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So what is a true Christian?

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SidneyCarton

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Tue Aug-11-09 05:44 PM
Original message

So what is a true Christian?

Some years ago, when I was serving as a missionary in Brazil, my grandmother wrote me and asked me what Brazilians looked like. I found this question a bit humorous, as Brazil is, if anything more multi-ethnic than the U.S. There was no single physical characteristic that one could point out and state decisively "that makes that person a Brazilian."

The same is true of Christianity. The faith takes all comers, we have good neighbors and pedophiles, culture lovers and philistines, the charitable, the stingy, and the outright selfish all proclaim faith in Christ. And indeed, all who do, to varying degrees and in varying forms are hypocrites, who will fall short of any yardstick that demands more of them than they eat, breath, and defecate.

Such is the case with all groups. Richard Nixon and Thomas Jefferson were both Americans. Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Roland Heydrich were both Germans. Mohammad Atta and Edward Said were both Muslims, and Mother Teresa and Ted Bundy both professed faith in Christ. And none of them fully embodied or lived up to any, or all of the baggage with which freighted any one of those descriptions.

To ask whether or not Fred Phelps or Jimmy Carter best epitomizes Christianity is a loaded and utterly futile question, they both do, just as both Richard Dawkins and Pol Pot both represent Atheism. They each represent a facet of an incredibly complex movement that defies easy definition beyond one's profession of belief.

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hobbit709

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Tue Aug-11-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message

1. My personal experience has been that

the louder someone claims they are a real Christian, the less likely they truly are.

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SidneyCarton

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Tue Aug-11-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #1

2. Indeed, it is often the loudest proclaimers of any movement

who show the least allegiance in actions to the actual tenets thereof.

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BurtWorm

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Fri Aug-14-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #1

35. You mean the less likely they're your kind of Christian.

But it's not likely they're anything but a Christian if they're being loud about it.

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rrneck

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Tue Aug-11-09 06:04 PM
Response to Original message

3. The more they profit from it the less Christian they are. nt

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SidneyCarton

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Tue Aug-11-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #3

4. By a certain yardstick you are correct.

And if we accept that that yardstick was Christ's ("Not all who say to me Lord, Lord...") then you are correct.

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ZombieHorde

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Tue Aug-11-09 06:14 PM
Response to Original message

5. Anyone who sincerely considers him/herself to be a Christian is a Christian in my view.

What other objective standard can there be?

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SidneyCarton

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Tue Aug-11-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #5

6. Thus is the point of the OP.

If one takes anything in the Bible literally, the person who gets to do the determining of who the "true" Christians are is Christ himself. When he decides, we'll know. Until then, were stuck with everyone else's definitions.

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skepticscott

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Wed Aug-12-09 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #6

22. Even if he existed, why would he bother?

If you believe the Bible, Christ didn't found the Christian religion or encourage a religion named after him to be started. So why would it matter to him whether someone was a "true Christian" or not?

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SidneyCarton

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Wed Aug-12-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #22

24. Ask him.

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skepticscott

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Thu Aug-13-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #24

30. Tell you what

you ask him, and then forward his response to the rest of us. Unless he's a voice only you can hear...

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SidneyCarton

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Thu Aug-13-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #30

31. Your snark is kinda cute.

I remember thinking that was cute, in the Eighth Grade.

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skepticscott

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Sat Aug-15-09 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #31

37. Nothing wrong with snark if

Edited on Sat Aug-15-09 09:39 AM by skepticscott

it has a point. Which in this case is pointing out the bizarre situation that we lock people up or medicate them if they say that a voice in their head is talking to them and telling them what to do (and that they do it), unless they say that the voice is "God" or "Jesus" or "Allah" or some such, in which case we call them the normal ones, and everyone who questions that reality is called intolerant, narrow-minded and bigoted.

Your snark, on the other hand, is pretty much empty.

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baldguy

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Tue Aug-11-09 06:23 PM
Response to Original message

7. Matthew 25:34-46

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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HillbillyBob

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Tue Aug-11-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #7

11. I believe that Jimmy Carter exemplifies Christian fairly well.

Edited on Tue Aug-11-09 07:13 PM by HillbillyBob

My grandmother and my partner both say red the Red letter passages and live by them.
My grandmother (whom I adored) died a few years ago of cancer at age 84.
Her last days in the hospital on a drip for the pain.
There were all these strangers I have never seen or met, they each had stories of how she brought them food or clothes when they were in need. Stories were told of how a family whose father lost his job or had passed or just plain bad luck, she would bring them a complete cooked meal for Christmas or Thankgiving or just food when they were in need and never asked for anything in return.
It was not like she was wealthy she was a waitress at this or that dinner for many years. These were always meals she made from scratch, some times she would bring clothes for the kids or toys, she always seemed to know just what they needed.
I hope I can be as good a person as she was.
Her last words were for my partner, the rest of the family are evangelicals and I thought there were going to be heart attacks or strokes when she said " Tell Bill I love him and am sorry I did not get to see him. I have been the black sheep because I am gay for the longest time. It did seem to change something in my Dad who actually came down from WV to NC to see us and to meet my partner.
She was the truest Christian I have ever known and I am proud to have known her and I still miss her so.
I live by the Golden Rule as best that I can, on the other hand I only have so many cheeks to slap. I will not be run over.

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jody

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Tue Aug-11-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #7

12. baldguy you and I have the same favorite passage and apparently hair style also. n/t

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SidneyCarton

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Tue Aug-11-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #7

15. My definition of a true Christian would fall along these lines as well.

I however do not get to decide, Christ does, these are the criteria that he says he will judge us on, but that sorting doesn't happen until after death. At this point we have to deal with the fact that we share the moniker, if not the spirit of Christianity with a number of rather unpleasant individuals.

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jody

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Tue Aug-11-09 06:33 PM
Response to Original message

8. Understand, my favorite passage is Matthew 25: 31-46 in which each person is judged on her/his

treatment of the hungry, thirsty, strangers, naked, sick, prisoners.

That parable doesn't talk about religion, only acts and I watch what people do, not what they claim to believe.

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JerseygirlCT

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Tue Aug-11-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #8

10. That's a great point

in the end, "Christianity" is just a human construct. It's not about what you call yourself; it's about what you do.

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skepticscott

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Wed Aug-12-09 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #8

23. Unfortunately

a lot of other people have different favorite passages, and your interpretation of what makes a person a better Christian (as opposed to a better person) has no more objective validity then theirs.

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JerseygirlCT

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Tue Aug-11-09 06:41 PM
Response to Original message

9. Yup. Well said

The short of it is that Christianity is less a club to join than an obligation to take on. And anyone who says they are one must be taken at his or her word.

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MineralMan

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Tue Aug-11-09 06:52 PM
Response to Original message

13. I accept the statement of the person claiming to be a Christian.

That said, the designation is meaningless, since people professing that religion run the entire gamut of human behavioral modes. It's an irrelevant distinction to me, and I wait to see the person's actions before judging his or her state of humanity.

Those who try to claim that they are TRVE CHRISTIANS™, to the exclusion of others, I generally find to be the least like Jesus, as described in the Gospels.

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Tue Aug-11-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message

14. First, he has to be a Scotsman.

But not just any Scotsman.

A true Scotsman.

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darkstar3

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Wed Aug-12-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #14

25. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say "Scotsman"

I've been lurking here for a while, and I can't remember exactly which DUer it was who said it, but the bottom line on this fallacy is simple in my mind: If they say they're X religion, then they are.

I do not define people (where possible). I let people define themselves. I let them tell me how they wish to be treated and considered, from names to religions to whatever else. It just makes my life a lot simpler, and it often keeps me from being unpleasantly surprised.

With specific reference to Christianity, consider this: How is a person who has never read the bible or heard "the message" supposed to know if you're a Christian or not? They don't know the verses, so they've never heard of the "fruit of the spirit" or any other yardstick by which to find a true Scotsman. :) Therefore they know you only by your own self-identification.

Use that self-identification wisely...It may be used to broad-brush you into a corner. :)

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Goblinmonger

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Wed Aug-12-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #25

26. Welcome to DU

I think you'll do just fine in R/T.

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darkstar3

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Wed Aug-12-09 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #26

27. Thank you...

and i hope so...I'll probably be spending quite a bit of time here, considering my lurker history...

:hi:

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elocs

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Wed Aug-12-09 06:01 AM
Response to Original message

16. To be a true Christian is to be Christ-like. We do have millions of pseudo Christians, though.

As the song goes, they will know you are Christians by your love, as well as by your fruits. True Christianity needs no long explanation, but is actually quite simple. It's like being a Democrat. Just because I call myself a Democrat does not mean that I really am one. There should be enough reflection in my words and deeds for those who know me to unquestioningly say, "yes, he is a Democrat".

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trotsky

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Wed Aug-12-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #16

20. being "Christ-like"

Does that mean you don't sin?

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moggie

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Fri Aug-14-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #20

33. You're allowed to curse fig trees

If you're particularly advanced, you can also put demons into pigs.

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TZ

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Wed Aug-12-09 07:31 AM
Response to Original message

17. In my observation...

Its only anyone who has the same political views as you..Right wing fundies say liberal Christians aren't true Christians and libearl Christians say fundies aren't true Christians. Its one of the reasons I have such a dim view of organized religions.

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Meshuga

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Wed Aug-12-09 08:16 AM
Response to Original message

18. Indeed, however...

It is true that the ethnicity in Brazil is so diverse that is hard to tell what a typical Brazilian looks like. Go to São Paulo and you will encounter the largest population of Japanese outside of Tokyo and the largest population Italians outside of Rome. This might be an exaggeration (as I have never seen the statistics) but I have heard these claims and have been there to say they might be true.

But there is a characteristic of Brazilian culture that does not compare to what you are saying as far as who is a Christian or who is not. No matter the physical characteristics of Brazilians or their background, they seem to embrace their differences.

Whether it is the very European culture in the southern region, the Afro-Brazilian culture from the state of Bahia, the unique culture in the northeast, etc. they seem to embrace all as Brazilian.

There are no "s/he is no true Brazilian" arguments. Quite the opposite.

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SidneyCarton

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Wed Aug-12-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #18

19. This is indeed true, Brazilian-ness is all embracing.

The whole point of my argument, is that arguing that so-and-so is a Christian and so-and-so is not is in the end pointless. The one person with the authority to determine that is Christ, who does so at his leasure. Those of us who would embrace the moniker of "Christian" must accept that it is a title claimed by many who we would not otherwise associate with.

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struggle4progress

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Wed Aug-12-09 07:02 PM
Response to Original message

21. Know them by their fruit. Who can gather grapes from a thorn bush or figs from the thistles?

A good tree bears good fruit and an evil tree evil fruit

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dmallind

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Sat Aug-15-09 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #21

36. And what about good trees that are definitively not Christian?

If someone can be eliminated from being considered Christian because they do something bad and "bear bad fruit" can somebody be co-opted into Christianity against their will if they "bear good fruit"? Or is this only a one way street that eliminates the inconveniently nasty espousers of the faith from being "true Christians" while allowing good fruit-bearing trees who profess Islam or Hinduism or heck even atheism to retain their free will?

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Evoman

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Thu Aug-13-09 01:26 AM
Response to Original message

28. Don't quote me, but I think they usually wear ties.

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libguy9560

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Thu Aug-13-09 04:52 AM
Response to Original message

29. Don't have any idea

Definitely NOT the type representing the religious right.

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saltpoint

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Fri Aug-14-09 04:32 AM
Response to Original message

32. Well we can rule out Jesus as a model right out of the gate, as he was a Jew.

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BurtWorm

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Fri Aug-14-09 09:20 AM
Response to Original message

34. Very sensible answer. Thanks.

:toast:

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