Good Without God

why would atheist feel driven to evangelicize? Do they think that it would make a better world?

...in terms of asking respondents if they would accept a president who were female or black or gay or atheistic.

So they're trying to raise awareness that being an atheist doesn't mean being a bad person.

to see atheists speaking out like this, in this venue.

it's pretty sad that so many people have such kneejerk negative feelings towards people just because of their beliefs about god, etc.

a belief in a deity is what makes you good. I think it is to counter that idea not to evangelize.

examples of how to live. I don't believe in god is why I try to be good. Not at all.

yes it would.

in response to your post. Atheists have the same freedom of speech as you do. If someone wishes to and can afford to post a sign saying that atheists can be good people, how does that harm you or your beliefs in any way? I believe the word you were trying to spell is "evangelize," not "evangelicize," which is not a word at all.

I won't comment on the rest of your post. It's too depressing.

I didn't say anything harmed me or mention my beliefs. I simply don't get the point of why an atheist group feels the need to evagenlize. It really doesn't make sense to me. wow I am sorry if I offended your beliefs by mispelling it. I'm sorry that a simple question depressed you. You must be very fragile. Clearly it is easy to jump to a lot of conclusions from a question posted on the internet.

I didn't make any statement about what people can do with their money if they want to post a sign. I really don't care. I just don't get the motivation to spend their money in that way so I asked what the reasoning is.

Some have posted that the reason is because atheists are trying to improve their image because a poll shows they are disliked. I'm not convinced that this is the best way to accomplish that if that is the goal. Probably counter productive. Opps, sorry that wasn't a complete sentence, sorry if I depressed anyone there.

Anyway, now fundamentalist preachers all over America can prepare their Sunday sermons "Friends, right now in New York City powerful, well-funded groups of Atheists are putting up signs in every subway in the city. Every subway in New York City. Imagine that. They are bragging that they have millions of members, and inviting others to join them. Saying that you can still be "good" and be an atheist. Why not just join them? That's right. Make no mistake, this is the work of Satan, right here and now. Satan is trying so hard in these last days to get every soul he can, and this is the sort of trickery his work will bring. These groups are working hard to CONVERT people to atheism. That is what they want to do. And brothers and sisters, I can tell you this. If we do not stand firm and strong and together against this satanic message, it isn't going to stop in New York City. Oh yes, Satan is happy to get all the souls he can get in New York City, but he isn't going to stop there. If we don't stand strong those signs will be right here in Bugtustle, right here where your children can read the message that to be good, you should be an atheist. A message straight form Satan himself. A message trying to steal the eternal soul of your children. This is the battle we face, that we must face each and every day, because the next step on this plan is to put the devil's message on television and in to the shows that come right in your home - right from NEW YORK CITY - every day. (Long dramatic pause, followed by much quieter demeanor). Right now, we've got to stand together. I love each and every one of you, just like the savior loves each of you, and I want you to know one thing, one thing in your heart, that there is only one road to eternal salvation....etc. etc."

If the purpose of this campaign really is to "improve" the "poll ratings" of atheists, I think it is a little naive and doesn't show a good understanding of the people who have put those poll ratings low in the first place. But that's just my opinion of course, sorry if it depresses anyone on the internet. Sorry if i misspelled anything.

When a huge amount of people believe without foundation that atheism is the same as satanism, or is a synonym for amoral hedonism, getting the message out that it's simply an absence of god belief can't really be a bad thing unless you are scared of reducing misinformed bigotry against atheists. Who would think THAT makes a better world?

Be an atheist.

Next, look around you at the world. Some of the largest conflagrations of human misery right now are centered around religious conflict.

After that, look within the country itself. Some of the most keen moral issues of our time, the question of basic rights, are centered around religious belief. Ensconced though we are in a country whose laws are meant to be secular based on widely accepted ideas of what is right and wrong, those who look first to the Bible have denounced a woman's right to control her own procreation, have kept a real, practical sex education curriculum out of schools, have denied the basic rights to the LGBT couples to enjoy the same rights and privileges as heterosexual couples, and have even questioned the moral value of teaching science with regard to human origins without a "competing view", Biblical in origin, taught alongside.

Then, once you've done that, look within yourself. You've got the same basic moral code as everyone else. In fact, since you have no God to forgive you, no rite of penance that you can mutter, nor any day of forgiveness, nor any other religious trapping to absolve you of any wrong you've done, when you break your moral code, you have to live with it. Often, this leads you to be more strictly moral than those who have religion. Then look without and see society's attitude toward you. Generally, amongst religious people, you are treated with suspicion. You know that there is a part of them that believes that you've forsaken your soul, that you aren't even really human. And it doesn't matter how good your deeds are, nor how straight and true your moral compass points, you are something they don't understand since a belief in a god is so endemic to their way of thinking. At best, they're distrustful and at worst, they are hateful, because lack of understanding begets fear.

Now, look at the people who find you distasteful and vile because you don't believe as they do. Every day they put up a new sign telling everyone to "Find Jesus" or whatever, billboards, bumper stickers, little metal fishies (without legs or wrenches) on the backs of their cars. They are on every channel on your cable box on Sunday before noon. They have no reservations about proselytization, whether individually, or within groups. And why should they? Although I find it irritating, they do have every right.

I think a little "evangelism" on behalf of a group whose moral code seems a great deal more solid than some of those that claim to be pious could do a world of good. In addition to reacquainting people with the lost art of reason, perhaps it can do its small part to interrupt the constant stream of messages of intolerance and vengefulness that too often are located awfully close to those "holier than thou".

Perhaps the question you should be asking is "What kind of world do I live in where people could be exciorated for not possessing a faith, and have that be a socially acceptable occurrence, so much so that they need to push back on society with a campaign such as this?"

Well argued, well written, and ripped directly from the lives of everyday atheists.

:applause:

I do think it is counter productive, but more power, I hope it makes somebody feel better.

Sorry but this is no longer newsworthy. Bus and subway adds. Ohhhh. Ahhhhh.
Its old. Been done.

Those are the same scientists who devote their entire lives to healing the sick.

just make them intelligent but not wise. There should be no problem reconciling religion and science. Scientists have made mistakes in theories; theologist have made mistakes, too. The journey, whether in science or religion--if one chooses religion--should be a quest for truth, regardless of where that leads.

Sure scientists have made mistakes in theories, but religion does not seek truth it seeks myth. The Bible is filled with myths, there was no talking snake, there was no boy who lived in the belly of a whale, the Earth was not created in seven days, the Bible is a work of fiction. If people find value in the stories great, I have no problem with that as long as they don't insist that I have to believe the stories. I do have a problem however when people try to tell me a work of fiction is actually fact based. Scientists may have made mistakes in their theories, but those who try to sell us fiction as if it were fact are not just making a mistake they are intentionally trying to deceive us.

as is my husband (who considered himself and atheist for a short period in his life). We have nine children. Some of them are deeply religious. Some of them are not. We always taught them that they never, EVER had to accept anything that isn't true, but that we hoped they would learn enough about our beliefs that they could make, for themselves, a clear an honest decision about whether or not to believe and follow that religion. We encouraged them to learn about many religions so they could compare those doctrines and beliefs with ours, again so they could feel calm and secure in whatever they chose. We also taught them that any belief system which encouraged them to be good, decent, honest people was preferable to living in a world of moral relativism.

I understand, but always feel sad for people who've had religion forced on them in such a way that they spend time resenting religion in general, and ridiculing those who have faith in God. I'm grateful to live in a country where I'm free to believe and you're free not to. I would not think of forcing my beliefs on you or anyone, and would hope for the same courtesy and tolerance would be returned.

But your claim of courtesy rings hollow when you felt the need to suggest that scientists lack wisdom just because many of them are atheists. It is not very courteous to suggest that people who don't believe the words of a fictional book lack wisdom.

Why is it that only the religious or otherwise spiritual people in this world can be considered wise? From where do they get their wisdom?

Example: Pastors are often consulted when parents are confronted with behavioral problems in their children. By and large, pastors do NOT have advanced degrees in psychology, psychiatry, sociology, or behavioral sciences, but the parents of the problem child still consider the pastor wise enough to approach with these problems. Why? What knowledge in this field has the pastor gained? What wisdom does he have, and from whence did it come?

Knowledge and 'wisdom' are not mutually exclusive. In fact, knowledge must exist before wisdom can be found.

Finding mistakes in the research IS THE PURPOSE! Find the mistake, fix it, and continue on. When a scientist has a hypothesis, he/she does some research, makes some tests, etc, to see if if has merit. If so, they move on to the "theory" stage where they publish their findings and ask their peers to review and test to see if they made any mistakes. If mistakes are found, they find out why, and see if they can be corrected.

In what way does religion do ANY of this. They say "god made it happen" and thats that. No tests, no review, no proof.

Nice try, but you FAIL.

Bible says the world was created in 6 days. God rested on the 7th.

Science says the world is was created over a span of millions of years from the sun's planetary disk and is estimated to be approximately 4.5 billion years old. Nothing seemed to need rest.

Bible says man was created by God, and woman was fashioned from a rib. Neither were supposed to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, or else...

Science says that man evolved from previous forms, which in turn evolved from previous forms, and so on back to the primordial soup which first fashioned self-replicating molecules over billions of years. It also says that if there ever was a Tree of Knowledge, it might have gone extinct because never in recorded history has anyone ever eaten a fruit from any tree and become infinitely wise as a result... although someone once sat under one and claimed to have become enlightened.

Just two of many things that might cause issues reconciling religion and science.

And of course atheists give to "religious" charities too.

many blindly follow whatever religion they were often programmed to believe in as a child and can't take a neutral look and then decide what they believe in... maybe riding along in a subway will give some time to ponder... maybe some have never even thought about it... why they believe in a deity.

compare my contributions to society compared to theirs. I do several volunteer projects a year,(because it's the right thing to do, not because I fear going to hell) all they do is go to church every Sunday and complain about what other people do or don't do to their satisfaction.None have lifted a finger to do any charitable work for anyone/anything if it some how doesn't benefit them also. I used to try to get them involved but they always had some lame excuse, I don't even bother anymore.

Here you had a man who was an atheist and didn't believe that he was going to be taken to a magical place in the sky to live in eternity after death, yet he was still willing to give up a lucrative career to fight and die for his country because he thought it was the right thing to do. It's much easier to put your life on the line when you believe in an afterlife. Don't let anyone tell you that atheists don't have morals or ethics or a belief system based on doing good.

is the definition of "good"? What makes it "good"?

... with no expectation of reward for yourself, and no expectation of punishment for failing to act.

Since religious people believe an invisible person in the sky sees and knows everything, and will eventually punish or reward everyone by magic, no religious person can ever be truly "good."

Tell us how you really feel, Ian. :hi:

No, dear..Maybe the "religious" people YOU know think that..Others like, C.S. Lewis, Thomas Merton, the Dali Lama, and most DUers, I'd wager, do NOT think that.


Hint: George Carlin was a good comedian..but a third grade dropout when it came to religion.

Like the definition of good. The rest is the silliest stuff about belief and religion I've run into in a long time.

That is, without a doubt, one of the most ignorant statements I've ever read.

"Religious people" (nice broad brush there), the vast majority thereof, do NOT believe in a "spiritual scorecard" that St. Peter checks and balances to see if you get in the gate.

In fact, the view that one can do enough good deeds to "get in" is positively un-Biblical and not supported at all by scripture.

But don't let factual theology get in the way of your religion bashing.

Guess that's all you got.

I gotta give it to you, it only took you one post to get to schoolyard taunts.

Congrats.

and some like him quite a lot. Glad we get to choose.

A couple thousand years of religious bullies is more than enough.





Speaking of religious bullying, this just came up:

Global Atheist Convention under sustained and expensive DDOS attack.
Posted by Blogonaut on October 20, 2009
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=263&topic_id=38419&mesg_id=38419

Um..No..All those mentioned in my post are/were alive within the last fifty...You might want to avoid the "broad brush" type of thinking.

Mark 10 (New International Version)

...but thanks for playing.

Could you explain what you were thinking before you were ready to assert that conclusion, or were you immediately ready to assert that conclusion, without any need or desire to think?

The chrisTo-fascists don't like to be on the receiving end for a change.

Too fucking bad.

A religious person can be truly good. However, if you tell that religious person, "You are good", and that religious person happens to be Jesus, then that religious person might reply as follows: "Why do you call me good? No one is good—except God alone."

Let us pray that one day someone like you will finally cure Jesus of His ignorance.

If you expect to pass an academic course and earn the reward of academic credit, then is your effort to study a failure to do what is good? To do a good thing, must you instead use fake identification to earn academic credit for somebody else?

You're graded for academic performance, not for your moral fiber.

Nice try.

Theists have turned "moral behavior" into a pass/fail academic exercise, where their behavior is graded by a professor.

Thank you for helping me make my point.

Is that a moral issue?

Is going to school when and where it is compulsory a moral issue?

Is a government's refusal to pay for the education of girls a moral issue?

Is a government's refusal to permit a girl to be educated even when the girl's parents are willing and able to pay for the education a moral issue?

... that has absolutely nothing in common with the topic at hand, it may as well be me that gets to choose what we argue about.

You chose some stupid thing about school and grades.

I thought it would be more interesting to argue about my sweater.

Sophisticated non-atheists -- and yes, we're on this BOARD -- are as inclined to believe in a "heaven in the sky" as they do in Jonah and the Whale.

Many who believe in an afterlife think it may exist in another dimension.

Stop confusing us, deliberately, it seems, with "fundies" or your own first grade understanding of religion.

is no less ridiculous than a heaven in the sky, if we're being honest.

You know little or nothing about physics.

Before labelling something "ridiculous"..It's good to know what you are talking about.:smoke:

God and the 5th Dimension (the physics variety, not the group from the 70s) have something in common...

Both exist on a list of things whose criteria for entry upon it are as follows:

1) Are Hypothesized to Exist
2) Provide Answers to Difficult Questions
3) Inspire Speculation and Wonder
3) Are Not Proven to Exist

"Heaven in the sky" is then roughly equal in concept to "another dimension" if we look at the concept from these terms.

when anybody adds the term "sophisticated" to anything.

to offer to the discussion.:eyes:

Any other personal proclivities you'd like us to know about? :eyes:

Hint: The word "sophisticated" has a broader application than that seen in fashion mags, dear..You might want to check that.

What makes me a bit uncomfortable is the name, "Coalition of Reason". That implies they are not just asking for equivalent regard, but are suggesting they are superior to religious people in that they use reason over belief.

People all just need to leave each other alone to believe what they want. Why should one group of holier-than-thous be replaced with yet another?

While its never good to think you are "superior" to someone else, I really dont have a problem with feeling, say "more informed, rational and enlightened" than religious people.

then they can dismiss your argument simply by saying 'You think you're better than me.'

Of course, that's ad hom, but it doesn't stop them.

"you think youre better than me" is the last verbal comment of someone who had nothing left to support their position, then they call you Hitler.....

but yeah, you're right.

were it can be read...may be the place where a young one and those older, also, first find out about the word atheism and
how and where they can go to do further research to find out more.

When I was in fifth or sixth grade I knew I thought differently...felt different about the
religion surrounding me. I wish I had seen a poster with a phone number or address to contact so
I could have learned more then.


Tikki

doesn't belittle anyone else, offers like-minded people a sense of belonging, and educates.

No ridicule, no proselytizing, just a message.

I think NYC is a city where it doesn't really matter whether you are an atheist or not. It is more of a big deal in other parts of the country.

And it's probably coming from where I do that I don't know a lot of people who see atheism as any sort of deal at all, never mind big.

I'm sure that's different down south, for instance.