Never Trust A Christian (Actual title of the article)

XP from GD


Bastrop High School promised to obey the law against school-led prayer at official events, although they were also petty and mean about it, and have been making life hellish for the young man who complained. Now here's the surprise (not): in an official function called Senior Night, they announced a moment of silence…and then said a Christian prayer anyway, to the cheers of the Christian majority. Never mind that it was illegal, never mind that they broke their agreement; religious sanctimony trumps all.

And we have video.

I suspect that at the official graduation ceremony tomorrow, they'll also manage to get someone up there to lead the school in sectarian proselytization and social pressure, and they won't even care that it's discriminatory.

I do hope they get sued.

--snip--

I suppose I should start including general explanations for the terminally obtuse.

There is no proscription against individual prayer. If 99.9% of the students had taken advantage of the moment of silence to bow their heads and beg Jesus to help them get laid after the kegger that night, NO PROBLEM.

There is a proscription against compelling EVERYONE to participate in sectarian prayer. When someone stands up and announces that we're all going to ask Jesus Christ for a blessing, PROBLEM.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/05/never_trust_a_christian.php

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As one of the commenters to this article stated,

"Don't worry PZ, any minute now there will be an overwhelming tide of condemnation of these people from the true Christians who are nice people who wouldn't stand for this sort of bullying behavior.

Any minute now..."

:eyes:

Public humiliation of someone who believes differently.

Death threats to the admitted non-believer.

A headstrong attempt to continue publicly-sanctioned religious persecution backed by cheers and support from the vast majority.

Who knew the poor kid lived in Iran?

it's despiccable behavior, and should be booed by true Christians, of which I count myself as one. We are not meant to push our faith on anyone, but lead by example and convince non-believers thru our acts. This act only serves to alienate everyone who isn't in the 'in-crowd', so shame on them!

As I've posted before, there are "Christians," but when you add the word "true" you make the phrase meaningless.

I am a Christian (as in I try to follow what I believe Jesus taught) but reminding the school that it is unconstitutional to have pray at a public school graduation is not stealing free speech. Would the Christians be okay with a Muslim prayer, a Native American chant, or any other religions dogma in place of the "Christian prayer" they would have had? I very much doubt it.

I only know what belief system works for me. It is my truth and everyone has a right to their own. It can be shared with others if they wish, but never forced upon anyone else.

anyone in the audience to listen to or join in the payer offered by the student? When did the student become an officer of the state? What was her hire date and what is her salary? Does the use of public forum by a private individual explicitly establish a state religion? Was there a state requirement forcing the attendance of the public at large to attend this ceremony?

Officials employed by the state issued instructions to the graduating students that they must attend, as they do at every public school around the US. Officials employed by the state also instructed those students on where they would sit, how they would dress, and how they would behave, all the while making sure that they knew that deviation would result in a punishment of not being allowed to "walk".

That night, an official of the school, employed by the state, called the audience to order and asked them to find their seats and stay there. That official then handed over the microphone and podium to the officially designated Master of Ceremonies. In this role, the student represents the school, and I would know because I was one when I graduated from a public school.

So the state required the attendance of the students, and required that their behavior meet specific guidelines, and gave temporary standing to the student serving as MC, who then proceeded to violate established law while acting as a representative of the school.

If she had been wise enough to simply allow one of her fellow students in the audience to start the prayer and hope for a groundswell, then no one would be able to complain in a legal sense. It would still be a disgusting display of a majority not giving a fuck about a minority, but the school itself would be immune. Of course, that's not what happened. The MC asked the audience to join her in a Christian prayer, and that's clearly not allowed under established law. Prayers to any god may be offered at any public school event, but they may not be led from a podium by anyone officially recognized by the public school.

"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - That *//?()!!!*?!!! bill of rights thingy always gets in the way.

Fail.

the prayer was obviously spontaneous. Clearly a free speech issue and a freedom of religion issue regardless of your opinion.

that the area is so famous for.

And of course the right to lynch is guaranteed in the constitution. (SARCASM)

She announces that everyone should stand for the moment of silence, and then proceeds to say, in summary, that she won't be observing that silence even though she was told to. The graduating student chosen by the school to represent them as MC and open the "senior night" led a Christian prayer, not to mention a mini-sermon.

No, this is not a free exercise issue. She clearly broke the rules, and gleefully so. Had she simply been silent, and allowed a prayer to be started by someone in the audience, you might have a case, but she ASKED that people join her, so while standing behind that podium and representing her school she led that prayer.

Voluntary prayer is NOT prohibited in public places and attempts to silence same are illegal.

Give me a time stamp. I don't see a moment of silence. I see a prayer, led by the MC, who was chosen by the school. Voluntary prayer is not prohibited, but school-led prayer most certainly is. Your only chance for a free exercise case went out the window when the MC asked people to join her.

And BTW: No one here is attempting to silence the practice of faith. We're trying to keep people like you from silencing those you disagree with.

If the whole group got up and screamed "We're going to Disneyland!"- it would have been no difference. They would have been well within there rights to do so, regardless of what you or I think about it.

And it was observed, even though it was very brief.

It came after the prayer and "amen". The student MC said something like, "And now for a moment of silence. ... Thank you."

and we're not talking about a "they", we're talking about the actions of one person acting in an official capacity for the school.

I thought she was very diplomatic in the process. Not everyone took part in the prayer and there was no captive audience. It is no one's right to be permanently sheltered from words that may offend.

Shd did not call for a moment of silence "as she had been instructed", because her instructions specfically forbade her from leading the prayer. Listen to her speech in the video. She says that she was originally told she would lead a prayer, and then she was told that she would lead a moment of silence instead. You have no leg to stand on, here. She clearly disobeyed her instructions and the law, overstepped wildly the protections offered in the free exercise clause, and engaged in religious persecution from the podium of her public school, turning it into a bully pulpit.

Your thoughts on her diplomacy are irrelevant. And if you think this was diplomatic I can only be damn glad that you are not involved in foreign policy.

She wasn't a school official. She was told by the school to just have a moment of silence.

She disobeyed the real intent, which was to not have a prayer. Instead she says she's still going to thank God.

The question is whether as the student appointed to be MC and do specific things everything she did is interpreted as being on behalf of the school. I can see the dispute with an employee: You're hired to do X, you do Y as well, and you're in trouble. Depending on your authority, it may be taken as a function of your job. But if you're an employee and say, "I'm told to do this here, but instead I'm going to do something else," are you still acting in an official capacity?

Civil disobedience. So hard to characterize it.

The proper thing for the school to do would be to announce a punishment for the student. Then, when there's an outcry over the punishment, they can bend to public pressure. It's the kind of problem that arises in a democracy, balancing the rights of individuals in the minority with the rights of the majority, esp. when the "rights" are fairly inconsequential. The minority student feels bad, feels like he's not being respected; versus having the majority feel disrespected.

Fuck. That. Shit.

BTW: Characterizing open religious persecution carried out by the majority against the minority as "civil disobedience" is reprehensible. Rosa Parks engaged in civil disobedience. Gandhi engaged in civil disobedience. These motherfuckers persecuted a minority in full disregard for the law.

resulting comments have been.

would support religious persecution of a minority. After all, isn't religious persecution what you constantly fear and spout about? Haven't you spent post after post after post after post after post after post railing against what you see as religious persecution?

The phrase "it's all right when we do it" has never had a more appropriate example.

There was no captive audience. She invited only those who shared her faith to bow their heads and pray. There was NO compulsion whatsoever nor any reference to any other group or person that could possibly be construed as persecution. And she most certainly called for a moment of silence as instructed. Persecution? I think not and I applaud her actions entirely.

Really?

So you believe there's no such thing as social pressure?

You believe that her actions, by referring specifically to her instructions and disregarding them, were not a clear challenge to anyone who believed the prayer inappropriate?

You believe there was no captive audience when audience members were instructed by school officials to remain at their seats? You believe there was no captive audience when the graduates most certainly, as all graduates do, received specific instructions about their placement and their behavior?

You believe the invitation was simply that, and not a call for audience support of an illegal action?

Your belief is irrelevant. The audience was captive. That they weren't clapped in irons and forced to watch clockwork-orange style doesn't change the fact that punishment and recriminations would have been forthcoming for anyone who had left, or who had disrupted that prayer by loudly praying to Allah. The audience was captive, and compulsion clear from the Master of Ceremonies, who received her introduction, her station, and her authority to conduct the ceremonies directly from the school official on stage before her.

She did not follow her instructions, which makes you a two-time liar at the very least, and her actions were deplorable, which makes your applause the same. If you had any standing left to lecture others on the forum about the possibility and history of religious persecution, you would have lost it in this thread by showing us all that "it's all right when we do it."

She did that. And there was NOTHING resembling compulsion. You have NO case. You cannot control free speech and free expression.

and I'm not trying to limit anyone's free speech or expression, so you can drop the fucking straw man. It is not free speech or free expression to use the station of MC during a ceremony where people have been expressly instructed not to leave or disrupt to lead a prayer in a public school.

Period.

Your right to free speech doesn't entitle you to proselytize to me at a taxpayer funded function where my attendance and my silence are mandated.

And if you think this prayer was a good thing, imagine what would have happened, and your reaction, had she offered a Satanic prayer or a prayer to Allah in perfect Arabic.

Edit: It's still a lie to say she followed her instructions, and anyone who watches the video will see that she herself admits to not following her instructions. You really have a problem with being flat wrong, don't you?

because they are protected BY the Constitution.

You have provided no answers to any of the points raised, least of all the fact that you continue to provide evidence for the mantra "it's OK when we do it."

Typical darkstar. LOL!

I gave you a torrent of points, you simply ignored every one of them and offered the discussion board equivalent of a second grader sticking his tongue out and saying "nyah!"

If you have a single thing that is worthy to post, now is the time. Otherwise, just do us all a favor and FOAD.

ESPECIALLY in this case.

Its typical christian bullshit. I'm sure their god is very, very proud.

Regarding public prayer at a school football game.
Not allowed.

My guess is that her words were framed perfectly to meet the limitations of the decision.

but I guess when it comes to atheists, we can get away with saying shit like rights are "fairly inconsequential" and even putting the word rights in quotes.

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Where they are...:shrug: