Atheist/Agnostics: Do you ever get socially pressured to say grace@dinner?

I have family members that I have told that I am not religious, and in a complete asshole move they start prayer at dinner in spite. They think they come off holier than thou, eventhough they do it against their Book of Matthew Chapter 6. Anyways for us agnostics (and atheists of course), I would like to suggest a grace that will make people stop trying to pressure you into prayer. Its called thanking Science. It would start of something like this:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

All graces at dinner thank some sort of god, diety, or some other mythological creature. I would like to take this moment to thank the people who truly brought this food to our table this evening; Science!

I thank science for providing guidelines for how many insects can come into our food.

I thank science for showing us how many calories, fat, carbs, sugar, and sodium are in our meal today in an attempt to lengthen and better our lives

I thank science for automobiles, because without them our food would not be transported to us here today. Oh and a special thank you to truckers!

I thank science for refrigeration. Without refrigeration, we would need to store food underground with salt to keep it fresh.

I thank science for soap! This includes the soap we use to wash our hands, the dishes, counter tops, tables, seats, our food, and our bodies.

I thank science for proper waste disposal so that we don't get E. Coli on our food.

I thank science for having the medical technology to make us feel better in case we do get sick from our food.

and you can go on and on!
What other science entries would you add?

I let my family know loud and clear what my beliefs are. They know them and they never pressure me to do anything I don't want to do.

because they know I wouldn't and if I did say something in lieu of it they wouldn't like what I said.

If someone asked anyway, I'd say, "no thank you."

if there is any silver lining to the rise of the fundy hysterics it is that decent ppl no longer wish to be assoc. w. religious display lest they be lumped in w. the haters

politicians are the retro guard

but regular ppl no longer want to be seen saying grace, it has become the mark of the nut when indulged in outside the home

Heck, I can't remember the last time I saw someone at a restaurant saying a prayer. Probably back in the mid-1990s when I lived in Colorado "center of the fundie universe" Springs.

As for in the home, Ma and Pa Razor aren't supoer-religious either -- Republican and conservative, maybe. But not religious. We just agree not to talk about politics whenever I come for a visit.

my son (he's a believer . I am not) briefly closes his eyes and silently gives thanks. It is almost imperceptible. No one but his mom probably even notices.

I know people have been doing that for ages. But why? Do you get some sort of connection or something?

I prefer to be dancing around a drum circle.

that's just fun! ;)

... or so I was told many moons ago ...

They pray, usually quite loudly, at any restaurant. It's always been that way, ever since I was a kid. Hell, they even do it when we're out on my birthday... gah.

Good grief. My grandparents thought it was their god-given mission to "witness" and attempt conversion on any convenient passer-by.
It was embarassing.

Once at a restaurant, after we ordered, my grandad asked the waiter if he was a chrisitan. The waiter looked at him with disdain and said, "Yes. Are YOU?"

Oh but it gets better!

At a hotel registration desk one time, my grandmother was practicing her assault skills on the lady behind the counter. The woman gracefully shared that she too was a believer. No problem, right? Wrong! Then granny jumps in with her Rapture mythology and tries to convince the woman to go that way too!!!!

I believe it is a sickness.

To freak out a few fundies when asked to say grace. You could always start out with...

"Oh great and merciful Allah! We are not worthy to receive this bounty you have brought to us through your divinity and place as our one true God!"

:evilgrin:

Once I worked for a man who grew up in the mideast and was somewhat trained to be a Muslim. But he was an atheist. He did not believe in Allah!

It's seemed like mental illness for me since I was about ... 13.

Read up on Richard Dawkins' concept of the 'meme', if you're not already familiar with it. Very interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

I agree. I look back on my childhood as having been raised by mentally ill people. I much prefer my current mild bipolarism to the group psychosis I grew up with.

We don't say grace. Well, I have a brother who's a bible-banger, but even he doesn't go there with our folks.

for millions of people, and I thank science that none of my family members died in childbirth, died within 36 hours of being born, died from minor infections, died from polio, or died from contaminated food, water, or air so that we could all be here.

can use the principles of evolution to selectively breed plants and animals to make them yummier. :D

But Bloom County had one a few years back for Thanksgiving dinner that was great.

Whenever they say grace at a dinner where I'm at, I just sit there.

"Dear God, we thank you for this meal and for this turkey which once was alive and breathing, brave and free, watching over its chicks with care. Anyway, it’s dead, and we are going to eat it now. Amen."

Even when I was a kid, when I was trying really hard to work at this religion thing, before I threw in the towel in college and admitted I'm an agnostic... I could never understand how blessing food would somehow make it better for me? Don't get me wrong, I'm always grateful for a meal, as I realize that others have none. But some religious types act as if food is poison if you don't instill it with magic blessing goodness.

Considering the flaming that has gone on around DU in debates the pledge of allegiance (and the utternace "UNDER GOD").

Personnally, I decide not to make an issue of it when at an aquitance's house but at family's house the problem hasnt come up.

Nor would I go if they did. :D

I usually just say, "No thank you," and leave it at that. If there's any kind of pressure about it, I'll say, "No thank you. I am an atheist." and leave it at that. If there's any response to that, I'll say, "Please, go ahead. I have no problem with grace before meals, I just don't wish to participate. Thank you anyway."

Should they ask you to say grace simply tell them its not your place to say it and start eating (as they have disrespected your beliefs there is no honous to hold off eating due to respecting their beliefs).

offend them.

not belonging to any organized religion at all. In the midwest. You have no idea what it's like, till you're an "other". If one doesn't "worship" something, bow down and pray to something, you might as well be a freak of nature, and every bit as welcome. Even when you preach the Golden Rule, peace and acceptance, and remembering all the while that no one really knows for sure what happens in the afterlife.

We live on the back of a turtle. Might as well :)

religion I was. I wasn't quite sure what she meant, so I said "Um....Scorpio?" I had no clue. I knew my sign, though :)

I think she thought I must be nuts, along with my whole family. I actually went to Catholic Church with their family a couple of times, "just for fun", but it was sooooo boring, it did nothing for me.

:shrug:

Awesome story

Strippers and Pizza.

:rofl:

but that would be pretty funny if all the sudden I broke off into prayer toward science one of the times someone asks.

Right now I'm having problems with people giving me religious-esque books and expecting me to read them. Ugh.

people who know how I feel about that.

They know exactly how I feel about it, yet still give me these books. I really have yet to come up with something to say in response other than it didn't hold my attention. This happens mostly with my family members (I guess just the ones who still look at me as a 'chance' to convert, because my parents and other close relatives respect my decisions), not my close friends, of course.

TV & the Internet are also sources of "ideas." Not to mention other people! Your duty is to transmit 100% of your opinions to her--& prevent her from being influenced by anyone else.

(Of course, if she's totally protected, she will have NO immunity once she leaves your house.)

She isn't a high schooler for FSM's sake, she's a preschooler, and I don't want her to learn that she's going to be damned to hell if she doesn't believe in god. That's my choice as a parent. I wouldn't tell someone else's young child that god was a made up thing. I have a right to expect the same consideration.

It's your job, not someone else's, to impart your beliefs, whether they are religious or not. To me, when people do what you're describing they are behaving passive-aggressively towards YOU, and using your kid to do it.

It's hard to find the right words sometimes, but you could hand a book back and say something like, "I'll teach my child what we believe." If they get snarky, you could always ask, "Would you like me teaching my beliefs to YOUR child (or grandchild)?"

Just because someone doesn't want their child reading religious books that are most likely slanted toward making it look good in the eyes of children, that doesn't mean they're sheltering them.

You're speaking about raising a kid with an open mind, and you want them to be subjected to writings that speak of someone's thoughts on the unknown as being 'absolute truth', at a young age? Goodness.

know one has a right to tell you how to raise thier kid. Specially since imo those books are way off. Those christian coloring books have Jesus looking alot like hulk hogan these days.

For the development of the process by which harmful microbes are removed from perishable foods.

thanks ;)

upon those things that I am thankful for in my life.

It's not that big of a deal to me.

The one I use most goes like this:

--------------
We thank the water, earth and air and all the helping powers they bear

We thank the people, kind and good who grow and cook our daily food

And now, at last, we thank the sun, the light and life of everyone
----------------

on edit: I am agnostic, and my family usually asks me to say grace because we are religiously diverse and my graces/blessings tend toward the generic.

thanks for sharing it with us :D

;)

"Give thanks to the mother earth
Give thanks to the father sun
Give thanks to the plants in the garden
Where the mother and the father are one."

Probably more of a pantheist than non-theist grace, I guess.

By the way, I have a spiritual practice in the Christian tradition and I'm put off by overt public displays of prayer outside the context of a worship service. Too often it seems more about calling attention to oneself or attempting to gloss a public event with supposed theistic sanction.

while you sit there in respectful silence. You will be the wiser for it!!!!

in our dinner everyone holds hands and raises them. Some will hit your arm as to say "Get with the program". Even if you are not saying anything. I don't dig it one bit.

by holding hands, then you have done your bit by 'getting with the program' without compromising your beliefs. It is all how YOU look at IT.

a seminarian though now am Agnostic (with an interest in Buddhism) so I dislike still saying Grace. What I did was to make my table prayers extra long and pompous and also add lengthy Trinitarian benedictions at the end (plus including a few Greek and Hebrew phrases) so relatives became wary of calling on me and now just let the grade school kids say a short blessing.

Why not throw in a baptism while you're at it?

that might have been a possibility.

"So mote it be"

Or there's always "ramen".

Is what I end with. I do pray, but don't make a public display with it. And my prayers are a long highway exit from the types the fundies are into.

I don't allow christians to pray for me in my prescence any more. What they do behind closed doors is their business, but I would prefer they leave me out of it. The last time I let a christian friend pray out loud for me, I thought she was going along just fine until she got to, "we're not worthy". That just bugged me off totally. No thanks. Do not want to participate.

Barak and Roll considers himself Daoist (I know, city white kid, nerherher, but he does), and he's always threatened to learn Arabic and bust out a compass and prayer rug for just such occasions. It's fun to poke the fundies! (Fortunately for the fam, but unfortunately for comedy's sake, his dad's an atheist, and his mom's vaguely ELCA Lutheran, so he hasn't had to demonstrate yet.)

Me, I'd go with Latin, as my family's all Methodist and Baptist.

A great idea!

I, too, know more about Christian theology than my believing relatives... maybe I should do that, too!!!! Would be really funny. I think I will quote all the violent, hideous parts of the bible in my 'grace'! muhahahaha

and said go SMOTE others. And I'll send a FLOOD and eternity will end in a BURNING LAKE OF FIRE!
But before that, we're gonna eat now, okay?

O8)

"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18)

and

"But if ... evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..." (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)

Maybe just some gravel and gravy for me. Or is that grovel?

What is wrong with respecting someone else's religion?

The religion of Athiesm or Agnostic is no more or less valid than other religions.

Instead of making a scene try this.

When others are praying, think about something you like instead. It can be whatever you want, comic books, food recipes, the sports scores whatever.

If you cannot stand to sit there while someone else observes their own religion, you should proably eat somewhere else.

Remember, they are proably are offended by your lack of prayer, as prayer offends you.

Tolerance is a two way street.

Our family holds each others hands and raises them above to say grace. VERRRRRRRRRY UNCOMFORTABLE.

Theres the silent one where everyone bows their hand. Surely anyone can tolerate a few seconds of silence, no matter their beliefs.

Theres the one where everyones silent, and one person says the grace. Maybe thats uncomfortable, but its still something one doesnt have to participate in (i.e. think of sports scores).

Now if your family or group is asking YOU TO LEAD it, then I definitely agree thats a problem ESPECIALLY if they know your belief system....But thats not what the OP indicated. I read "they start prayer", which indicated to me that he/she was a passive participant.

I agree with the first two statements.

Yes, and I did say "they start prayer", but when prayer starts, we all have to hold hands and raise them up, while someone says grace. That is inappropriate in my opinion.

like, not hungry right now, ya'll go ahead and start without me. Get hungry after the arm exercises.

There have been occassions where my family members hold hands (not up) and someone says grace out loud. I usually will hold their hands, they are my family after all, but I don't close my eyes and certainly don't "pray" in the same manner. Although I am grateful to the Universe for providing Life.

not that he expected them not to.


I think he has a valid point in not being asked to lead a prayer at a meal. Having the prayer anyway is one thing and I agree if it is not your home you should respect the wishes of those who want to pray. BUT being expected to participate is wrong.

and generally indulge the others. This situation is almost always a family or social gathering.

I was wondering is it rude in mixed company to clasp your hands under the table and silently say grace to yourself? I am a christian and my family is very vocal about saying grace in public. I feel this is wrong and embarassing because a) it is bad manners, and b) it calls others into your religion and you have no right to do it.
So i was thinking of suggesting this quiet alternative. What do you think?

for some parts of my family they all hold hands and raise them up. I feel like I worshipping something I don't believe in. Eeerie.

Too me it's like a cell phone going off. It's your personal buisness that shouldn't affect other people. It's kinda like those kids who wear crosses and earring outside thier clothes as jewlery. I wear mine inside of my shirt. Out of respect for other people around me who might feel things differently.

"Here's the bread, here's the meat
for god's sake, let's eat"

look out stomach, here it comes."

That was the last time I asked him to say grace.

;)

That's the one my dad uses.

It's a Thanksgiving ritual. Grandma says "shall we say grace?" and three or four of us say: "Grace!" She shakes her head and smiles, then dad will say the above, followed by my brother who says: rub-a-dub-dub, pass the grub, Yay God!

Ah, family :)

:)

Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Whomever eats the fastest gets the most.

Rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub. Yay god!

In my family we say grace at holidays like Thanksgiving but I can't imagine someone who is not a believer being asked to lead the prayer. Doing so negates the meaning they're supposed to be making in the first place. But then my family isn't quite as stupid as those you describe :-).

sorry you have to go through that.

Although whoever is saying "grace" can be religious, the intent (at least in my family) is family unity and good wishes.

So I have no problem letting someone express that in their own words, so long as I can say a graceful non-religious grace when it's my turn, minus the jeebus and god and amen stuff.

However, if I found I was never being volunteered for "grace", I would have to step up to the plate myself or else say something.

whenever the family wanted to do it, I would just stare down at my plate, quietly, waiting to eat. Usually while fidgeting.

who insists we all hold hands as he says an impromptu somewhat impressionist Grace. I don't have to say anything but it makes me a bit uncomfortable. I have memories of one of my brothers being irreverent and singing "Be Present at Our Table, Lord" to the tune of the old Gillette fight song!!

and its eerie.

:evilgrin:

;)

"Rub-a-dub dub,
Thanks for the grub.
Yayyy... God."

It makes so much sense - it's food after all!

bowing his head, crossing himself, etc...(we were on a six month travelling project and spent a lot of time together) After awhile he noticed that I didn't say grace and asked me why. I replied that I was an atheist, but out of respect for his beliefs that I did not eat or drink while he was going through his ritual. He said that I was wrong to be atheist. I then asked him if he said grace when he went out to dinner with his mistress (he was married to an unsuspecting wife) He replied that my question was unfair. Sure.

good for you mitchum. I hate hypocrites. :thumbsup:
(

WTF? Good job

:rofl:

That's awesome - you rock!

don't mind me not participating in grace, instead, sitting quietly with head bowed as they do their thing, kind of like what I do with the Pledge at my speaking club meetings.

I'm not an atheist (nor a Christian), but I don't personally feel comfortable with ritual, even in 'my' religion. My sorority's (Epsilon Sigma Alpha) invocation is about my limit most days.

But I do like many of the prayers offered here. Much like my Methodist-in-name-only mom who gives Thanksgiving blessings on how we are all happy and thankful to be able to be together having a nice meal - and leaves it at that.

I like to thank the universe for existing in such a way that made it possible for all the good stuff to be here :)

I don't mind, I just rattle off a quick appreciation for good food and good company, nothing more. No one's ever had a problem with it. But then, I've rarely sat down for a meal with religious asshole-types. Just the cool ones.

I don't go to family get-togethers anymore. Practically all of my family is rabid Republican so I just say "No thanks." Even with the progressive Dems in my wife's family, I say "No thanks." At age 52, I don't feel I have to spend time with people I would rather not spend time with.

tried it once and I thanked the cooks, the servers and the farmers.
They haven't tried it since and that was at least 15 years ago. My family and friends know better.

It goes something to the effect of:

Oh, Lord, we thank you for the food that we put in the ground, that we weeded and tended, that we worried over. We thank you for the labor that we put into this meal, and for the work that we have expended to keep this family together.

So even though you had absolutely nothing to do with creating, cooking or serving this meal, we'll thank you anyway.

(My great-grandfather, an old farmer and a long-time Methodist, loves this prayer. So does his atheist-agnostic great-granddaughter.)

There is a very simple straightforward agnostic grace that is graceful:

"For what we are about to receive may we be truly grateful."

~snips~
"In the life of our nation, we have seen that wondrous things are possible when we act with God's grace," Bush said in his weekly radio address. "From the rubble of destroyed homes we can see the beginnings of vibrant new neighborhoods. From the despair of lives torn asunder we can see the hope of rebirth. And from the depth of darkness we can see a bright dawn emerging over the Gulf Coast and the great city of New Orleans."
...
He often speaks easily of the strength that his faith provides him and talks humbly of his place before God. When big moments require big rhetoric, the famously plainspoken Bush seems the most comfortable with soaring language that is tinged with religious overtones.

So on Saturday, as in Friday's brief remarks at a national prayer service at the National Cathedral, Bush asked on behalf of the nation for God's healing and help.

"We ask God's comfort for the men and women who have suffered so much," he said. "We pray that the missing find safe return, and those who were lost find holy rest. And we sought the strength of the Almighty for the difficult work that lies ahead."
~snips~

It really makes me feel creepy that THIS GUY is PRAYING on our behalf.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4813939

Who died and made him head preacher? UGHA!!!!

watching other people worship is not a problem with me. I just spend a quiet moment while they do. However, this is in a private setting, and I am not being forced into it, it is my choice to not force a scene, I could leave the room anytime I want to if I like, unlike at schools where children are forced, no matter their beliefs.

for all of the bounty in your life, (food and family in particular on a holiday). I always have enjoyed it, a little bit of ritual in our manic lives.

I don't like saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes, and I have gotten funny looks and comments on that many times, but I don't feel like explaining my personal beliefs to every cookie-cutter Christian or other conformist type I bump into (and they come in all shapes and sizes).

as long as there is no god-forced thing attached, and as long as I don't have to hold hands. Yeccch.

I've been involved for many years with a camp for very bright science students from across the U.S. We've been saying grace before meals at camp since it began in 1963, but it's said by whichever camper volunteers for that meal. It's fascinating to hear the different sorts of thanks given over the years by mainstream Protestants, fundamentalist Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Bhuddists, Hindus, Wiccans, and atheist/agnostics (who usually just take the time to thank the kitchen staff who prepared the meal). No one is forced to participate, other than to stand silently. Seems to work!

thanks

you can't express gratitude for the food you've got?

The time and effort it took to get it in front of your face?

I am sorry, but this reeks of self absorbtion.

Here's a Buddhist Meal Prayer, I suggest you get over yourself and consider using it:

This meal is the labor of countless beings, let us remember their toil.

From the insects, the rain, the SUNLIGHT to the farmers and produce pickers to the cook.

:eyes:

Billions of people all over the world, including many Christians, manage to eat without prayers before it. The OP is under pressure from their family to conform to their religion. But you think they're self-absorbed, and need to get over themselves - and need to say prayers. Why are you so quick to comdemn them?

Prayer is a loaded thing for the non-religous. We resent being coerced into it. Plus, in most cases, it's not a reasonable Buddhist prayer being offered.

If they do, it is REALLY fast.

The worst, most uncomfortable feeling I got was at an office Christmas party. Actually it was at our regional office so people from all over came but we all work for the state. Everyone had to hold hands and stand in a circle and our boss led the blessing. Weird and probably illegal. It was on state property though technically we were all at lunch. I just wandered outside until it was over. For one thing I dislike holding hands with anyone, much less someone I work with. Truly bizarre.

I can't believe they did that.

I'm currently Catholic, though I don't recite prayer before each meal. I've sat through Jewish, Islamic, and other worship services. I've been to Taoist and Buddhist temples.

I'm happy with following the customs of whomever I am with. If they want to recite a prayer or meditation, I'm happy with that. Especially if I am in their own house. If in my own home, I would expect that people would not criticize how I go about serving dinner. (No prayer.) If someone requested prayer in my own household, I would allow them to lead it.

I'm generally a people pleaser, though. :)

... even though my parents were church-going Catholics who dragged us there every Sunday.

I think they were more interested in good table manners than prayers.

They ask me even though they know I'm an atheist.

If ever I can't weasle out of mentioning that it's because there is no god, I feel embarroused and they get upset.

But, you know, that's family for you. I wouldn't want to opt out of family.

ulitmatetly worked but also ultimatley was more work than it was worth.
I am older and wiser now.

They would occasionally take the office out to lunch, which was nice of them, but then, of course, there would be that embarrassing public grace. I and the other atheist/agnostics would NOT bow our heads (why should we?) and kind of smirk at each other, trying not to burst out laughing.

I'm cool.

But I'm not holding hands with anyone.

My ex said this for grace on Christmas Day, 2003

'Dear Lord, we paid for this food, so screw you!'

About this time, grandma, who was already eating and oblivious to prayer-time, looked up, startled, and said, 'Amen!'.

It was hilarious.

:rofl:

That's kind of an all purpose one anyone can use.

Funny to watch the reaction from kids and the baptists with corn cobs up their asses.

Those at the table join hands and the host squeezes the hand of the person sittin to his or her right. They in turn squeeze the hand of the person to their right. The squeeze rounds the table twice until it reaches the host the second time. No words; just a simple gesture of togetherness and sharing. I think it's a good way to start a meal.

awesome.

Instead of grace, in our family we say our 'thankfuls'. It starts with the youngest and works its way up the chain. Everybody gives a short list of things for which they are particularly thankful that day.

My aunt tries to get me to say grace and I always smooth it over with my thankfuls. Everybody at the table can decide for themselves WHO I am saying 'thanks' to; god or the universe in general.

Out of respect for what they believe.

However, once, at a family gathering, an uncle thanked God for President Bush. My brother and I looked at each other, started laughing, and had to leave the room to regain composure.

to bless our bountiful plates of noodles with your grace and kindness!"

them I will ask the devil to make their life miserable if they pray for me. It has freaked out a few (despite the fact they should be able to see the internal inconsistency of it!)

:rofl:

Bless this food to our use,
and make us ever mindful of the needs of others.

at the end, sometimes she says "Amen" and sometimes just "Dig in".

:evilgrin:

having food on the table.

Does'n't matter who you thank. The fact that you are humbled is a great thing.

... as the only people in our family who tend to say grace will allow
my brother-in-law (a lay preacher) to find some suitable words.
(My family & I will usually just sit quietly until they finish).
If it's a public setting (e.g., a restaurant) then they will usually
just sit and say a quiet prayer to themselves before starting, not
even expecting people to wait for them. (There again, they are
true Christians who actually live their lives according to their
beliefs rather than just 'keeping up appearances'.)

On the (rare) occasions when I have been asked to say grace, I use
something along the lines of the following:



I find that this expresses my gratitude for the efforts and good
fortune that are allowing me to enjoy the meal whilst keeping everyone
happy regardless of denomination, religion or absence thereof.

Did you compose it yourself? It can be secular or spiritual, depending on the interpretation. If you don't mind, I may keep a copy of it -- I'm Catholic, but sometimes break bread with non-Catholics, or non-religionists, and it sounds like something which could be said in their company.

I can't claim this as my 'creation' as it simply evolved :-) over time
as my experience of the world grew.

The only line that I consciously added was "for the fact that we can
feed ourselves with it". (This was after personal experiences that
reminded me that it's not just infants that need help feeding.)

I'd be honoured for you to share it!

Your relationship with your family sounds like a model for believers and non-believers. Would that everyone would adopt it -- sigh.

My Dad is a christian, but not a fanatic and he is a democrat. We used to say grace for thanksgiving and he once dragged my butt out to a dawn prayer session for Easter when I was 10 or 11 years old. But that was the extent of religion in my formative years. I finally told my Dad I was an atheist and he dropped what little pressure he put upon me.

However, my extended family on my Mon's side are mostly republican and very Christian. When my grandfather died, a staunch atheist till the day he died, they were planning a funeral with a preacher. I took a stand and said no way. My cousin told the preacher that he wanted a secular service, given my grandfathers wishes. The preacher said "I must acknowledge God's love." We dumped him. I respect my cousin for this, it was hard to hold in his religious tendencies out of respect for my grandfather.

I thank science for bring humankind out of the dark ages and the suffering that was caused by intolerance and ignorance.

There is still too much suffering caused by intolerance and ignorance.

And a very powerful minority is trying to bring back the dark ages, starting with public schools.

What was so wonderful about the dark ages? Religion was king, you could not have a contrary opinion, what the church said was law. A theocracy can be just as cruel as a dictatorship. Fundamentalist christians wish to make the U.S. a Christian nation. Deny science, destroy the plural society, restrict freedom of speech, the press, everyone follows the dictates of the christian church. Just does not sound appealing.

:evilgrin:

of men and women during the dark ages?

What did they usually die from?

What was the mortality rate of children?

Yeah, I sure miss the good old days, before science worshipers took over.