Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous?

Was Alcoholics Anonymous meant to be a mosaic or a melting pot? Does its culture embrace one and all who have a desire to stop drinking, or is the intention to blend everyone into a single AA homogeneity? These were the questions raised by a recent furor in Toronto, where two AA meetings were banished from the city’s official directory for catering to atheist and agnostic members with an adapted version of the 12 Steps. Not surprisingly, given AA's reach, the controversy has spread around the world.

"Just tell me what to do ’cause I hurt so bad," was David R.’s attitude when he first joined AA. “I really wanted to stop drinking and I was truly ready to ‘go to any length’—and I did.” The trouble was that God “as we understood Him” meant, in David’s case, no God at all. “Because I am a people-pleaser, I faked it with the theistic elements, half-knowing I was faking," he says. "I was afraid that I would drink if I didn't. I am grateful to be sober. I couldn't have done it without AA: the meetings, the support of some understanding people and activities not related to drinking.”

You sense a “but” coming next. Says David: “There are many concepts that didn't seem right, helpful or logical to me, right from the beginning. They didn't fit my experience of how I got sober and was staying sober.” Having worked through, and taken others through, the 12 Steps, he heard about an agnostic group—one of Toronto’s first “Freethinker” meetings, called Beyond Belief—and checked it out.

Because I had been so compliant in traditional AA meetings,” he says, “I found it difficult to hear people complain about ‘the God thing’ and how they had felt excluded at other meetings. I was uncomfortable when people questioned AA dogma, or were firmly atheist. I went through a period of not feeling at home in either Beyond Belief or traditional meetings; I called myself ‘agnostic’ in the strict sense of ‘not knowing and not possible to know.’”

http://www.alternet.org/story/151294/is_there_a_place_for_atheists_in_alcoholics_anonymous?akid=7112.260941.CUnxAf&rd=1&t=5

Jus' askin' :shrug:

http://www.cfiwest.org/sos/index.htm

Thirteen Maxims of Secular Sobriety
http://www.sostulsa.org/html_sos_tulsa/info_maxims.htm

Who needed AA, and should have gone and been welcomed but who could just not "fake it" and adopt the accepting god step.

Anyone who claims that the religious part is what stopped them is using it as an excuse. I am diehard atheist, I have 26 years in AA, the program uses a "higher power" you can choose anything as a higher power.Not that difficult when you are already giving alcohol a "higher power" over your life.

(Just my opinion, YMMV)

Except for the fact that they instead opted to quit on their own. And in some cases it worked out fine. But I'm a firm believer in the AA program and in the idea of a community of recovery. So I hate to seem them not have what I think is a key component in the process not there because of this.

The steps specifically mention god several times. There are a lot of higher powers in the world, the IRS for example, but no one claims that they can "restore a person to sanity."

If all you do is read the book and take that as all there is to the program you are missing a lot, any and all AA meetings I have ever attended , and that is a lot since I first started in 1983,have included many many discussions regarding this subject, they all, every one of them,concluded that it is god "as you understand him", not necessarily the biblical god as we have been taught. Anyone who wants to get sober/clean bad enough will find a way around this small problem. Everyone who sits around those tables for any length of time will come away with a different understanding of this concept, most make some sort of adaptation to fit their personal needs. I personally cannot believe in any sort of supreme being no matter what anyone chooses to call it/him/her.... The main point to any of the programs is to get sober/clean, we all went to extremes in order to indulge our habits, so some small concession to a spiritual being/object is really quite minor considering the consequences of not doing so.
Anyone who can get clean/sober on their own has my deepest respect, I could never do it without AA, in my own case I chose AA itself as my higher power.

...it really seems to me that they are talking about god in the theistic sense of the word. That's probably why they call it "god." They opened and closed meetings with prayer and talked about god through the whole thing. It's not a small problem. Divine intervention is one of the 12 steps. "3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." Well, a god that you can turn your life over to is a theistic, interventionist, supernatural god even if it is not specifically the Christian god. The AA group may be very helpful, but it is not god. That's not what that word means.

I congratulate you for maintaining a freedom from alcohol addiction. I don't doubt that the support you got from the people at those meetings helped a lot. I just don't believe god had anything to do with it. I think you accomplished that, with help from the group, but primarily by yourself. Frankly, I used to suspect that a kind of placebo effect made AA work for anyone who believed that a divine power was in control of his or her life. I say I used to believe it because I have since learned of its miserable success rate, meaning it really doesn't work.

The steps you will most likely note that the statement is printed with the stress on the last part

"God as we understood him"

I do not make any claim at any time that I think god helped me in any way, the group did though and they were my higher power not my god. I did not believe in god at that time nor do I at this time. I personally have a problem with adults who have invisible friends... I used the group as a substitute in order to sidestep the question and to keep religious people from taking it any farther, I did not then nor do I now want to listen to anyone preach about any religion whatsoever...if they need that as a life crutch that is their prerogative... more power to them if it helps them get through the day/week or life..

As for AA and any success/failure I believe comes from the individuals ability/inability to make it work.. (my opinion) I have seen many many come and go over the years, I have seen some colossal failures and some great successes..I have seen many die because they could not make it work, I have seen what I thought were impossible odds come through the doors and sit at the tables and walk away winners, like many endeavors the end results are mainly dependent on how willing the participants are.

...They even seemed to have that omnipresence thing going on.

Whatever works....

It seems to me that the groups' attitudes vary wildly.

And whether or not the meeting is an AA "fundamentalist" meeting or one that is more accepting and laid back.

and has attended AA meetings for years. They have helped her immensely. I once asked her about the "the God thing". She said "some people need God and some don't".

people go to AA, in my humble experience is to stop drinking. That is why I went, yes I had a problem with the word GOD, but my desire to stop drinking was greater than the word. In the end it is up to the individual and their desire to stop. Sober 25 years and very happy.

that's a real accomplishment! :applause:

When I want to be in a group, I respect their beliefs and I neither hide nor flaunt my beliefs. If my atheism is relevant I let the necessary people know up front and may not be able to fully participate (e.g. some religious ceremonies)
I've been a scout leader, to a variety of churches, religious ceremonies, and church volunteer events.

If you were up front about your non-belief, someone was breaking the rules for you.

The BSA hates gays and atheists, the loving Christian organization that they are.

In fact, one of the points of the law is "reverent." They have, in the past, denied Eagle Scout status to scouts during boards of review for not adhering to that part of the Law.

The whole thing is based on Evangelical Christianity and its concept of redemption. "But it's God as you understand him!" Well, I understand that god doesn't exist so how does that work?

I should also point out that there is no clinical evidence that AA actually works. What little is know suggests a frankly abysmal success rate. It was developed in the 1930s and has never been clinically tested. It also has not been modified since then. Would you use the same treatment they used in the '30s for any other disease? I don't doubt the value of group therapy, but the "program" itself is not only inherently religious (what other diseases are treated by turning ones life over to god?) but probably counterproductive. The habitual self-abasement (similar to claiming that one is a miserable sinner) and the insistence that one has no control and will never have control over the problem works against treatment. Obviously if there is no god to turn your life over to, then you must be turning it over to yourself.

Whether it be Christianity or A.A. They are both abusive to people by telling them they are worthless and powerless without god, in my opinion.

Also in the opinion of John Bradshaw, Ph.D. who has written Healing the Shame that Binds You, which deals with our society of people addicted to various things.

I'm aware of Bradshaw, but I do not believe I have read that book.

Healing the Shame that Binds You:
http://www.johnbradshaw.com/Healingtheshameprint.aspx

Bradshaw on The Family:
http://www.johnbradshaw.com/bradshawonthefamilybook-1.aspx

Homecoming:Reclaiming and Championing your Inner Child:
http://www.johnbradshaw.com/homecomingprint.aspx

https://rational.org/index.php?id=1

It's not 12-step.

I think there are nonreligious 12 step type programs.

I was left with the impression that it seemed like a step in the right direction, but that it also had not been clinically tested and that there was no reason to suppose it would be any more successful than AA.

when reading the OP.

was g.o.d., his gang of drunks.

I liked that.

One of his songs.

We learned that the local Unitarian Universalist "church" offered some secular groups on addiction.

We had at least a couple jail inmates in for drunk driving writing in complaining about their judge ordering AA with its "Higher Power" baggage, so we referred them to UU instead, which courts have been forced to recognize.