George W. Bush: Invaded Iraq To Thwart Gog And Magog

- So it appears that what this whole Iraq war came down to then, is that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War">over a million people died, countless hundreds of thousands were injured and/or are maimed-for-life and which started the spiraling destruction of ours, and then the whole world's economy -- all in order for this nitwit to "thwart" two scary, mythical, giant warmongers.

And yet there are still those who will say without equivocation, that religion isn't a danger.....
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DeSwiss


http://www.atheisttoolbox.com/">The Atheist Toolbox




"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent,
persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." ~ John F. Kennedy

instead of getting professional help. No wonder he went over the edge on religion.

...in W's case. Even with professional help, the best one could hope for would be for him to reach the pinnacle of "below-average."

I think Bush 43 might have missed the irony while he was gathering his armies.


But people listening to the supernatural has decieved many, sometimes it is the bad side. My view on it comes from knowing some supernatural things lie, and they are bad, and a person has to use discernment and not just follow anything.

I sort of thought of it in this way.

I think many people over interpret things, usually to their own peril, because they do not realize they are using them for an excuse to not think on the topic. If it is not of good I do not consider it of God. I believe it should pass the test of the heart and mind when thinking on something to make sure a person is not deceived by the supernatural.

That is also why I don't just listen to sermons or doctrine but think on them also. It is easy to find an excuse to do something bad if you can convince yourself it is from God, so if it isn't of good, I try and ignore it.

On a personal note, when Gandhi spoke, he said he would die for a cause but not kill for any cause, in that he had a moral frame work to work from, with those values in his heart, he could not be deceived and used for bad. Many might think he could not get things done because he did not turn to the bad stuff, but by not doing that he was immune from deceptions trying to turn him against himself. Although I am not as principled as people like Gandhi, I try and learn from them, and try and not take the path that might change me, and instead know, although some call it a myth, God loves us.

And I try and stick to the better things,(although of coarse I fail sometimes) knowing no person can fathom all the mysteries of God.

...spring from the legends and fables of many past civilizations, through the process of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism#Religious_syncretism">religious syncretism they have now all coalesced and they've become inculcated into our mass-psyche, as spread through these religious stories, symbols and imagery. All of them stories pitting tangible forces of "good and evil" against each other, in psycho-dramas that we reenact into reality. Over and over again. The Iraq War was another stanza in this centuries-long poet's tale.

However, since these legends and stories are of our own invention, then it is we who deceive ourselves with our own tales. And when we continue to believe in the stories and the things that we once believed, but now know not to be true.

Now the form that it takes people have many opinions about, and I have my views on it also.


I will agree however that interpretation includes a form of self creation where a persons biases can add to or change the meaning of something.



I don't think everyone thinks of people they oppose as evil, more that everyone at some times do things that other people disagree with. So when someone does something I think is wrong, I do not think of them as evil, but could say in my view they are doing evil, and I should comment on my thoughts on it, or not be part of it, if in my thoughts or belief I feel it is wrong.

Just calling something evil is lazy, once you decide it is evil, you no longer have to think on any actions done by it. That is the convenience of things like stereotypes or groups, it allows for justification of unjust dislike, or even hurting another group without cause.

Honest question.

In other words, things happen when their is no way for those things to be correlated in a normal way.

From my perspective of knowing there is no normal way for the things to occur, I know it must be supernatural, although people could argue about weather it is good or bad, from my perspective the supernatural has to exist.

For instance, I posted this post,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x8411051#8411186

didn't think much of it.

Then I posted a few other posts that sorta related, but hard to tell why, until at the exact minute that the plane landed in the Hudson I posted this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x8414561#8416008



Again it is not about me, I think God put the perfect pilot and crew and conditions to keep those people safe for some reason, but for me it proves the supernatural.

This is just one example, there are 1000s of examples, but they are fixed in time so without that context they have less meaning, even the above one has different interpretations because it is not viewed at that exact time. Hard to explain, my view is it is like sand drawings. And it has nothing to do with me, lots of people do the same things. Its like everything is connected but not everyone sees it.

And there is actually alot more to it. In the movie V the police guy called it a chain of events. Its like that, instead of posting things after they happen, things are posted by many people before they happen. But they only have context within certain events.

You can say it is bad or good, many people call it 'the phone', you just get the answer you need when you need them. There are also many religious contexts, a couple days before the first post about 'thrown in the water with the sharks', I posted this song.
http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=0f2277fbcc1bf0d8235b

Which matches more to my beliefs, so in my view it is part of the spirit all people have access to. Although I would guess some people think it is good, some think it is bad, again interpretation. But either way, for me it proves the supernatural.


Edit: there is alot more to it, it is only like a snap shot of a chain of events, like what the key means, and the hair, and lots of other things. So again without the temporal context it is hard to explain.

At what point do you say that something is too improbable to just be chance? Improbable doesn't mean impossible--there's a less than .1% chance of flipping a coin ten times and getting heads each time but here's a video of someone doing just that.

Flip a coin 50 times and record the outcome of each coin flip. The chance of a you flipping a coin 50 times and getting that exact sequence of heads or tails is 1 in 1,125,899,906,842,620 meaning that it's far more likely to get any other sequence of results than the one you got.

What about the probability of DeSwiss joining DU exactly when he did, me joining DU exactly when I did, you joining exactly when you did, of all three of us choosing our exact usernames, of DeSwiss starting this thread exactly when he did, of you posting your original response at exactly 7:33 AM GMT, of me reading your post and posting a response exactly 18 minutes later, and tyou posting your response exactly 21 minutes later? It's an infinitesimally small chance that all of those things would happen and the probability shrinks even more when you add the chance of all of our biological parents meeting and reproducing, of their parents doing the same thing, and so on.

It's far more likely for any other combination of events to take place than what happened. Do you attribute the outcome to supernatural intervention? If so, how is that any different than fatalism? How is that supernatural force more likely to exist than those things to have simply happened?

With the Hudson River landing, if God "put the perfect pilot and crew and conditions to keep those people safe for some reason," why not just prevent the flock of birds from taking out the plane's engines in the first place? Wouldn't the perfect conditions to keep those people safe involve nothing even happening to the plane in the first place? How is orchestrating a mid-air emergency and making sure there's a pilot who can handle it not malicious? To me, it's little different than setting fire to a fire station--you know it'll turn out alright because the right people to handle a fire are right there.

Edit to add: add the probability of me responding 14 and a half hours later and the probability of me editing this post to indicate that.

But to answer to the question you asked, from my perspective.

With the Hudson River landing, if God "put the perfect pilot and crew and conditions to keep those people safe for some reason," why not just prevent the flock of birds from taking out the plane's engines in the first place?

For me, and again this is just what I believe, the answer to that question came from the video posted a day or two before the plane landed in the Hudson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7J6dRkJjOI

As far as coincidence, at some point they are too many supposed coincidences to think it is just random events, for me at least. Especially when they fit together so tightly. Although I give less credence to post event events, but when I see pre event events, its hard not to think there is more going on then just coincidence.

Although what I posted about that event, was to answer your question why I know the supernatural exist, people might say correlations are fake, or its something else, for some people, they always think that is case, many people want to hide the existence of more then just normal things. What you choose to believe or anyone else chooses to believe is their own decision.

How is orchestrating a mid-air emergency and making sure there's a pilot who can handle it not malicious? To me, it's little different than setting fire to a fire station--you know it'll turn out alright because the right people to handle a fire are right there.

You have a presumption of intent. Also it is possible that more then one force was involved, or it was possible that the intent was not just to save lives but to show there is more going on then just random events. If either of those hypothesis are true, then the following makes sense.

If some force tried to hurt people, why would a good force just protect the people, when it can also be used to show their are more things in existence then just the normal world. I assume many millions of times people are protected and nobody ever knows it, but I also think sometimes it is seen. For me at least, I saw a supernatural event, not just in the plane but in many sequences of events that happen around it, including the rescue crews, water fairies, pilot skill and things involving many other normal people. But I understand many people may not believe the same things as me.

My post was to answer why I think the supernatural exist, not expecting everyone to believe it because it was posted. And weather it is good or bad is also for each person to decide.

I'm just trying to understand your point of view. I can understand the attributing of coincidence to the supernatural, just not where you draw the line between natural and supernatural. I guess the question should be about what the forces you see at work--what are they, how many are there, etc. Since you posted a link to an online Christian group site and mentioned God, I assumed that you were talking about God as a single supernatural force at play. If that was incorrect, I apologize.

BTW, the intent I presumed was in your response, "I think God put the perfect pilot and crew and conditions to keep those people safe for some reason." My question was about whether or not the intent (to keep those people safe) wouldn't have been possibly better served in a way that didn't involve a plane crash.

The link in the post you replied to was a link to the bar scene from the movie Tombstone.


I have not, recently at least, posted any links meant to just link to online Christian groups, although I am a Christian and people at that web server might be Christians, also people in those movies I have posted clips of could be Christians and are online. But they are not just links to web pages from what people call just a Christian group.

Or maybe it is syntax, since Christian groups could have some of the songs I linked to on there web sites. I posted links to the songs, not directly to the groups. Might be syntax, since it is possible many of the people are Christians in the links.

Could you post my post where you refer to my link to an online Christian group?

Clicking on the link takes you to a page that says at the top:


The link to the clip from Tombstone was in a subsequent response

I have not read or browsed the site, but being a Christian it might be interesting. Although Christians have different views on many things also.

However I like the song. Is your view of my comment changed by which site the video was on?

When I originally played the clip it was on YouTube, but I did not find the same exact video when looking for it in the above post. Maybe I should have mentioned that, I did not think it was relevant what web site it was on.

By linking to something on that site, I assumed that you were Christian and that when you referenced the supernatural, you were talking about the Abrahamic god--a singular supernatural force. That led to a lack of understanding when you wrote this a couple comments back:

"If some force tried to hurt people, why would a good force just protect the people, when it can also be used to show their are more things in existence then just the normal world."

Could you clarify what you mean? What forces are at play here and what do they do?

Could you clarify what you mean? What forces are at play here and what do they do?

That is a broad question that asks what I think. The biggest point of it is that what I think will be sometimes flawed, since everyone has some good and some bad, so to just say someone should believe what I say because I say it would be a fault. However in that context, of knowing I too am sometimes wrong and sometimes right, I can share my thoughts for someone to think on, but not just to believe.

Someone posted a comment on another thread about 'true believers' and how they are bad. 'True believers' often believe in God, and from that they think they are always right. My belief is that I believe in God, and know God is always right, but me myself, being flawed can be wrong at times. So even when the supernatural tries to guide people, I think people need to run those things by the heart and mind given by God to discern if the thoughts are good or bad.

So instead of just explaining my beliefs, I guess I do not try to explain exactly what I believe as much as to say that God exists, and there are things that happen beyond just normal. But if I were to tell people what that all means, or tell people they should believe exactly as I do, I would have to claim to always be correct. I believe God is always correct, so people should in my belief, as I said before, let their heart and mind think on the matters in prayer, and from that, I believe people will find the truth of the love and mercy of God. In other words, I listen to many teachings and try to think and feel on what they say and how it can help me learn, knowing everyone has good and bad, but trying to find the best in everything to learn from.

Many people of other faiths have taught me how to be better, and that does not go against my faith to believe that. I can have different beliefs and still respect good thought that also matches the teachings I believe in.

I also noticed some people use life is finite, or ends at death as an excuse to be less kind, not all but some do that. There is common story that says evil tries to hide the existence of the supernatural. So proving the supernatural exists seems to be a good thing, and part of getting people to think on such matters, not to tell them what to believe, but to try and show them there is more to things, and their are good forces that do help and protect people, and forces that should not be accepted that want people to despair.

As you probably know, my belief is that Almighty God through his son Jesus Christ died and rose again to save us from our own sins, and to teach us the better ways of joy, kindness, honesty, and forgiveness. But I know some people believe differently, and it is not for me to judge other people, so instead of telling them what they have to believe, I try and be honest and shine a light on things that are bad, while celebrating with joy those things that are good. If someone believes different, I think they should be showered with love, not judged as evil, in that I think good will spread.

Sometimes I am wrong, I am also correct some times.

The fun logic is some people would immediately think me saying I am incorrect sometimes means nothing I say is correct, however it is possible that the only thing I have posted that is incorrect is me saying sometimes I am incorrect. :)

It is a fun logic puzzle because if someone says they are incorrect sometimes, people like to believe that. But you can't believe it because it is said(since the speaker has said he could be wrong), you actually believe it because it matches your experiences, people are sometimes correct and sometimes incorrect, so it is actually not the statement that is believed, but the match to someones own experience already. Because it would be impossible to believe a statement based on the statement when the statement says sometimes it is incorrect. It requires people to think on it also. In that the statement is not telling someone something, it is offering them something to think about.

I find that interesting in how sometimes people do not put that thought into every statement said by anyone, and how it creates the difference from thinking on something and following something.

Magog's at work in the Middle East!
(Heh heh heh I bet Chirac doesn't know that Magog was my/my dad's nickname.)

edit: I thought Magog was junior's nickname but if it was poppy's it still works, considering how emeshed that family appears to be.

Everyone knows Alexander the Great shut Gog and Magog up behind giant bronze gates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates_of_Alexander


http://www.amazon.com/Alexanders-Gate-Magog-Inclosed-Nations/dp/B000O245JQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249626397&sr=8-1

:D


.

...and that's just one of his manifestations. Or infestations, whatever one's point of view. Because you got all these others to contend with as well:

# http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog#Gog_and_Magog_in_religious_works">1 Gog and Magog in religious works

* 1.1 Biblical References

# 2 Gog's Location and Intent

# 3 Identification of Gog

* 3.1 Qur'an

# 4 Identifications

* 4.1 In Jewish traditions
* 4.2 In Ahmadiyya Religion
* 4.3 In the Alexander Romance
* 4.4 As Goths
* 4.5 As Khazars
* 4.6 As Israelites or Jews
* 4.7 As Russia
* 4.8 In The Travels of Marco Polo
* 4.9 As Napoleon in Russia

# 5 Gog and Magog in Britain

* 5.1 Giants
* 5.2 Gog Magog Hills

# 6 Gog and Magog in Ireland

- I'm afraid the Emperor will have to take a number, and wait in line like all the rest!

/:sarcasm:

:puke:

If this story is true, it highlights the problem of politicians using their religious views to shape policy.

Evil fundie atheists write books. THE HORROR!

:scared:

Have you seen Gog and Magog lalely?

Nope.

There you go.

It makes my ears bleed.