!
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
21. Well, I think I'm a pretty good person
And I don't advocate mistreating animals. But I'd just as soon not have to treat with them at all. Pets are definitely for someone else.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Which is cool. Everyone should be allowed to decide if they
want close interaction with critters.

To be frank, I'd preferr a friendly dog to say, a deadly spider of the sort found in that load of bananas this past week.

There are interactions and then there are interactions.

Happy Saturday to you. :hi:
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Well, I have to confess
my feeling toward bugs and spiders is simple: in my house, and you're dead. Keep to our respective boundaries and we'll get along fine, you nasty creepy-crawly things!

Happy Saturday back at you!
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
23. Not JUST animals
Children, the disabled, the frail elderly, or anyone else who is potentially defenseless against someone bigger and meaner.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. We don't have numbers high enough for the times you make good
sense on these boards, Lydia Leftcoast.

I'm on board with your version, definitely.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Absolutely
Anyone who can be cruel to a child - I think you can pretty well write them off.

(And as I am with animals, this is not a dig at those who don't wish to HAVE children - it's at those who would mistreat them).
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MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #23
39. Aren't those animals too?
They're human, right? Humans are animals.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Yes, but the OP was specificallty talking about non-human animals
:-)
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
29. Are people who order lobster at a restruant good or bad?
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 03:28 PM by ZombieHorde
Lobsters are usually boiled alive, a cruel death.

What if someone does not eat or boil lobsters, but gives their money to businesses which do boil lobsters alive?

eta: Oh yea, I made a http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5299932">sneaky poll concerning lobsters and some kids who beat some cats to death, please vote if you enjoy polls.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I really wish I had the knowledge to eat kosher.
It appeals to me more as I *mature*. My roommate eats a huge amount of pork. bleah
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
31. So am I!

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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Can't blame Fido for his master's nasty tricks.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. I wouldn't blame Blondi for a thing. Her master did love her and treat her well, though.
:shrug:
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. I can understand that the most unstable soul can at least
theoretically have some compassion for a dog, certainly.

Would that it had extended to human beings generally and the Jewish population of Europe especially.

The scope of Hitler's atrocities was likely more vast and earlier manifest than genocide, at least if we believe his lust for control is the source of that genocide. I often take the word 'evil' too casually if I think that Hitler's megalomania was anything less. I had the chance to see TRIUMPH OF THE WILL, the Leni Riefenstahl propganda film which Hitler had commissioned. Very disturbing stuff.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Fair bet the dog
was unflinchingly loyal, which is what a narccist like Hitler would have been looking for in anyone and anything around him.

How much of our cruelty is the result of unreasonable expectations of others?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Good question, and I agree that the dog was likely loyal in the way
that dogs are.

The dog isn't any more political than to hope it is fed and cared for, etc.

Hitler may have treated the animal properly because it was the only thing that did not represent indefensible violence in his psychological landscape. From accounts, I'm guessing that the man was unstable long before he rose to power in Germany, and became exponentially more acutely unstable and dangerous as his power increased.

The dog may have received his last remnants of emotional kindness because it didn't represent any conflictual landscape. It was just a dog.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
37. Brought my son to a Ringling Bros. circus performance today
I felt bad for the animals. They might be very well treated (I don't know) but the use of animals in these shows just seems "unkosher." The use of human-only events would be sufficient to make the show entertaining.

I have to confess that I was actually waiting for a tiger to "go tiger" during the performance.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Good post. The tigers in a circus are amazing in and of themselves and
not because someone in a sparklng sequined outfit is getting them to jump through a hoop.

I confess to have often had the same impulse -- I see the tigers (or elephants, etc) and realize that they're a several-hundred pounds or so wild critter and a worthier thing than what's asked of them in a circus or on a Las Vegas stage.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-23-09 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
40. What about plants?
Edited on Mon Mar-23-09 11:43 AM by cosmik debris
Why discriminate against an entire Kingdom of creatures?

Is it worse to torture baby fur seals than to torture baby spinach?

Torture is torture, salad is murder!

And what about single celled animals? Do they get the same treatment as multi celled animals?

How many cells do you have to have to get some respect around here?

:)
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