Would you change, or at least pretend to change, your beliefs for money?

Maria Walters (aka Masala Skeptic) lays the smackdown on the latest angry atheist YouTuber in her blog post today:



I totally agree with Maria's reaction to Mike's video. There's a lot of positive things to be said for an irreligous world view but Mike just descends into cheap, stupid and cruel stunts that won't inform anyone and just help cement the "angry atheist" stereotype in the public's mind.

But it did lead me to wonder... If someone gave me money predicated on the condition that I publicly endorse religion, would I do it? And you know, after thinking about it for a bit, I can totally be bought. For the right price, of course.

$20 is an insult and wouldn't really help me, but if someone offered me $50,000, I would proudly proclaim my love for Jesus in a heartbeat. $1,000,000 and I would not only renounce atheism, but I'd happily attend church (of my own choosing) every single Sunday for the rest of my life. Hell, I'd even join the choir. Those prices aren't fixed in stone either; they're highly negotiable.

Oh, the money wouldn't do anything to change my actual beliefs (or lack thereof). But it would change my life to the point where I'd be grateful enough to at least pay passing respect to religion. There's enough good in most generic American Christian churches, Jewish synagogues or Islamic mosques that I wouldn't be bothered in the least by it. Plus, as an insider, I could work for reform. On the other hand, no amount of money in the world could get me to endorse Scientology or other dangerous cults.

So at the risk of alienating many of my atheist friends, I'm happy to say I have my price. At least under certain conditions.

How about you?

therefore there is nothing to feel guilty "sinning against" by denying it, any more than Kevin Spacey is or should be confused with a real murderer because he pretends to be one for money on a fairly routine basis.

There are no atheist martyrs for a reason - no damn point. Threaten me or pay me enough and I'll jabber about Jesus with the best of 'em. Won't actually believe the nonsense of course, but then it's pretty obvious that many millions of nominal believers already do this with no more payment than slightly improved social acceptability. Why should I refuse at a higher price?

As the ONLY good line I've heard Steven Seagal deliver states..."For a hundred million dollars? I'd fuck ANYTHING once."

It's true, too. For that price I'm pretty sure you could turn ANYONE into a prostitute for one night.

So hell yeah I'd take the cash and pretend. Praise Jesus!

to what extent would I have to express my unbelief? for how long? what would be given in return?

Here is an example of something that WOULD NOT work: I must declare I do not believe in the existence of God and Jesus Christ, I could not read or possess a Bible, & I could never attend any worship service ever again. I dont care how much money was offered, I would not do it. Period.

Here is an example of what MIGHT work: I was offered an exorbitant amount of money to say, once, 'there is no God.' That I could justify. Let it be known that goes counter to Jesus saying "Whoever disowns me before man, I will disown before my Father." However if all the money went to charity, I could justify it. Some might say it smacks of hypocrisy to say this, but we are speaking of hypotheticals. If I disobeyed my parents command (a breach of the commandments) to lie for them (another breach) what should I do? There are certain situations I think that justify breaking God's law. I expect to be held accountable for these moments at judgement, but if my conscience is clear, I believe I can do these things with confidence. Such is it with your hypothetical scenario.

The commandment says to honor your father and mother, which is not always the same as to obey them.

I don't think it is at all truly respecting or honoring of a person to unconditionally do whatever that person says to do, even something wrong or harmful, whether that person is one's parent or parents or anybody else.

That being said, however, I want to say that I think that this particular commandment, the commandment to "honor your father and mother", is an example of something in the Bible (and which has unfortunately come to lie in the center of Judeo-Christian and Western traditional morality) which is really wrong.

The Bible was written by fallible human beings, and I consider it to exhibit human fallibility and human prejudice just like anything else that has ever been written. And I think the commandment to "honor" your father and mother", which in the biblical text is unconditional, and does not make any exceptions if one's parents are abusive or otherwise not deserving of honor, is wrong.

In particular I think it is very wrong to say to anybody who has or has had an abusive parent or parents that such a person has any duty or obligation to honor such parents.

If anything there should be a commandment to parents which says for them to treat their children with dignity and respect, so that they (the children) might come to treat themselves and others with dignity and respect.

I find it interesting to note that the recently deceased Swiss writer and psychotherapist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_%28psychologist%29">Alice Miller, particularly in her book http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=11">The Body Never Lies, does what I consider to be a very good job in refuting the promise that comes with the commandment ("that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you"), and the implied threat that one's days will not be long if one does not honor one's parents. The first part of her book deals with a number of well known writers and artists who were very perceptive of the ills and evils of the society in which they lived, but who never considered challenging or breaking the commandment to always "honor your father and mother", and never assigned any blame or culpability to their parents, no matter how cruel or abusive they might have been. The writers and artists whom she deals with all died at a relatively young age, usually due to either sickness or suicide.

My own father was a very difficult person, and my being a Christian turned out to be not at all of help to me in enabling me to deal with him those times when he was difficult or obnoxious the way I wish I had been able to while he was alive. This was the biggest single factor which led me to become disenchanted with Christianity in general (as distinct from fundamentalist Christianity in particular, which I had problems with even while I was still a Christian), and to eventually part company with the faith.

And I don't think it was simply unfortunate that Christianity was not helpful. There is the commandment to unconditionally "honor your father and mother", and there is a passage in Hebrews 12 which says to gladly accept the chastening ot the Lord, like that of a "good" father -- like my father.

when confronted with such a situation. This does more to stereotype atheists than anything else.

Atheists don't believe they'll be putting their immortal souls in jeopardy, or otherwise fear divine retribution. That's just one of the reasons why I found YouTuber Mike's approach to be so idiotic and offensive. To ask a poor family to choose between eating (or some other basic necessity) and eternal damnation is cruel.

I don't believe in gods, or the hereafter, so for me it comes down to a matter of integrity but those people did believe. I might think they're wrong about their beliefs but that doesn't matter because they did believe they'll suffer irreparable harm.

There's also the issue of simple dignity and self-determination. No person, believer or non, should be forced have to be forced to choose between their deepest convictions and staying alive. Of course, some Christian charities such as the Salvation Army do that every day but as citizens of the United States we all do it to people in other countries.

Does my question stereotype atheists? I don't think so. It's about asking everybody how much they value their beliefs (or disbeliefs). How much money, and under what circumstances, would it take for you to compromise your beliefs? There's no right, or wrong, answer. It's all about asking you to think about how you get to that answer.

Did humblebum bother to note that the guy in the video DID, in fact, give the people the $20 anyway? Uh, no, because THAT doesn't fit the narrative...

...why they wouldn't accept the money. It would be completely irrational - as irrational as believing in God. If you lie, big deal. It's acting - actors get paid a lot of money to do it all the time, and this wouldn't be any different. You'd be paid for your time, just like any other job... and all you have to do is show up, mouth some platitudes, and go home.

Naturally, this isn't going to make an atheist "believe" in God - money can't change belief.

It also isn't the same as trying to pay a Christian to profess non-belief. If the Christian really believes in God, professing non-belief in exchange for money has spiritual and religious implications. An atheist who lies and professes belief - in our culture, there is only upside to that (with or without payment).

Would I vote for George Bush (either of them)? Not for all the money in the world. However, I've voluntarily voted for Republicans before. The prime example being Sherwood Boehlert who did a lot for my district, was strong on science and technology, and genuinely worked hard for his constituents.

No amount of money in the world can actually make me believe, but lip service? Sure. Write a check every Sunday and I'll show up to Church well dressed with a smile on my face. People do worse jobs. Though, if I was asked to attend a fundamentalist church or some radical wingnut place it's going to cost WAY more. It also costs more if I have to make a fool of myself - say if you want me to talk in tongues.

My prices:

$50k will buy you a "reformed" atheist who has seen the light to attend church each Sunday and mouth lip service to your deity for one year. The church I attend is up to me.

An additional $25k if you want me to attend a church where I have to make a fool of myself, or wish for me to make a fool of myself, for example speaking in tongues or some such.

An additional $50k if you want me to attend a church that is fundamentally opposed to my political beliefs - specifically if the church is anti-gay.

I won't pretend that Jesus made me straight - I can't be bought on that point. Though for an additional $100k I promise not to tell anyone in the congregation that I'm gay, and will even fake having a wife - provided that you pay for her and that I get to pick her out. Don't you dare try and pair me up with a June Cleaver or some Stepford woman - that's a no-go. Additionally, she'd have to be in on everything that's going down. Also, the farce will only take place on Sunday's in church, once we leave the parking lot, the farce ends... but from what I've seen that's pretty much par for the course for a lot of Christian's anyway.

Soooo! For the grand total of $225,000 you can have your very own submissive, talking-in-tongues, reformed atheist in your church every Sunday for one year. Personal checks and credit cards not accepted, must be in cash only. I will also accept monthly or weekly payment plans, though all payments must be made in advance.

:silly:

If I just had to "play the part" of a believer under a certain number of limited public circumstances, chances are I'd give into the temptation for some quick easy cash if the price was right. I wouldn't come cheap. The price would depend a great deal on just how much pretending to be a believer I had to do and under what circumstances.

If I was obligated to act the part of the believer in every way for the rest of my life, however, not even being able to post anonymously online as an atheist, not be able to speak in private as an atheist... I don't know if I could be bought off on those terms. That would require giving up a whole lot of who I am full time, and there might not be enough money to make that worthwhile.

The whole question reminds me a lot of this famous exchange:

nice one.

I found it telling that he ended up giving the homeless family the $20 in the end, even without the getting rid of "God"...

Doesn't seem like too big of an asshole to me.

I would only be "faking it" much like many believers do anyway...

I'd do it for almost any amount but I do it for free all the time to survive....I live in southern Alabama.

being an atheist in the heart of Dixie cant be easy. I hope it doesnt get you down too much :hug:

On a slightly off topic, how do you like Alabama? Ive always been drawn to the deep south but never had a chance to go. Are you from the area originally?

If you opened up a nice briefcase full of $100 bills I'd be willing to do quite a bit to get it.

Values are nice but I have bills to pay. And playing bill juggling can get so tedious.

However, I know that I would probably be better off financially if I was a little less moral.

But I didn't.

Not that I am always moral. But I could be a lot worse and a lot richer.

I am sure I have my price. My hope is that it's pretty high.

As it is, I can't let their father become a huckster.

practicing that has the consequences.