"Reading the Bible saves lives" ...Hanging on the wall in a physician's exam room...

Go figure. :shrug:

:sarcasm:

I don't think religion should mingled in with professional services. Would make me wonder about their overall judgement, frankly.

... the for-profit health care industry loves it. :shrug:

... too far to the left.

(and your for profit insurer a bigger part of the problem than your for profit provider)

You'll probably find your claim denied.

I'd leave that office so quickly it'd make the doc's head spin.

And I'd dare them to try and charge me for the visit.

A very liberal interpretation would allow for some logical truth to that statement. A person who has a worldview that makes them comfortable will tend to be less stressed...which is good for overall health.

...but I don't think that's what the poster on the wall was trying to say.

That doctor needs to exercise his faith by not billing you, but trusting that Jesus will come through for him.

LOL

Suppose someone had the choice of staying home and reading the Bible or going out surfing on the hot lava of an erupting volcano? Case closed.

I put it in my breast pocket.

Some time later, I was walking down the street when a berserk evangelist heaved a Gideon Bible out of a hotel room window...

Bible would have gone through my heart if it wasn't for the bullet.

-- Woody Allen

There are stories of folks in hotel rooms with guns in their hands ready to end it all and they find the Bible in a drawer. Somehow, it gives them hope to live. There are folks who are alcoholics and are drinking themselves to death who find some way through faith, to stop the disasterous habits.

Now whether that should be hanging on a physicians wall is another question altogether.

single one.

you don't think anything like that has ever happened? You don't even have to approach it religiously, but just pure odds are that at some point reading a Bible has stopped something bad from happening. If I can accept that sometimes people read the Bible and do bad things, can't you accept that sometimes people read the Bible and don't?

You said that there are stories about people planning to commit suicide but stopping after finding a Bible in a hotel room or something.

I say that those stories are almost certainly made up by someone trying to make a point. Either they need a "testimony" for some reason, or they're making them up to press some point they are trying to make.

I've "heard" those stories, too, along with the ones about people suddenly giving up lives of crime or drug addiction, or alcoholism after "finding" the Bible somewhere. Again, I've seen no evidence that any of those stories are true. They're great stories, though.

That's why I asked. And you have no answer for me. You ask me to imagine that they must have happened. Sorry, but I don't deal with imaginary things. If such a thing has happened and there's some sort of evidence for it, I'd love to hear it.

All sorts of people read the Bible. Even atheists like myself. In fact, I've read it, cover to cover, many times. I've discussed it with prominent religious figures. I often find that many devout Christians don't know it nearly as well as I do.

So, if someone asserts that finding a Bible in a hotel room caused someone not to commit suicide, I'd like to hear from a firsthand witness to such a thing. Can you supply that, or should I just "imagine" it happening because the odds are that it must have happened...sometime...somewhere...to somebody.

are printed on nice thin paper that is excellent for use as a sustitute for rolling papers, in a pinch.

Or so I've heard.

after the bibles helped them somehow.

But I know you don't care.

If you know them, get them to post their stories here.

I'm sure that Gideon Bibles, like all Bibles, have helped some people. The stories I simply don't believe are the ones about a suicidal person changing his mind after checking into a hotel to commit suicide. There's even one prominent evangelist who claims that happened to him, but I doubt that any such stories are true. Exaggeration isn't uncommon out there.

My objection is to folks who say, "I heard" something or another, but who can't say who they heard it from or where they heard it. Such statements are evidence of nothing at all. If they provide a link, then I can go look at it. If they provide a name of someone, I can search for it. If they just say they've "heard" of something, that's meaningless.

I've "heard" of people being abducted by space aliens, but I don't believe them either.

It is his place of business, he has the right to put up a poster or plaque with his belief systems. If people don't like it, they can go somewhere else. Honestly, being a Christian myself, I would be happy to go to a Doctor that I knew was Christian. Our family Doctor attended our church and would always ask if we would like prayer after a Dr. visit. It made the experience much more comforting and personal. (We do have free speech in American, remember?)

Of course it is his right, as much as it would be his right to hang up a poster saying "sticking a finger in your ass cures asthma" on his wall. The question raised here (I suppose) is whether that speaks for his qualifications.

I wouldn't go to a doctor that had religious stuff up in their office.

"In God We Trust" in the classrooms...plaques distributed by the district office. No lie...
:shrug:

For many reasons actually.

Is it the sentiment or the placement that makes you question his professional competence? And in either case, why? Can a believer not be bright?

where science is supposed to save lives...not a religious book.

what bothers you? If he took the thing down, and you suspected he still believed it, would you still have a problem? And why, so long as there is not a MEDICAL reason why he isn't a good doctor? You're all saying to judge by science not a book, so if he does his science right, why judge him by a book? Or a sign?

The doctor has a stupid thing on his wall. I told DU about it because it's stupid. Whether he's a good doctor or not...I don't know. He's not my doctor. He's my grandmother's and she likes him.

I don't know if he believes it or not...I do wonder since he has the thing hanging on his exam room wall. Why would he put it there? Maybe his intention was to have a message to say the bible can be comforting. Sadly, that is not the case and considering I live in the bible beating south, I'm not surprised.

If I needed to see a doctor in his field...I wouldn't choose him because of this.

And if I hadn't wasted minutes of my life trying to get you to answer simple questions that, obviously, are completely beyond your ability to answer. A two-year-old indeed. I've gotten more logical responses from my mate's six-month-old. At least her crying has a direct correlation to something she needs. No one can make that claim of your 'idle hands' interpretation of a straight-forward few words.

act like a poor victim when I respond. How remarkably trollish of you. Is that really the only way you can score points in an argument you've already lost?

It was wrong for me to have typed it in the first place and I am sorry for that.

Also, if you notice I edited my remarks three minutes before your post...not after.

against me.

I don't think religion (well, normal ones anyway) have an effect on intelligence. I went to a Methodist college, and know a bunch of brilliant Jesuits.

If a doctor is a fundy, then no, I would not want them as my doctor.

If I'm getting you correctly, it's that putting this out at his job indicates an intensity of religiosity that signals the doctor may be part of that fundy vein that would be more likely than a normal religious person to discriminate. I get that, and you may very well be right. The doctor MIGHT just be insufficiently sensitive of diversity, or he MIGHT really be a RWer and prone to prejudice.

The rest doesn't bother me. Years ago we had a wonderful pediatrician. Patients would bring him all sorts of things to hang on walls.

It's not even an issue of being offended by or objecting to his beliefs. He can put up signs about God if he likes; my concern would be about his saying that reading the Bible *saves lives*. This goes beyond expressing his religious beliefs, and implies that he thinks that Bible reading is part of medical care - in other words, an endorsement of some form of faith healing. If I go to a doctor, I don't want him/her to be basing their treatment on anything other than medical science. It's not about Christianity in particular; I'd feel just the same way about 'New Age' beliefs.

hanging up.

Free speech also means I can say he's a complete moron because of this.

I consider him a quack.

It's my opinion and I'm free to have it.

Also, it's my body. If I waled into a doctor's offie and the doctor had that shit up, I'd leave, and the quack had better not try to charge me for a missed appointment, either. I'm not the one wearing religion like a fucking coat.

Nope, they didn't.

that are incapable of reconciling themselves with the FACTS underpinning modern biology, i.e. evolution and our common ancestry with other forms of life on this planet.

To each his or her own, I guess. I sure as shit wouldn't want a Dr. who got their medical degree at Liberty University.

to all the people who were beheaded, hanged, burned at the stake, tortured, and drawn and quartered, and generally slaughtered -- all by people who got their ideas from the Bible.

People make decisions as to their behavior. My faith gives me a set a moral codes that I abide by, the Golden Rule, etc., it makes me a better person. You can't blame the evil things people do on faith in God. Everyone makes their own decision as to their behavior in regards to their fellow man. I just get tired of all the religion slamming on DU. There are plenty of Christians who are Democrats and plenty of Republicans who are non believers. I am tired of the Reblicans being seen as the "Christian Party" as Democrats as the immoral son's of satan. I vote Democrat because I believe that we are to take care of the poor and needy, a basic premise of Christianity also.

is that if someone reads the bible and uses its inspiration to do something good, it's a credit to the bible. If someone reads the bible and uses its inspiration to do something bad, that's their own fault, not the bible's.

Pretty twisted logic.

From the beginning religion has always been about fostering an "us versus them" mentality. They tart it up in words like "love" and "peace," but at the end of the day, it comes down to "we're not them and they're not us."

be interpreted as fostering an "us versus them" mentality. By your own logic, I guess you're religious after all.

Elisha (with help from God) sent two bears to kill 42 children for making fun of his bald head. 2 Kings 2:22-23

Abimelech killed 69 of his brothers on a stone. Judges 9:5, BT

Doeg the Edomite killed 85 priests and all the men, women, children, infants, oxen, donkeys, and sheep with a sword. 1 Samuel 22:18-19, BT

Elijah (and God) burned to death 102 men. 2 Kings 1:10-12

David killed 200 Philistines to purchase his first wife with their foreskins. 1 Samuel 18:25-27, BT

Abishai killed 300 men with a spear. 2 Samuel 23:18, 1 Chronicles 11:20, BT

The chief of David's captains killed either 300 (1 Chronicles 11:11) or 800 (2 Samuel 23:8) men with a spear. (Sometimes it's hard to correctly count the number of dead bodies in a massacre.)

Elijah killed 450 religious leaders in a prayer contest. 1 Kings 18:22-40
(The total in this massacre may have been 850 if it included the priests of the groves.)

Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goad. Judges 3:31, BT

Samson killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass. Judges 15: 14-15, BT

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2008/04/bibles-greatest-massacres.html

This really should have the Jericho Masscre included. I believe it's Joshua 6.

You have a very violent god.

How about the deity itself destroying the entire population of the planet, save one family?

How about the selfsame deity wiping out two cities, save one family, then killing one of the members of that family for looking back at the scene?

Now, those were massacres, indeed.

Feh! That's not a "loving" deity by any stretch of the imagination. That's a vicious, enraged deity. I'll have none of that, thanks.

Moses and the sons of Levi killed 3000 Israelites because they demanded Aaron make them the golden calf. (Exodus 32) The strange thing is Moses didn't whack Aaron--the man who made the golden calf in the first place!

of course if he was a gynocologist...it could be 13 vaginas?

Where is that in the Bible?

the Tanakh or Torah

The Torah is the Old Testament of the Bible. The New Testament is the Christian sequel. And the Koran is not a part of the Bible, but another sequel.

So, sugar, maybe you need to be a little more accurate in your language. Additionally, even if I accepted your bizarre reinvention of word definitions, there is no mention in the Koran of 13 virgins, either. So you can choose which way you're more wrong, but any way you cut it, you're very wrong.

Saves lives - bullshit.

ON EDIT:
He should have it posted in his waiting room, rather than exam room. I sure as fuck would not want to see that after I've already incurred the expense of the visit.

.... not a witch doctor. Yikes.

1 Kings

# Behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall.--14:10

# He slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall ... according to the word of the LORD.--16:11-12

# Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall--21:21


2 Kings

# For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall--9:8


God just doesn't like pissers.

This always made us giggle when it was read in the school chapel.

I never did understand the big deal with that..I mean, I don't want to handle the toilet seat after it gets splashed on!

I went to a doctor in Meigs County and he had all kinds of religious stuff all over the office, lab area and exam rooms. Nativity scenes (and it was nowhere near christmas time), Jesus statues, crosses, pictures, etc... it was kind of creepy.

This isn't WoW, you can't heal people by reading from a holy book.

That outwardly Christian doctor will have no shortage of people who want him to be their doctor.

I once had counseling services from an obvious Christian psychologist. He was competent, yet, it was clear that our world views and philosophies on life were different enough, that I decided to choose a different counselor.

that obviously represents something the doctor cares about and it's not harmful.

it would be one thing if the doctor had you reading the bible instead of taking necessary medicine or getting needed medical treatment. but just saying reading the bible helps you?

this is pretty innocuous at first glance.

If Natasha Richardson had been reading the bible and not learning how to ski she'd still be alive. That was the sign's premise. Not how it could be comforting or help someone who might be suicidal. If that were the case, there'd be no reason for me to even start a thread.

In the Christian context, reading the bible "saves" lives in terms of salvation and forgiveness of sins.

An incredibly small number of Christian churches would've recommended Richardson read the bible instead of getting 21st century medical attention.

If the physician really believed such a thing, he would be off preaching and teaching the bible somewhere in the third world instead of having an office in the USA.

That's my take on this.

If I had a camera I would have taken a picture. Either take my word for it or don't. Up to you.

i'm asking if you could have misunderstood the Christian context.

did it explicitly say reading the bible stops kids from dying from malaria?

or that head injuries are cured by reading the bible?

It was in plain language and stated that rather than driving or some other activity the bible literally saves lives be reading it. My grandmother was with me and I wasn't going to make a thing of it with her there.

If I had even a doubt about what it implied I wouldn't have started a thread. It's still an idiotic thing for a doctor have in an exam room. Kind of made me wonder if he thought that people who weren't reading the bible at the time they were driving, running or whatever deserved whatever happened to them.

i guess the question then becomes, "what are you going to do in response?"

you can investigate to see how it might be affecting your grandmother's treatment.

you can encourage her to find another physician.

you can ask the doctor what message he intending with sending with that poster.

all kinds of choices. but to me the primary concern you want addressed is: is your grandmother receiving appropriate care or is this a sign of something wrong that is compromising her care?

once you feel you've answered that question sufficiently, your next move becomes a lot more obvious.

i gave you my opinion and when you explained yourself further i saw your reasoning and it made more sense to me.

yes, that's part of what we do and i was doing it right along with you.

i was also reacting against some reactionary responses in the thread itself, responses that make Christians out to be some sort of purveyor of prayer therapy as opposed to full medical treatment.

sorry.

the doctor is using his authority as a medical professional to falsely claim conversion to Christianity is good for your health. It means he's proselytizing. It means he's unprofessional. And it means his patients are better off looking for another doctor.

Even the Christian ones.

Rather than this somewhat absurd claim about it meaning that you can't get hurt doing something dangerous if you spend all your time reading the Bible.

his other religious crap is nothing like that. Just this which is why I started the thread.

It's not even close. So either you aren't conveying it properly or you read something into those words that makes no sense. I mean, was there a picture of the actress under it? A crude drawing of a ski slope? Because those words do NOT logically lead to what you've said.

I'm not sure why that's so difficult for you to comprehend. People have some fucked up views and this was one of them.

it's YOUR INTERPRETATION that makes no sense, and you've steadfastly refused to explain why you think it means what you've stated it means. I'm quite through trying to get clarification of this murky puddle.

it would be less of a concern for me.

but people have a right to proslytize. there are lots of shops out there with crucifixes and pictures of the pope on the wall.

That if you read the Bible you won't ever encounter danger because you'll be busy reading the Bible? You got that from the few words on that plaque?

The deeper you reach with that plaque, the more amplified your obvious misinterpretation of it becomes.

Is all it said what you quoted in the OP? Or did it add, as you've imagined, "Reading the Bible also leaves less time for dangerous things like skiing"? Because from what you've quoted in the OP, there's no basis for reading that sentiment in it.

My grandmother was there and the doctor was in and out a couple of times so I had a tough time committing it to memory. I do know what that sign was saying. Believe me or don't believe. Your choice.

Or did it say MORE than that which led you to conclude something the rest of us cannot based on what you've told us?

with the medical care of female and/or GLBT patients, I say it's a huge cause for concern.

i would say their religious belief didn't interfere with the medical treatment they provided.

but you're free to disagree.

If a doctor feels the need to advertise their beliefs in the office, then yeah, I'm going to be skeptical as hell of them.

Straight men, of course, do not have to worry about these issues.

The "Christian Medical and Dental Association" wants us to be celibate. Bunch of shit follows:

http://www.cmda.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Sexuality&CONTENTID=4089&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm

All people are loved by God. All struggle with moral failure and fall short of God’s standards; and therefore need the forgiveness that God provides through Christ alone. Homosexuality* is but one of these struggles. While recognizing the need to reach out in love to those struggling with same sex attraction, CMDA opposes the practice of homosexual acts on biblical, medical, and social grounds.

Biblical

* The Scriptures prescribe and promise God’s blessing on life-long heterosexual union in marriage, and chastity in all other circumstances. They are uniform throughout in forbidding the practice of homosexuality.

* Same-sex attraction cannot be consummated within God’s design for human sexuality. It is possible by God’s grace for those with same sex attraction to live a chaste life. Choosing to indulge in homosexual acts in thought or deed is sinful. The Scriptures, however, affirm the value of non-erotic same-sex friendships.

* Any lifestyle obsessed with and/or dominated by personal sexual fulfillment, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is contrary to God’s law.

* Homosexual acts deny the God-designed complementary nature of the sexes and do not have the potential to be procreative.


Medical

* The causes of same-sex attraction appear to be multi-factorial and may include developmental, psychosocial, environmental and biological factors. There is no credible evidence at this time that same-sex attraction is genetically determined.

* Acting on homosexual attraction is voluntary. Claims of genetic or environmental determinism do not relieve individuals of moral responsibility for their sexual behavior.

* Homosexual behavior can be changed. There is valid evidence that many individuals who desired to abstain from homosexual acts have been able to do so.

* Some homosexual acts are physically harmful because they disregard normal human anatomy and function. These acts are associated with increased risks of tissue injury, organ malfunction, and infectious diseases. These and other factors result in a significantly shortened life expectancy.

* Among those involved in homosexual acts, there is an increased incidence of drug and/or alcohol dependence, compulsive sexual behavior, anxiety, depression, and suicide.

Social

* Homosexual relationships are typically brief in duration. Homosexual behavior is destructive to the structures necessary for healthy marriages, families and society. Men who commit homosexual acts have a high incidence of promiscuity, child molestation, and sexually transmitted infections. Homosexual behaviors burden society with increased medical costs, increased disability, and loss of productivity.

* Homosexual behavior can be self-propagating. Some homosexual groups and individuals engage in active recruitment. A child who is sexually molested has an increased likelihood of later engaging in homosexual acts. There is also an increased incidence of homosexual activity among children raised by same sex couples. Adoption into such environments puts children at risk.

* Legalizing or blessing same sex marriage or civil unions is harmful to the stability of society, the raising of children and the institution of marriage. If the only criterion for marriage were mutual consent or commitment, there are no grounds to prohibit polygamy, polyandry or incestuous unions....



Unanimously approved by the House of Representatives
June 11, 2003
Schroon Lake, NY

in that case everyone does.

if the doctor is going to provide proper treatment based on one's sexual orientation or gender then i would start worrying about his treatment of all patients.

:shrug:

especially sexually active gay men. And if you have a doctor who is the type to put Christian paraphernalia on examining room walls, then there's a chance you're not going to get the best care -- often because they haven't bothered to inform themselves about the particular concerns and how to test for them.

I moved to a rural area for a while and searched out a doctor, based on someone's recommendation, who was supposed to by sympathetic. I went into his office and there was a giant crucifix on the wall. If it were any bigger, you could have used it in a real crucifixion.

As we discussed my medical care and my sex life, he couldn't get beyond "abstinence." That was his topic of choice (pardon the expression). I found another doctor.

I now have a doctor who is gay and he's on top of everything. I feel very comfortable with him -- and if I mention any type of a symptom, then he'll say, "OK, we'd better do this test and this test -- just to be on the safe side."

I can't speak for lesbians, but I imagine they wouldn't feel comfortable discussing their sex lives and sexual practices with someone who was pushing right-wing religion in the examining room.

if a doctor can't get beyond abstinence, then i don't think he's doing his job for straight men either.

that was my point.

just because i might be on his list with regard to spiritually approved lifestyle his medical advice to me would be severely compromised because he might be filtering out or unaware of certain treatments because he is inclined against them for spiritual rather than medical reasons. that's a huge signal to ANY patient.

:hi:

and a heterosexual, especially right-wing religious, doctor will react more benignly to "good old boy" behavior than he will to gay men and their concerns.

I have a friend who markets HIV meds to doctors. His main area of coverage is among gay doctors, but he also has to go to outlying areas and deal with straight doctors. He says the ignorance among straight doctors about HIV and AIDS, available tests, and the currently available treatments is staggering.

but that assumes it really is happening.

stop me from seeing him.

Everything on my doctor's wall is advice, and it's all advice which the doctor would give face to face where applicable: eat well, get exercise, don't smoke, if you have symtom x do y etc. Now imagine the doctor verbally advising a patient to read the bible. If the patient is non-Christian, presumably you'd agree that this advice is offensive. If the patient is Christian, the advice is either redundant or a form of one-upmanship (literally holier-than-thou).

I suspect that the poster in question isn't advice after all. Rather, as is common with businesses which advertise that they're Christian, it's a message: I'm Christian, and therefore good. Which is a bunch of crap.

It must be referring to "eternal life" (saved).

Personally, I don't like it.
I hate cheesy little religious puns.

not stick around to see.

that his own reading of the Bible enables him to save more lives, in which case; I would encourage him to read it as often as he can.

A doctor. Who belonged to an end-times religion in which the predicted "end-times" came and went 150 years ago... :eyes:

:eyes:

Killed a lot of "Saracens," but saved a lot of lives in Europe.

The whole reason for the crusades was that after the end of the Viking threat to Europe, which was pretty severe, there were a lot of knights and other pugnacious types hanging around.

This started to be a problem. They weren't the gallant knights of song and fable -- and costume drama movie. They were more like Blackwater run amok -- a bunch of hyperactive thugs They started to mess things up in Europe and were whacking people right and left. Finally, the church and the kings got together and decided to put them to good use -- and get them the fuck out of town, hoping that many of them wouldn't come back.

So, the move saved some lives in Europe and killed people in the middle east.

It can say "You Don't Need To Go To Medical School To Get Your MD. Just Read The Bible And God Will Send You One In The Mail."

I hate this kind of thinking. Its like the lone survivor of some kind of a disaster who says that God saved her or that the reason she is alive is because she kept praying.
So, this God fellow KILLED the other victims? Because they didn't pray? Because he just didn't like them and thought their families could use some tough love?
Because he didn't have a "plan" for them, only for you. And usually that "plan" God had for this lone survivor is going on the talk shows, writing a book, and touring Christian bookstores and churches telling the same story they have already heard.

If this is your doctor , I would find another one.

I simply do not trust anyone in a sales situation (medical or not) spouting Jesus.

In fact, this was the only time that I have walked out of an office. Truth be told, this was the only time that I have ever seen religion mentioned by a medical doctor.

Makes my skin crawl... don't pimp the Jesus!


Edit: bad pronunciation

to have a T-shirt made that says "Reading medical books saves lives" and wear it every time you go to the office.

my general rule of thumb is to keep my hand on my wallet.

:puke: on them.

Seriously, some people literally put up a sign. That's your cue.

Did you ask for clarification?

100%

"Something of no intrinsic remedial value that is used to appease or reassure another."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/placebo

I giggle every time I pass his office and see that sign. What the heck is Bible-based medicine? I'm betting it isn't evidence-based medicine. STBX told me once that he got a lot of patients from that guy, people who tried him first only to get worse or whatever who then needed a real doctor.

Don't get me wrong--I know several doctors who are people of faith, but they tend to keep their faith out of the exam room.

...instead of, oh, going out and driving around drunk, then reading the Bible might indeed save lives.

I don't this kind of live-saving stuff works out in the broader scope of things, however.

Hmmm. I'd better put in a sarcasm tag for the sarcasm-detection impaired:

:sarcasm: