I had a customer preach to me that the only way is through Jesus Christ...

I'm a 20 year old waiter/ college student. I generally wait on older folks (65+).

This customer was at least 70 and more talkative than other customers. He was doing number tricks on napkins to amuse me.

But then he asked me if I was a Christian. Being aware of the fact that I work on tips, I decided to go along with it. I told him that I was not a Christian but that my family was and I had been raised in a Christian household.

He proceeded to tell me that God must have created the universe because it's simply too complicated to be chocked up to random chance. Then he told me that we must believe in God because otherwise life would be sad and meaningless. Then he told me that the only way to eternal salvation was through accepting Jesus Christ as my lord and savior.

I didn't tell him that I had already done so once and had since rejected God's existence (an unforgivable sin according to the bible). I simply nodded my head and went along with it.


But I wonder if he realized how his words attacked my own lifestyle.He didn't bother asking me how I live with life being absurd. He just assumed that it was horrific.

It also seems to show the true intentions behind his faith. He has all this faith in God and Christianity simply because he is too scared not to believe.

I just thought it was an interesting conversation. Very telling.

than he showed to you.

He ought to have left you a big tip for your mature handling of his preposterous trespass.

I like this story to explain it.

I hope you got a good tip. :-)

25 cent tip on an 8 dollar meal.

Most of them are perfectly lucid and know what they're doing... But still, I figure that it's just as well to just smile and nod. I mean these folks have had the greater part of a century to decide who they are and who they aren't - arguing with them is just going to make them angry and you frustrated. They're not going to change you, and you're certainly not going to change them, so I figure just let it slide.

If he thinks his life would be sad and meaningless without his religion, well, whatever works for him. I know my life would be sad and meaningless without good music.

are probably feeling the fact that they are near the end of life. Maybe it's safer for them to turn to god at that stage - nothing to lose, ya know?

I will never understand why 'Christians' get their panties in such a bunch about other people not believing in the same things they do.

The only explanation I have is that their 'faith' is so weak it's threatened by others not sharing it. Or they're compulsively, insanely nosy.

and get their panties in a bunch that anyone would dare invade their space with such fantasy.

I would probably laugh if I did.

I don't mean believe what he believes. I certainly don't. I'm an atheist. That doesn't mean I can't try to see where the guy is coming from.

Suppose he really believes Jesus Christ is the only way to be "saved".
Suppose he really believes the alternative to being saved is eternal punishment.
Further suppose he's been taught all of his life that "spreading the good word" is a good thing to do.

If those things are true, and they're very likely true for many Christians, then this man really could believe that he's doing you a favor and acting on an important duty he has.

His "panties" might be "in such a bunch" because he's genuinely concerned about the welfare of non-believers.
His faith might be strong, not weak, because he perseveres even when he knows that sometimes his message will be rejected and people annoyed by it.

That's not to say that some of the negative attributes you suppose might not also be true. I often suspect that behind fundamentalist and evangelical beliefs one will find fear and a desire to control others, but these are hardly the ONLY possible explanations, and even when they might apply, the proselytizer might not be consciously aware of such motivations.

where a true lib/progressive is comfortable in allowing others their beliefs. If this gentlemen finds comfort in his faith and simply tries to help others find similar comfort, then good for him, imo.

To me, "allowing" means not interfering with the person's legal right to hold whatever beliefs they have, not discriminating in housing and employment (with some exceptions -- if a person says their religion requires they take off 200 religious holidays per year, for instance, I don't expect the rest of the word to have to bend over backwards to accommodate this person), not perpetrating violence or intimidation, etc.

Then there's the ridiculous internet-forum meaning of "allowing" that goes something like this:

Poster A posts something like "I believe salvation and the blessings of good fortune come to those who pray to the giant space turtle Xzytchalez."

Posters B, C, D, E, F, G and H question Poster A why this should be so, how he knows it's true, laugh, make space turtle jokes, etc.

Sensitive souls I, J, K and L, and maybe Poster A himself, whine about how Poster A is not being "allowed" to have his opinion.

In this scenario, there is no lack of "allowing" going on unless you stretch the meaning of "allowing" so far as to mean that every person must be protected like a delicate flower from the slightest challenge to or criticism of their beliefs, and that the only valid metric of a belief is whether or not it makes a person happy or cope better with life or not, as if all people should be treated as children with security blankets that we must not disturb.

Just because I'm willing to try to view something like proselytizing from the perspective of the proselytizer doesn't mean I wouldn't challenge to proselytizer myself under certain circumstance.

It just struck me from the OP that the poster felt more enlightened, more progressive if you will, than the customer because of his/her rejection of religion and because of that, should not have been bothered with the gentleman's intrusion. Not holding a belief in religion does not make one more liberal/progressive. However, how one views/accepts/allows/respects the views of others does.

...not as a definitive judgment of what you meant by "allowing". However, I still fail to see where the concept of "allowing" makes sense in your previous post. You have explained yourself further, but in doing so I didn't get any sense of how the word "allowing" applied to the OP, the rest of the thread, or anyone else other than governments with restrictions on religious beliefs and people actively persecuting religious believers, none of which seem apropos to this thread.

Can you give an example of one person not "allowing" another person there religious beliefs that does apply to what you were trying to say?

I am not interested in a discussion about semantics

...but I consider the common abuse of the word "allow" a pernicious blurring of the lines between the negative act of repression and the positive act of vigorous debate. Since this blurring so often comes up in the context of religion, it helps feed the notion that religious faith has to be treated with kid gloves, that it's a special off-limits subject with greater protection from criticism and examination that other areas of human thought, such as politics.

You're part of the problem. My challenge of your use of the word has been vindicated.

I must have missed that memo.

I allow people their beliefs. It doesn't mean that I don't criticize them. Unfortunately, people like you seem to think that criticizing a belief is the same thing as being a fascist thug out to destroy your religion.

If you have that much trouble with the meanings of words, there are plenty of free dictionaries on the internet.

"People like you"???? That "fascist thug" description might just hold some truth.

I have a problem with the meaning of words? You are the one who seems bothered by "allow". Why is that?

Or are you not able to?

Seems to be SOP in this forum anymore - just scream bullying or bigotry in lieu of actually trying to discuss anything.

It's not that they're all upset about others not believing as they do. It's that their churches have taught them that the only way to salvation is to share their faith, so if they don't want other people to go to hell, they will try to convert as many people as possible to their beliefs.

They honestly believe that if they cannot convert you, you will go to hell when you die, and it will be partly their fault if they don't at least try.

kidding aside, he probably didn't mean to attack your belief (or lack thereof). More likely, he's trying to confirm to himself that his life means something. Good of you not to lay into him.

Some atheists can be annoyingly evangelical about it. There's a contradiction in there somewhere, but I'm not smart enough to verbalize it. I'll settle for agnosticism (The Big Dunno).

:hi:

edit to add: not saying you sound evangelical, just a random rant. :)

by allowing him to speak his beliefs. After all he is cramming for the finals.

om my - :hi: Thanks for the laugh!

Those are the ones that really get my goat.

They're both questions that are equally personal.

How did he enjoy his invisible food?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYNNzdqFKOQ

:shrug:

and no other belief systems have merit. All you can do in that situation is what you did--nod, smile, be polite about it, show respect, and move on.

I had some work done on my house over the summer; the lead carpenter on the team of contractors was a born-again. He usually didn't talk about his beliefs, but when he got started--look out--he didn't stop. I wasn't sure what to do about it (because I'm a witch, what he said bothered me immensely), so I bided my time.

And after several weeks, I learned that this man may be an over-the-top evangelical Focus on the Family fan...but he expressed his faith out of pure joy and belief in it. I had to respect that even though I didn't agree with it. I also found out he is a remarkable carpenter who always made a point of doing the absolute best job he could (and that's saying something, considering our old house is as lopsided and out of square as an amusement park funhouse) and a kind, generous soul who went out of his way numerous times to help me out with work I was doing on other parts of the house. I ended up liking him immensely--even when he saw me writing an article for a New Age magazine and asked me how I synthesized the subject of the article with my "Christianity." (I don't know how he assumed that I was a Christian...)

What I mean is, as much as we like to bash Those of Other Beliefs here on DU (whether it's about religion or a different political bent), these people are not two-dimensional black-and-white cardboard cutouts. They are flesh and blood human beings, and unless they reveal themselves to be as utterly evil as Dick Cheney, we should remember that they are just as multifaceted as we are. And all people should be shown respect until they prove themselves not worthy of it for whatever reason.

You done good, Army. :hi:

Either Evangelical Christianity is correct and failure to believe in their version of JC is the only way to avoid hell OR it's wrong.

But then he asked me if I was a Christian. Being aware of the fact that I work on tips, I decided to go along with it.

and this

I didn't tell him that I had already done so once and had since rejected God's existence (an unforgivable sin according to the bible). I simply nodded my head and went along with it.

Need I say more?

I went along with his speech, not with his values. When you let someone talk, you make gestures that you are understanding what they are saying; like nodding your head.

I let him speak his mind because I wanted his money.

I even told him that I wasn't christian. You'd think that such a whore would avoid admitting that at all costs.

Seems to me, that your story was about a guy that proselytized to you, and against your nature to contradict him, you did not do so in order to get a tip. If I misread your story, my apologies.

a 70 year old man who might be lonely and needing to feel like he's helping someone.

Trying to bring others to Christ is a requirement of religion. Personally, I believe that Santa is the truth and the light.

I just don't see God as an extortionist.

Then see if he's a real man and tips you anyway, despite your disagreement.

If not, fuck him, don't need his money.

A former coworker came in to visit, and another coworker has just had a baby. Coworker #2 was describing some of the scarier ways that human anatomy gets rearranged to bring another life into the world. I think her quote was "I think (Husband) is a little bit traumatized after seeing that."

Former coworker, who's never had kids, then started to wax poetic about how wonderful and "miraculous" the human body is. She finished up by saying "Yeah, I don't know how anyone can not believe in God, because you know that did not just snap, crackle, pop."

I didn't comment because I try never to get into controversial discussion with coworkers, and she was going to be out the door in about five minutes anyway. But it still irks me whenever religious people blithely exercise the privilege of greater numbers to just feel free to spout off about their beliefs.

I would never even consider chiming into that conversation with something like, "Yeah, I don't know how anyone who has been pregnant can think we're intelligently designed. Your internal organs get shoved around and ligaments get stretched out. You're always just slightly incontinent afterward. And for crying out loud, you'd think an all-powerful god would design a birth canal with enough stretch that the horror of an episiotomy would never be necessary...or at LEAST wouldn't involve creating an open wound into an area where fecal matter is present." Even if that's what I'm thinking.

"Just a second. Don't tell me what God is until you can tell me what we are first."

I suggest you try it. Most of the answers are amusing.

and not necessarily about religion.

It might be right-wing politics.

It might be some health issue.

It might be trying to "correct" some common idea about history.

The fact that he started in out of the blue makes me suspect that he's one of those. If it hadn't been Christianity, it would have been the virtues of prune juice.

I have care-giving staff for a few hours a day a couple days a week to help run errands and take me to appointments because of my Asperger's Syndrome and on day I had a staff that tried to get me to read a little booklet of prayers, I refused, telling him I was not religious, he kept on pushing it. I called my PC (the person who over oversees the staff) and he got fired the next day, thank goodness.

asked me if I realized that if the letters for Santa were rearranged they spell Satan. I was setting up a Christmas display at the place I worked and I said "Of course I realize that, but the story of Santa Claus is about a Saint, and Santa means Saint." She looked at me for a second and said "well I know the story of Santa Claus and Santa isn't Saint, Santa Claus is against everything Jesus stood for and by spelling it with the same letters as Satan they proved that." I said "Well, what is God spelled backwards?" She reported me to my boss and he told me not to get involved in discussions like that with customers. It only happened a handful of times that religious stuff came up with customers but I try to be nice and still throw my own thing in there to either shut them up or change the topic. I shoulda offred her half price on a Santa hat to burn.

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