I don't believe in god, is there something wrong with me?

trying not to offend, so bear with me. how come i don't believe in god? i used to, till i was about 20 or so, and every now and then, i almost do, like when massive disasters strike, but i just can't bring myself to believe in a supreme being. i've tried to, even delved into buddhism and eastern philosophies, but that didn't' work either.

is there something in my head that isn't wired correctly? virtually all my friends believe in god and go to church, and i don't personally know any other atheists like myself, why am i such an oddball? why don't i ever call upon god when i'm in distress, or when i am in need? why don't i believe in the power of prayer? i just can't seem to make that plunge.

why is it that some folks accept the existence of god so readily and naturally, and others don't? when people find out i don't believe in god, they seem distressed to hear it, and some say they wish they could change my mind. i am a minority among the whole human population, because most folks do believe in some sort of god, why can't i? am i not trying hard enough? not that i want to.

i don't think it has anything to do with intelligence, all of the believers i know are quite intelligent. i almost feel like a freak sometimes because i don't have that 'god feeling' in my head. i used to pray to god, very sincerely, when i believed, but of course there was no answer, not in words, or deeds. did i pray wrong?

about the only feelings i can come up with in regard to a supposed god is anger and disappointment. and i don't expect to have a god epiphany anytime, either from some catastrophe or some great fortune.
just what the hell is wrong with me?

I don't believe in god either. So we are both OK.

"Because it feels good" isn't a valid reason for me to believe something. And ultimately, that's all I can figure out is a justification for god beliefs.

When it comes down to it, that's their (the theists') only justification.

That and 'God works in mysterious ways.' :eyes:

No one can do or say anything to change your mind, so go with it.

I however, do believe in God. Is there something wrong with me? (don't answer that :D)

As a former believer, I don't think I chose either way.

Is a Christian concept that has no bearing on my personal philosophy. That's the same, to me, as an atheist, as talking about the 'reality' of 'original sin'.

If that makes sense.

If I was a bed, I would stay unmade.
If I was a river, I'd run uphill

And if you call me-
You Know I Will.

Those wonderful lines, to me, nail the paradox of "free will". I Am Who I Am. Is that my choice? Certainly. But I wouldn't choose otherwise.

'Free will' to me, only exists insofar as it provides an opposite and explanation and salvation for/from 'original sin'.

And therefore is not part of my philosophy at all. Neither is the Egyptian cat god.

One of my favorite books. In it, the aliens who interact with the protagonist express puzzlement at the notion of free will. Nothing to do with a supreme being: they are just puzzled that earthlings, of all the creatures of the universe, believe they are free to pick and choose their destinies.

Although free will is certainly the basis of our criminal justice system: that those who err choose to do so and must be punished.

You think too much.

From another happy atheist!

:hi:

his name is TRUTH

If there is, then there's something wrong with me, and my family, and millions of other people.

I believe in a higher power. I don't know what form it takes, or to what degree we interact, but I do believe that there's something bigger out there.

It's your personal belief system. As long as people treat others and the world around them well, I consider them a friend. Your actions are infinitely more important that your professed beliefs, IMO. :hi:

Many people don't believe in God, mopaul.

My 6 year-old daughter told me recently, "I pray and pray and God doesn't talk to me." She meant in the literal, have a conversation kind of talk.

I won't get preachy because I don't have all of the answers. Heck, I've had links sent to me that I haven't had time to review that offer up some "reasons" why people do/don't believe in God.

You cannot expect a burning bush type answer from God. He does not work that way anymore, I don't believe. He answers, though. I can assure you of that.

Regardless and not trying to get preachy - there is nothing wrong with you. I'm sorry that you cannot feel the love of God like I do. I hope and pray that you will but it's not something that you can force, I've found.

God speaks loudest when we are quiet.

have a penis?

Otherwise, why not say "Goddess"?

In the Bible, the holy book that I follow, God is referred to as the "Father" and the pronoun "He" is used throughout the Bible.

To me, it is blasphemous for me to say "Goddess." It's the way that I was taught and what I believe.

I am a feminist and all of that but I was taught and God is my Heavenly Father and that is what I believe.

I am open-minded enough not to slam on anyone who says "Goddess" or doesn't believe in God at all. I give respect to those who worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster with its noodly appendage. I just ask the same.

The reason I ask is, in other threads debating things like the pledge of allegiance, some people have tried and will try to argue that the word "God" doesn't MEAN anything, or it doesn't mean the Western concept of "God", or it can mean "compassion", or "The Universe", or what-have-you.

To me, in my mind, when people say "God", it seems to me they're generally talking about the western, anthropomorphic, bearded man in the sky concept. So, yes, making kids include "under God" in the pledge of allegiance is a specific religious ritual and it doesn't belong in public school.

I realize that's not the topic of this thread but I wanted to bring it up.

I also want to quote your earlier post:

"I'm sorry that you cannot feel the love of God like I do. I hope and pray that you will but it's not something that you can force, I've found."

Now, okay. Let's just get clear on a couple things- first off, I have no doubt that you are well intentioned in these sentiments and you don't feel they contradict your stated intent not to "slam" anyone who doesn't believe as you do. However, when you talk about 'praying' that someone else will come to see things your way, you are in essence saying, "well, you are deluded but I'm going to take it upon myself to gently chide you by saying I hope someday you'll see the error of your ways".

Again, this is similar in many ways to Christians who don't see the "harm" in school-sponsored prayers or can't understand why anyone wouldn't appreciate receiving the "good news".

Me? Personally? No, I don't believe in the western, anthropomorphized concept of "God", gender and all. (The Tao is traditionally considered female, so I guess I probably lean that direction in terms of the ineffable inexpressible infinite mysteries, but I'm also a hetero man so I'm biased :))But not only do I respect people who feel differently, I have absolutely no interest in changing their minds about it at all, as long as their faith doesn't require them to do things like screw with my wife's birth control prescription or force my kids to learn about Noah's ark in science class. I don't "pray for" you because you're a believer, nor do I have any interest in changing your mind about these things.

While you may mean well in saying that you pray mopaul will "feel gods love", understand that to some folks it comes off sounding just a tad patronizing.

I am so sorry that I answered this post.

Mopaul, buddy, there is nothing wrong with you whatsoever.

I am not going to argue what I meant or didn't mean here. It always ends up the same way: Folks say that I'm being condescending when I'm not and then someone will post and say that I'm mentally ill because I believe in God. They'll even send links.

I think that half of what is being read into my post by you and others is a reflection of what you have experienced - condescension from others who do try to force things upon you. You are projecting that on me.

I am an honest person. I do wish that mopaul could feel God's love as I do - so that is what I wrote. I will NOT be shamed into denying what I think and believe because someone thinks that I'm being condescending. And I will not let you make me feel bad for saying something from the heart.

I could easily turn that around on others who say that I'm stupid/crazy/drinking the kool-aid but "hey, whatever you want to delude yourself into thinking is fine with us." That's condescending to me as well.

And, for the record, I am against saying "under God" in the pledge, against prayer in school and against folks trying to force their religion on others.

Not me.

Really, I think I couched my point pretty gently, and honestly I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but I do think its a valid point. It's like the Grateful Dead; I like 'em, and lots of people I know can't stand 'em. I'm certain the lives of many of them might be richer if they saw the depth, quality, and liberation in the music that I do, but it's really no skin off my nose if they don't. And if I went around to, say, Celine Dion fans blasting the Scarlet--->Fire from 5-8-77, telling them how much better their lives would be if they would just "Get" it, It's probably fair to assume some of them might get a little irritated.

(And you know what? I would probably be totally convinced I was doing them a favor... and I probably wouldn't be ashamed of it, either.)

But, come on- what you said can be taken as condescencion, it's not hard to see how- and I think for fair minded believers, which I believe you are (particularly those who are aware of what more rigid, right-wing theocrats are doing in this country on a daily basis in the name of the same religions... they aren't your responsibility, but it's worth remembering that unbelievers and non-christians are kind of under seige these days) it's maybe, just maybe not a bad thing to keep in mind.

Peace.

Is there any point at which one could safely say (in response to NEVER feeling the love of god) that god really doesn't exist? Or do you always blame the petitioner, that we aren't "quiet" enough or otherwise doing something wrong?

If you read my post, can you find where I was blaming mopaul?

I was taught and was repeating what I have learned and what I believe: God speaks loudest when we are quiet. That helped me out when I would pray and then question why God wasn't answering me. I thought that it might help mopaul.

In no way, shape, form or fashion is that a blame on anyone. How can I blame anyone anyway?? Who am I to say that anyone is praying incorrectly or whatnot? I am not the be-all, end-all judge of how folks pray and don't believe that I am.

Do not turn around my words that I said, intending to comfort, into a blame of anyone because that is NOT what I meant or intended.

If you think that I would do that then you are just way off base.

But the essence of your post is undeniable: "God answers, but maybe you just aren't hearing him." You certainly mean well, but I can take that no other way than "You're just doing something wrong."

If you knew me, you'd know exactly what I meant. I am the least judgemental person when it comes to how people practice or don't practice their religion.

The essence of your post is saying, "Arnheim, you are a judgemental person." That is not the case but whatever. You don't know me so you won't be persuaded by my words here.

should not be my fault.

I don't think you're being intentionally judgmental, I have just always thought that the general theme of "God speaks, but are you listening" is condescending at best.

Go back to my original question - is there any point at which someone can assume there is no god, rather than that they aren't listening correctly?

I believe that there is a God. I have friends who reached the point where they believed that there isn't a God. I've never questioned their decision or their beliefs either way.

there are people that pray to god and wait to hear him/her/it reply. But they hear nothing. So they keep on praying and listening. Still nothing. So they try harder and listen to all the things running through their head and out of a desperate need to hear god pick a voice in their own head to be god.

The only thing I wonder is how do you tell the difference between that voice and the real voice of god.

Like the Zen parable- the student comes running in to the master and says, "I think I understand- that rock over there is inside my head!"

To which the Master replies; "You must have a very big head- to hold a rock that size"

you know the rest. :evilgrin:

Hallelujah! Et Spiritus Spaghetti, Al Dente Fettucini. (r)Amen.

god that was "made in our image".. and they can believe in that... Some people see an infinitely connected web of life that is every living thing.. and they can believe in that

(then there are the noodly appendages.....)

nothing is wrong with you

try letting go of the "being" part...

and i get close. but that stuff is never mentioned in the bible.

about what was up there, they were made the guests of honor at Church-sponsored Barbecues.

People have been working on this problem since the first caveman looked up...

How old are you now? I gave up on the fairy tale stuff when I was 11, but it took me another 20 years or more to be able to admit it to other people. Don't let it be like this for you. You are just one of us nut-jobs who prefer fact-based reality, and that's OK. Welcome to the crowd.

There are a lot of atheists out there, who share the same (un)belief as you.

:shrug:

and it just kind of happened. Some of it is cultural, I am sure. Some of it comes from life experiences, some of it by just thinking.

I wouldn't worry about it at all. I don't think it is an all or nothing situation. There are a lot of gray areas.

You don't need to believe in "god" to still find awe in the universe and the miracle of birth and love.

I have a close friend who calls herself an atheist, but she is also a scientist, and I think that her belief in science is really her religion. She has complete trust that there is a rational reason for all phenonema and that it all fits together perfectly (the universe). To me, you don't need to believe in a single intelligence outside of ourselves in order to have "faith."

I believe that the human concept of God is so small and finite we are probably ALL wrong. But we shouldn't get so tied up in looking that we forget to live every moment right now.

We are all most certainly at least mostly wrong..
The proof of the pudding is in the eating after all..

there of immortals running things. Some are good and some are evil. Most are probably neither, like us. I never could buy the idea of one guy out there running everything. Think of the work load. I'm sure there is a head programmer or clock mechanic out there, who coordinates things, but he's probably no more important than the others
.
The universe is one big cosmic clock you know? It keeps time and all of creation and us are part of the works. We are allowed a certain amount of latitude or free will to make choices, but not enough to gum up the works permanently.

will change the way you approach faith (in a positive way) from the minute you finish the first chapter. Prayer doesn't have to be Godlike to be effective, and it doesn't have to consist of reciting memorized lines either. All you gotta do to have "outside forces" work for you is to believe strongly enough in them and they'll interact with your own subconscious forces.

People who pray to God will not necessarily like this book for obvious reasons.

those who believe really have no business defining Him for anyone else

people can - and do - make Him to be anything we want mostly when we want someone to believe as we do and to push a destructive agenda (thanks bush)

it should be a personal matter
and with all personal matters we are heavily shaped by our upbringing with all the good and the bad we experience

i believe in God very passionately and consistently but i completely understand those who dont or who arent sure and everyone in between

we are our life experiences and given all the destructive and beautiful forces in this world its natural that our beliefs reflect that same wide ever-changing spectrum

you're certainly not alone. I think there would be more atheists if people weren't raised to believe a certain thing. My parents were Catholic, and had such bad experiences with catholic school that they wanted their kids to be able to do their own thing. We went to midnight mass on Christmas, and I was always aware that they believed in god, but I was never told to think about it one way or another. Consequently, though I dabbled in teen church groups, and had religious friends, it just never caught on with me. What I've seen in my life doesn't lead me to believe in a supernatural being. That's all there is to it for me.

Now, I would also say that one of the arguments for the existence of god among religious people is that everyone in the whole world naturally has a sense or understanding of a higher power. Well...I don't...and you don't...so...??

'Are all the millions of people who believe, throughout the whole world - wrong? Are you smarter than them, Stella?'

My answer?

YES!

First off our beliefs come about by way of our life experience. Each event leaves its traces on our mind by way of their emotional relevance or repitition. And since we all walk different paths we each come to our own set of beliefs.

Neurology could well play a part in it as well. Studies have shown that there does seem to be a difference between observation patterns of skeptics vs believers. When shown a series of chaotic patters interspersed with actual patters skeptics tend to show a better hit rate at discerning the chaotic patterns from the actual patterns. The believers tend to have a lot more false positives. That is they see patterns when there are not really any patterns present. Though statistically fewer it is worth noting that the skeptics missed more patterns that were actually present than the believers did.

As our minds develop we create filters to help us determine if new information is true or false. The more we learn the more detailed the filters become. They tend to also build along certain lines of thinking depending on the beliefs that develop. Thus a kid that somehow begins developing their skeptics bull detecting kit early on may not as readily accept to stories presented to them about god.

Once we reach adulthood the positions and beliefs are fairly well cemented in place in our mind. But new ideas linked into accepted positions can overwhelm the balance and cause a shift. This is what happens to those that once used to believe and find themself doubting their old ideas. A struggle ensues and depending on a number of factors they may jetison their old beliefs and start rebuilding their world view. This is not an easy time. It can be very stressful depending on how much rebuilding they have to do.

Buddhist monks' scans are unique in neural efficiency.

They have trained their minds to focus on differing areas. I would well imagine their brains should perform differently. Not sure what that has to do with my comments though. Buddhists as a general rule do not necissarily believe in gods. They may have other paranormal beliefs but the regimen of mental exercises certainly places them into a unique category.

Your post, although well-worded, polarized into camps of believers and non-believers.

I always enjoy you well tempered posts, BTW.

The study was based on selfproffessed skeptics and believers of the paranormal ie psychics, astrologers, etc.

the opportunity to look up at the starry sky and be amazed that the universe has created consciousness to the point that it can look back on itself with wonder. I just love it. And I don't need to insert a God in there to screw things up. (Nipples for men? Polio? forget it!)

But seriously though, there's nothing wrong with you. I haven't felt especially religious since probably my late teens or so.

I feel like you do. Tried Catholicism at age 19, but it 'didn't work' for me, either. ;)

I think, in general, the people I have met who are nontheists are either more intelligent/thoughful or more honest than theists. Unable to stand the cognitive dissonance required of intelligent 'believers'.

Just my opinion, though. I know that's a sweeping generalization, so don't flame me.

(time and place are tricky, liquid things anyway)

:woohoo:

So it may be a better fit for the religion and theology group.

Generals?

falls into category that is already established as a subgroup I can well imagine the sense of moving it there. Nonpolitical discussions can certainly start up in GD. But general discussion about politics tends to be its focus. If its not politics its usually in the Lounge or in subgroups more atuned to the subject.

:yoiks:

and see how long it lasts.

mostly for that one dish.

I mean, at least Col. Sanders never really tried to be a military man.

I find it quite implausible that there's a big benevolent white guy with a bushy beard pushing us around a universal chess board, and that this guy is responsible for all existence. Where did he come from? How did he come into being?

The much simpler answer, I think, is that we aren't, and might never be, capable of understanding the circumstances surrounding the origins of existence, but that it's something worth looking into through logical and scientific means. Religious creation stories aren't useless - they provide insight into the times in which they were first written, which is obviously useful information to have - but it's highly unlikely that any of them actually explain where it is that we come from.

I'm not a believer either; yet I can't fully abandon the idea that I may be wrong. I do believe in the teachings of Jesus and try to live my life according to those tenets. Where that will get me when it is all over will be up to others. I just hope to make an impact in some small way.

Here is where my "problem" lies. About five years ago my husband had open heart surgery. I was a total wreck before it began. The hospital chaplin came into the room and asked if he could pray with us. After that prayer I felt the burden of worry lift from me. I can't explain it. I can't deny it happened.

I expect I'll continue just as I am and let the chips fall where they may. I think Frank Lloyd Wright explained my position best when he said, "I believe in God, only I spell it Nature."

My personal opinion is that the widespread belief in some sort of higher power started from being unable to explain the world and it's marvels, was used by rulers and tyrants to gain and be able to sustain power, and then became so common in thought and ritual that it was hard to shake - despite every bit of evidence to the contrary. Even today, it is tradition, and children are brought up in it from a very young age, told it is the truth, and blocked off from anything that seems to contradict it. Even most who aren't as openly agnostic or athiest still seem to have many of those beliefs (even if they are more open minded about it), and I think that simply has a lot to do with the fear of death.

My family always told me I was the black sheep because I was too smart, independant, and strong-willed. I'm not sure if any of that is true, but they have always talked about how hard it is to 'convert' people like me. Personally I always contributed it to freethought, and how, from the start, I wasn't ever going to just take someone's word for truth. Also, I always thought that I could get myself out of any situation.. and I guess I just didn't need anything insubstantial to fall back on after I knew how thunderstorms worked and they were no longer so scary. I think it's the same kind of thing that drives 'Intelligent Design'. Why would someone give up and say 'It must be beyond our comprehension!'? That, to me, is the worst form of thought I can think of, and is the exact opposite of why humanity has been able to advance beyond our savage, barbarian roots.

I always say: Raise children to be open minded, thoughtful, and well-educated, regardless of your beliefs, and when they come of age we'll see how many sing the praises of god, and how many sing the praises of nature.

Ever since I saw the documentary on the Rawanda massacre I have been having doubts.Over 200 people sought refuge at a Christian Mission with a statue of Jesus on the wall of the court yard building with arms beckoning. Their last hope, only to be hacked to death.

Have you considered that Jesus did save those people? Our lives here on Earth are infinitesimal compared to the eternity that awaits. What if every one of those people who were hacked to death are as Jesus' side right now?

Anyway, If anybody's "up there" with Jesus (and her mother) it's probably the folks from Rwanda.


It's certainly not going to be these Republican phony-ass Faux Xtians who glorify warfare, hate and greed while bitching about gay marriage and premarital sex.

I never looked at it that way before.

I wonder how the mothers who had to watch while their children were cut down by machetes feel about that.

So, using your logic, CHimpy McJeebus really did the poor dead folks in NOLA a favor. I mean, they're MUCH better off now that they're with god than when they were sponging off the government, right?

What website am I on?


:banghead:

You are on a website that promotes the Democratic party, its candidates and ideals.

More specifically, you are on the Religion and Theology messageboard. FWIW, a very large majority of Democrats are theists.

spread by the devout.

Reminds me of the good christians I work with.

Does that mean we tell homosexuals to go away?

A very large majority of Democrats are white. Should we tell minorities to get bent?

Part of being a Democrat, *I* think, is protecting the rights of everyone, no matter how small a group they are.

No.


No way.


Exactly. I couldn't agree more.

My post was in response to the question "what website am I on?" Well, it's not an atheist website; it's a Democratic website. When I pointed out that a large majority of Democrats are theists, that is not to say that atheists should be told to "go away" or to "get bent." Absolutely not. I was just making the point that atheists should not be bewildered at the fact that some of the posters on this site might not agree with atheist beliefs.

and you might find it applies quite well.

Yes this is a Democratic website. And as it happens the Dems like to think of themself as the Big Tent party. That is we try to embrace as many people as we can. Particularly with an eye to making sure the smaller groups get a voice in the process. Its kinda what we think this nation is about.

As to the specifics of this channel. Atheists have been in it from day one. Its why it was set up. Conversations between atheists and theists can get quite fiesty. Thus the admins set up channels for each of the subgroups and this channel for debates on matters such as the existance of god and other controvercial subjects pertaining to religion.

If you wish to partake in a conversation with no opposition on matters of religion and god there are numerous subgroups dedicated to the various religions. We atheists even have subgroup of our own.

Do not expect to be able to exclude atheists in this channel though. We are here and we are not going away. This is as much our channel as it is yours. Hopefully we can get past the anger our sides seem to develop for one another and find some productive conversations to be had. And who knows maybe we both might learn something.

Thanks for your response. However, your post seems to imply that I object to atheists being on this channel. You could look at all of my 40 or so posts, and you would never find any hint of such an objection by me.

On the contrary, when I said that this is a Democratic website and the "Religion and Theology" messageboard, and that a large majority of Democrats are theists, it was in response to beammeupscottie's question about what website is this. It appeared to me that he was the one objecting to my expression of a theistic point of view on this website. My point was that this is not atheistunderground.com, it is democraticunderground.com, and if theists are unwelcome here, that seems very odd to me.

I have never once objected to any atheists expressing their point of view on this or any other messageboard. I would never do that, because: (1) I enjoy the free exchange of ideas among people who have different viewpoints; (2) I think it would be unfair to exclude any particular religious viewpoint from the discussion, including the atheist viewpoint; (3) I think that it would impoverish the conversation to exclude atheists. Frankly, it would be a lot less interesting and vibrant of a conversation if only theists were allowed; (4) excluding atheists would deprive me of the opportunity to share the Good News of the Gospel with the lost; and finally and perhaps most importantly, (5) who am I to advocate excluding anyone? I have some 40 posts and am a newbie. All of you atheists have 1000+ posts. I am not so arrogant as to come on a website and start saying that longtime posters who have been here for years are not welcome! That is ridiculous.

FWIW, I love atheists. Literally. As I understand it, my mother, father, sister, brother-in-law, niece and nephew are all atheists. And I love them.:pals:

Looking forward to more discussions with atheists, I am at your service.:patriot:

You love atheists?
You look forward to more discussions with us?

I wouldn't count on it if this is how you enter a conversation:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=26511&mesg_id=26801

Sounds like you only have a problem with uppity atheists, those that don't know "their place".

Get used to us.

We're not going anywhere, jimBOB.

Your martyrdom is assured. You have stood up to the evil Jim Bob and his brutal attempt to silence you.

You stand alone, persecuted for your beliefs, but bravely defying the evil Jim Bob and his powerful armies.:eyes:

I know you meant that comment tongue in cheek. But it shows how you do not understand our situation. We run the risk of losing our jobs if we wear or say anything representing our atheism at work. We are regularly assaulted for displaying our atheism on bumperstickers and such. We are reminded daily of how horrible we are by televised preachers and an onslought of billboards. We are physically assaulted for our beliefs. Our children are preyed upon by aggressive believers.

Of course its not you. But there is an army standing behind you. And they are beating the living daylights out of us. They are taking our rights away day after day and no where near enough are standing up and stopping them.

Yes they are not the same type of believer as you are. But that means little to us who are being beaten down by the more aggressive ones. Unless you are down here helping us you are giving tacit permission to them to keep stripping our rights away. To keep telling our children they are going to burn in hell. To keep considering us 2nd class citizens. Cripe George HW Bush doesn't even think we deserve to be citizens. Why he was not hounded by anyone from any religious institutions for having said that is beyond me.

I have to work with baptist bigots and I have no patience left over to fight them on this board.

Not all christians are blind to the inequality.

Most believers on DU have stood by our side in the past and will in the future.

I doubt we can make allies from people who can't even see what's happening in their own backyard.

And its all because people care. We care about the nature of our society. We care about our fellow humans. We care about our children's future.

Atheists are a minority in both this nation and this forum. Yes we have to live with it. But it doesn't change the fact that we are human and we grow to anger.

Just as you hope to deliver the good news to the lost, many of us hope to deliver the good news that you are free to those beholden to false beliefs. To not want to share good things would be inhumane.

Right now (and often as well) tensions are high between the sides. Many atheists are feeling like we don't even have a seat on the bus any longer. Our key issues are jetisonned without a blink by the majority of Dems. We are pariah. Most have given up. The few that remain and fight are angry. And yet all we are fighting for are the rights and rules we believe our founding fathers set down in the constitution. But because pleading to religion is so expedient for politicians we are given the short end of the stick.

So we are angry. Some try to make peace with the believers. We may reach a few but we are not making enough of a difference. The bulk of society still rejects us as evil. So other atheists decide to demand their say. They toss diplomacy to the side and speak the truth of what they believe.

We are tired of being run over in our society. We are weary of having to hide our beliefs. We even have trouble forming groups to console each other due to the hatred that exists in this society for us. And when the party that offers us the most hope of standing up for us abandons us for political expediency it causes us to become insensed.

We will not be silent.

Well put indeed.

He believes in you.

That which does not exist cannot believe in anything.

for more stupid reasons than I care to reveal, none of which had to do with my going to church, because I didn't. The nuns would have thrown me out, the Girl Scouts did!

My Japanese hubby and I were watching the annual viewing of The Ten Commandments years ago. It was his first time seeing the film - after wards he said "did that really happen"? I said, well - some people think so, I don't.

I no longer feel guilty, or odd about not believe in God.

Recently some Jehovah Wittinesses came to my door and wouldn't take no for an answer. He said "how do you explain all of this"? I said, "I don't know, I don't care, my concern is preserving it and so far God isn't doing such a good job of it, now is he" and I closed the door.

Read it. Think about it. Use it. They get the most delightfully confused look on their faces when they realise whats coming.

Simple answer: NO...

Complex answer: NO.....




Tikki

and sound childish to many ears, but I agree withthe thread that mentions that God speaks quietly. No, that does not mean there is something wrong not hearing. You don't mention if fundamentalists have turned you off, but please know that I believe fundamentalists are a strange cult offshoot. Fundamentalists try to fit pre-science ancient texts literaly into the 21st century. The Bible is many things, but it is not a science book. Also, they think they have a right to judge the rest of us. I believe in Jesus and his teachings, and that is forgiveness, brotherhood, and love. One of the things Jesus repeated many times is we don't have a right to judge others. We certainly don't have the right to kill others. Anyway, my faith has certainly ebbed and flowed over the years. In the end, I believe.

to your question is contained within the body of your post. Your brain is indeed wired fine, you are not perceiving things the same way others do. I don't want to get real long winded here, and I am certainly not going to knock you whatsoever, but as a young person you may have never taken LSD?? I did and it opened my head up to a whole new awareness of things, and proved to me the existence of the "god" in our universe. It ain't some guy in a white robe, but a wavelength of Divine knowledge that is available to anyone or anything that needs it. Check out stories of people who were exceptionally creative and made huge discoveries in fields like Science, Math, Physics or Art; most had some revelation come to them...usually in a dream, that solved the problem they were stuck on. I "perceive" that as a tapping into the universal, the Divine, the god-channel if you will. When you pray, that should be what you seek...knowledge of how to proceed, how to act, how to speak, how to do what is "right". Does what I "perceive" connect with mainstream religions? I don't think so, but it works just fine for me.

BTW, awesome post, I am nominating it.

:evilgrin: OK, sorry. Actually, if Hell is for nonbelievers, I'll be down there with my wheelbarrow, too.

I was raised to be religious, but over time realized it didn't make any sense to me and I was just going through the motions. One of the most refreshing and invigorating steps I've taken in my life was to cast off the pretense of religion.

I understand and appreciate that other people find comfort and guidance in religion, but atheism works for me. (Can I get an A-MEN?!)

Check out www.positiveatheism.org for reinforcement and encouragement.

Or in Amerikkka, the newest theocracy wanna-be on the block.

Just don't expect to have the same religious freedom as christians.
And don't demand your Constitutional rights.
Hell, just shut up, sit down and pretend you believe if you want to be accepted.

If you don't care about what others think, stand up and join the rest of us who refuse to be assimilated.

The E.A.C. Committee meets twice a month in the A&A group.
Your first rubber chicken is free.

Your pal trotsky says that atheism is not a religious viewpoint anymore than baldness is a hair color

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=25563&mesg_id=26269

So atheists should have no complaint about a supposed lack of religious freedom.:nopity:

IMHO, of course.:-)

And atheism is just as much a religion as theism is. To use the hair color metaphor, a theist is to religion as having hair is to hair color.

You can be atheist or theist and still be religious.

When you go to the polls, you don't HAVE to pick any of the candidates, do you? At least in this country, you also have the option of not voting at all.

Atheism doesn't need to be a "religion" to be included in religious freedom. Any set of choices that doesn't include "none of the above" isn't much of a choice, is it?

I agree. Or at least I agree that atheism is a religious viewpoint. That is why in the other thread, I stated my opinion that the government should not be promoting one religious viewpoint over another by forcing all public school science teachers to teach the atheist viewpoint, while prohibiting them from teaching intelligent design.

And what, may I ask, is the atheist viewpoint that is being taught in schools? If you answer Darwin, we have some lovely parting gifts for you.

On their own they are factors in various positions. But atheism does not always connect to a religious position while theism typically does. It is the rare belief in god that does not include religious connotations.

And evolution is not an atheist teaching. It is a scientific teaching. Aheists tend to like science but it doesn't mean that it is exclusively a subset of our beliefs. Science is quite independent of atheism.

To make a point yet again:

Teaching god is a religious position.

Teaching there is no god is an atheistic position.

Remaining neutral to god is the secular position.

The government must remain neutral to matters of religion.

Although the view you express is contrary to the tradition in the United States (where Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter are national holidays, our currency says "In God We Trust," we have innumerable government chaplains, a government Cathedral, sessions of Congress begin with a prayer, etc., etc.), it is a logically and philosophically defensible position, IMHO.

Now, applying your stated position to the issue at hand: Prohibiting the teaching of ID in public schools because it contradicts the atheist position is not remaining neutral to god. It is mandating the teaching that there is no god. Remaining neutral to whether there is or is not a god, it seems to me, would mean allowing teachers to offer both hypotheses -- both ID and the materialist viewpoint.

Atheism on its own is simply a lack of belief in god or gods. One can be a buddhist and be an atheist or any number of other belief systems. Atheism has no doctrine. Has no teachings. It is simply the declaration of an individual that they lack a belief in god or gods.

ID is not taught in science classes because science classes teach accepted forms of science. ID is simply not standard science.

Science itself is not connected to atheism in any direct way. Many atheists may be fans of science but it is not a manditory factor in being an atheist or a scientist. They are independent. As such science is neutral in regards to religion. It merely pursues what the scientific process can discern to be the closest thing to true. If various religions take issue with this it does not come from a desire to confound them or discredit them. It merely is science following the rules of its own nature and not any particular religious doctrine.

The government of the US has determined that it is probably a good idea to educate our children in the basics of science. Even an advanced curriculum in highschool science is just the tip of the iceberg of the depths of the field.

Evolution fits this criteria. It is the current accepted standard upon which the bulk of modern biology is based. To teach anything else at this point would serve only to confuse the children as to the nature of science. It is a disservice to teach something that is not science in a science class.

You mean "SCIENCE"?

Ohhhhhhh....

"inteligent design"...

I'm sorry, Jimbob, but the MINUTE you bring the SUPERNATURAL into the discussion, it CEASES to be a scientific discussion.

Science deals with things that can be measured, tested for, quantified, or proven. The Supernatural can NOT submit to any of that.

You should take your "intelligent design" bull-puckey down the hall to the Philosophy Department. (or the "Meeting Room")I'm sure you could find somebody there who'd be glad to discuss it.

if they practice celibacy.

Have you always been this ignorant of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the basic freedoms they provide and protect for ALL Americans?

Thanks for illustrating my point MUCH better than anecdotal evidence could have.

:applause:

It means I should be free from you shoving your religion in my face and free from you using the government's resources to support your religion, which is perfectly compatible with what I said on the other thread.

:evilgrin:

you would search pre-canonization papal philosophical discourse, and discussion from the age of Axis.

Anyone can point out the contradictions in modern mythos. In fact, it's difficult not to. Accepting them or not without question is unfortunately the limit the argument with modern faith. But if you were really curious, you would find there is a lot more to the subject than anthropomorphic promises of eternal life.

Epinoia!

You know I really don't care if you believe in God or not ..... uh at this point. Some of my best friends in life have been atheists. Want to call um?, I'll give you their numbers. And un-knowingly they have practiced in life some of Gods basic teachings. First of which would be 'love thy neighbor as thyself'. Which I am sure I would find quite a few more atheists on the DU practicing that, than I would ever hope to find on any Freeper sites out there. Why do you feel like a freak? Who cares? Why draw attention to yourself with this post? What's the point? Guilt? Out of place? Wanna be? I don't get it? Are you trying to learn from someone to teach you of GOD? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ? :rofl: Sorry ... had to throw that out there in the spirit of Sam Kennison or someone like that !!!!!! Too funny. Does this really concern you? Or are there other more important issues in this world we have to deal with? What do you want to believe? Do you think the 'End' is tomorrow? I really don't get it? What's your point? Accept yourself as you are and move on doing what you know to be 'righteous' ....... odds are you won't have an epiphany. Or was this post meant to mock God? I'm curious? Do what you want to do, oh what you put me through, for all the times I've cried, you give me pain, but you bring me pleasure .... get out of my life. Judas Priest .. I know had nothing to do with this post (kinda) but it was fun quoiting those lyrics... just came into my head :) Jesus said when he left that 'Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.' John 14:30 ..... that prince is you guessed it 'Satan' the devil :evilgrin: ..... and so is your struggle in what you see going on around you. :shrug: Peace and chill, or read your Bible. :)

Its not just the followers of gods that get the love thy neighbor thing. In all the world there are a couple of really good ideas that show up in varying philosophies and beliefs on a regular basis.

You obviously get this, but I just wanted to reinforce the point. It doesn't require a belief in god or a doctrine to get this. It just requires paying attention to one's humanity.

:D

"But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." I take this to mean along with quite a few other scriptures .... if you ain't had the luck in this life to hear these scriptures, yet followed your heart to know what is sewn in it, righteousness, love, faith, peace, and the weightier matters of life ...... your going to be okay. :) But you should still read your Bible ;) .... :bounce: Peace.

But there are others that side with attitudes reflected by these verses:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:18,36 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


:evilgrin:

Az .... is that Arizona, A to Z, Azuel, just messing with ya! ..... Why do you take it out of context? :shrug: Mark, one verse Earlier 16:15 "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel unto every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Okay ... what as a peace loving, give everything you have to your neighbor kinda guy Jesus ... do you Az have a problem with? 'love your neighbor as yourself'? Or 'turn the other cheek' or 'blessed are the poor' or 'no greater love than that someone to give their life for a friend'? Or .... 'love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you'? Or 'give him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee, turn not thou away'? Why are you on the DU if you do not follow these basic principals of 'life' unlike the freepers? :shrug: The verse says preach the 'gospel' IE: Jesus life and teachings, examples, what he did, SAID. Jesus implored : "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." John 10:37-38

And the other verse John 3 you cut short also. From John 3:19 to 21 it states ... "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." So just as the original poster to this thread stated something about anytime he/she thinks about God it is in relevance to this 'dark' world we live in. So what's the big deal? See my earlier post above this about the 'prince' or this world, Peace. :)

Others interpret these verses to mean faith is required. I don't interpret them as the word of god as I do not believe there is a god. I also said I was glad there were individuals such as yourself that look to the actions and intent of a person rather than some secret belief or handshake to get into the club.

Here are a few of my Bibles:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440539811/qid=1127193299/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-0360293-9565639?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570625190/002-0360293-9565639?v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140092501/qid=1127193489/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-0360293-9565639?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679776192/qid=1127193639/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-0360293-9565639?v=glance&s=books

Good selection of books there.

Wow, no wonder they seemed so cheap.

:hippie:

Are you on DU to mock people? Or are you here to interact with other opinions and what not? Just curious. Peace. :)
on edit: see post 86 .... believe what you want.

What you call "mocking", I call a free interchange of ideas.

Unless... the ideas are only supposed to flow one way.

...... :rofl:

You only seem to have one.

Law of Fives, an' all...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1559500409/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-0360293-9565639?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

FNorD!

And stay out of my library!

it's that midget sneaking in by hiding in the coffee urn.

You live in the modern world, a great revolution of science has propelled our species into wondrous experiences. Our kind has gone into space, we have discovered the power of the atom, cured disease and delved into every aspect of the natural world. Science is the tool with which we have explained the natural world.

What is religion? A failed attempt to explain the natural world and our existence. It's flaws are glaringly obvious in biblical passages which describe the nature of the universe and the origin of man.

Shake off this conservative notion that a super natural god exists and take comfort in your understanding of the world.

But what about death? Where were you 100 years ago, a thousand, a million, or when the universe was formed. Hell, if I know, but I suspect you were not in some inquisitional torture chamber suffering an eternity. And so it will be when you die, you go back into time. No hell, no heaven, no judgment, no afterlife, no reincarnation, no pain.

Your rationality is what makes you dismiss the irrational proposition that a god exists. Accept it, I did, and I understand what you are saying. It was hard to give up the notion that the supernatural is just another human myth. This is all we have, this life, this world, this existence.

Implications, yes. But that will be another post. Hope you don't feel alone.:evilgrin:

As Freud once said about himself. But seriously, I think different people respond to rational examination of such ideas as God more than others, and that may happen to be partly genetic and partly learning. Some people are more intuitive, responding to feelings more, while other are more thinking, introverted types.

Though my rational self keeps me from believing in a supreme being, it allows me along with my feeling self to experience a transcendency in nature, a cosmic feeling, though I consider myself an atheist. For example, what it feel like being out under the starlit skies on a clear night, observing the Milky Way or Northern Lights, the depth and harmony of nature. Nature is sort of my "God" though I prefer to not call it that, since it gets confused with other meanings.

People have different beliefs and that is OKAY.

Although I don't personally agree, I see much value in the humanist philosophy. It makes sense that if we only have a little time on earth, and there's no life afterwards, so we should make the most of our time here.
However, it could be that you're just thinking of god in too narrow terms. God, if one exists (or many exist) is not a god in the traditional Judeo-Christian old man in the sky, writing down and crossing out names in the book of life. I think most humans are smart enough to know that god(s) is much more than that.
Personally, I believe in one true god (or a spirit of nature), but expressed in many different aspects, each of which I consider to be different gods. But the main thing isn't to find out what's absolutely true. God, like people, doesn't exist in one true category, whether it's my form of paganism, the Jack Chick god, the Great Spirit, or whatever else. I've come to realize that your quest for god ends with whatever you're the most comfortable with. I also believe that everyone's God is slightly different.
Think about what I said, and I hope it helped. I'm always here if you want to talk.

i DO believe there are other 'beings' in the universe. i'm really looking forward to meeting one, altho' i doubt i will live long enough.

ellen fl

I guess the first organisms that oozed out of the primordial slime wondered why they were not in the muck like all the other organisms.

They did not understand why they were different. You have merely transcended the primitive, barbaric superstitions of an earlier time, while many of your fellow creatures remain in that muck. Whatever people do not understand, they attribute to "god". As our understanding of Nature grows, "god" gets smaller and smaller. Finally, our ability to infer and extrapolate lifts us out of theistic superstition and into atheism. Once you see through theism, you cannot go back.

Congratulations on your Evolution.

Nice.

I think I'll file that under Hallmark cards we'd like to see.