For what one Christian's opinion is worth...

I see no need for a National Day of Prayer. Every day is an opportunity for prayer. Having faith and living that faith is not something that needs to be assigned to a date on the calendar. In fact, attaching such importance to the fight over this issue belittles everything we Christians have been taught to believe about prayer. Since some are so fond of trotting out convenient scripture, I'll play along this time...

Matthew 6:5-13

5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.' 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


Seen a lot of religious talking heads on the news lately, but not one of them has mentioned what Jesus might make of this ridiculously politicized circus of self-important modern day pharisees. They haven't mentioned Matthew or the Lord's Prayer either. Go figure.


:shrug:

Because the question of whether or not it is constitutional - which I realize is the public issue at hand - is really secondary to me as a Christian. I don't mean that I don't respect the law, because I do. Only that it should never have even gotten to the point of being a legal or political battle. Prayer is personal. That doesn't mean it can't be shared. I happen to believe that it should be shared. But it sure as hell isn't something that ought to be mandated or legalized or formalized by the government. And I don't think that those who are railing against Obama over this issue are, to borrow a pop culture phrase that actually fits, doing what Jesus would do.

Again, just one simple Christian's view. Might be worth two pennies if I'm lucky tonight.

:)

The motives behind things like the "national day of prayer", "in God we Trust", "under God", etc. are purely political and quite nefarious. These things are implemented knowing they will be contested and it allows the political right to accuse all opposition of being godless.

http://ffrf.org/news/releases/judge-rules-in-favor-of-ffrf-in-suit-against-national-day-of-prayer/ (Contains link to the decision text and quotes some passages.)

The passage I'm reminded of is this one:
The judge also quotes Matthew 6:5.

I've used the same reasoning when discussing public prayers or school prayers, they don't get it.

I'd hate to be them on judgment day.





:hi:

Hope life has been good to you.

:hug:

I hope life is good for you and that you and yours are doing well. :hug:

Your points are well made...

Though I think if I had started a thread bitching about the need for a National Day of Prayer it probably would have gotten more attention. Oh well. I tried.

:)

I don't understand your response.

:shrug:

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

Snap. Pharisees just want to get caught in the act of praying out loud. It's a great ancient example of someone getting served. But it still holds true, the people who want a prayer day (or prayer in the schools for that matter) want to be thought of as religious--so, they crusade for a religious trapping. But nothing stops them from using their "inside voice" to pray. For the prayer day people--if you want a day of prayer--pray today! And if you want prayer in schools: I'm sure kids pray silently all the time before tests and such--just not in any organized fashion. And maybe that's more individualistic and honest than rotely doing it as a group--it's not for me to say, I'm just throwing it out there.

I don't pray myself. I have my daily bread that I earned, my debts, my temptations, and as an atheist, I have to deal with them myself. I don't begrudge others their prayers, I only think they should be one's own dealings with their god, not anyone else's.

Sad that so many who claim to represent him today fall into one or both categories.

I appreciate you posting here and sharing your views on this as an atheist. Especially appreciate that you get that there are some of us Christians that have no interest in forcing our beliefs down your throat.

:toast:

begs the question of whether believers are off the hook for the other 364 days a year.

Knowing Tartuffe in all his modern forms, I'd say that's the case and why they're fighting so hard to keep it.

You get it.

Good to see a familiar screen name or two still hanging around here.

:)

... so I had to comment.

:hi:

I mostly lay low these days. Better for the blood pressure. :)

Maypole Dances and Halloween costume parades at elementary school to the kids that would enjoy them.

The constant attacks on books that children find delightful(Oz Books, Harry Potter Series, and the like)and that they really want to read must stop.

Either you responded in the wrong place, or that brownie I ate a bit ago was more than it seemed.

Okay, now that I have that out of my system... ;-)

You can take the girl out of the church, but it's hard to take the church out of the girl. Since I left my church, I have met an appalling number of Christians that don't seem to comprehend what they read, and that passage from Matthew points it out to anyone who cares to even attempt to understand the words of Christ.

I can't even imagine what the Christ of the New Testament would say about the "National Day of Prayer", the treatment of those of a different sexual orientation, divorced people, children molested by church officials, the poor, the homeless, on and on and on. Mostly, I look forward to the consternation when many of those who believed themselves to be among the Spiritually Elect discover that maybe, just maybe, they're not. For those who truly seek the face of God, every day is a national day of prayer, and those prayers are offered privately.

Of course, IMHO, YMMV.
It's good to see you! :woohoo:

-MV

Wait a minute.

Hmmmm....

Oops.

What I meant to say was MIIISSSSSSSYYYYY!!!

:hug:

Progressive and Moderate "persons of faith" are content to do so privately.

We do not institute religion in the US, at least not on the governmental level, nor should we.

Some people pray, others don't; some people believe, others don't; all have their feelings on this. For atheists and agnostics, it's far simpler, no one to pray to. But then we come down to various faiths, which one is "right", if any of them?

Prayer should be a personal thing, it is a time for reflection, a time when we not only ask for some injustice to be resolved, some protection from the hard realities of life, but also for the wisdom we might find if we tried just a little harder to seek it out. Prayer should be seen as more meditation than anything else; it is a time where one asks for guidance rather than a quick clean and sweep. Meditation rarely works in a setting where tens, hundreds or thousands are all chanting some different thing toward the heavens. The honest Judeo-Christian view is toward "private" prayer because meditation is a part of the process, it gives us a chance to unload to another party and straightens out our thought process so an individual can come to a clearer understanding of the problem and make intelligent, thought out decisions.

As in counseling and in therapy, we are told we must confront our problems and work them out, some coaching from the side is not a bad thing, but usually, we can work things out if we quietly think about them. Prayer aids in this process. For some, it alleviates a guilt they may have, for others, barriers are removed because the process has brought about a clarity, born of rational thought, away from the squealing of life and all of it's demands and inherent problems. In a setting where one is alone with their spirituality, it is easier to work things out, easier to find a path that is easier. All great thinkers have had to have time "alone". Throughout the Bible, many of the epiphanies come about because someone has been either cast out of society, or walked away from it for a bit. Whether the "answer came through Divine revelation", or just because it was quiet is up for discussion, but the point is, the people who came up with world changing ideas came up with them when they were alone...they took the time to figure things out.

To bring this into full circle, when people gather to "pray", they are invariably "guided" by someone who may not have the faintest idea of what the religion they espouse is all about. They have already done their cherry-picking, they have already decided that their way is the "only" way, and others follow this train of thought. The people who show up at things like this do not think, they merely follow, and thinking is what prayer is all about...far too many people have lost that aspect, maybe because it's so simple it is seen as, "that can't be it". Sometimes, the simplest answer is the true answer.

Thanks, Ras. As usual, you get it.

:applause:

"I think, therefore I am"...can't get much simpler than that...:D

So many people these days who attest themselves to a religion are using whatever religion the ascribe to to do harm to others. Sometimes, it's to exclude them from society, at other times it is to kill and maim others. Both cases show me a very strong lack of understanding said religion.

I recall Jesus saying, "you shall know them by their works"...a huge # of Christians are in deep trouble. They have excluded the compassion, the empathy the caring the understanding, the better things of Christianity. They use the religion to bludgeon ohters into submisioon...not all, but a good many of them.

Islam has it's serious problems as well, where is there a thought that blowing one's self up and taking innocents w/you some kind of religious tenet? That is, as far as I'm concerned insane. Hasn't anyone come up with..."if this is such a good idea, why don't you do it?", to those that call for such things?

Religion does not exclude sociopaths or psychopaths from their "leadership", Fred Phelps is a prime example...as are a few mullahs.

But it could get really horrific, what if some Aztec followers decided to show up at a National Day of Prayer meet-up? I could see it now...human sacrifice and all...;)

was supportive of the argument against sanctioned prayer in public schools. And also against hypocrites in general.

:)

You do know there's a whole forum just for people who believe in myths, fairy tales, and religion, don't you?

Maybe it did take me two threads to discuss the National Day of Prayer. Which is pretty clearly a matter of national debate and not only something being discussed in religious circles, but I guess that is beside the point.

On the bright side, it only took one quick read of your self-righteous bit of snark above to understand what a narrow-minded asshole you are.

:hi:

Not only is it confrontational, throwing it in the face of anyone who might not agree with some particular idea of prayer, but it's a cynical ploy for smarmy politicans to get their "I'm a Christian" cred from the unbending televangelist crowd.

Lessee just how they like a hundred Muslims unrolling their prayer rugs and kneeling by the Washington Monument on Prayer Day. Or Hasidim rocking and wailing their prayers by the Holocaust Museum. Buddhists with prayer wheels?

Hindus pray, too, don't they?

Mention the Lord's Prayer? Might as well bring up the Sermon on the Mount-- there are some things they just can't touch without getting burned. The Lord's Prayer mentions forgiveness, a lot, and that has no place in their world.

(So, how ya doin? It's been a while.)

Prayer rugs being rolled out at the Washington Monument...Heads would explode!...:rofl:

I can see it now, a forest of self appointed crucifixions... "We'll show THEM!!111!!"