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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:22 PM
Original message
Who else is tired of the words, "This all part of God's plan" and
Edited on Wed Jun-15-11 02:29 PM by ej510
"We are living in the last days."? Yeah if people continue to destroy the planet's atmosphere. I think those words are a cop out to allow a small group of people to continue to destroy the planet and to make people feel better about the end game.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm more tired of God told me
to run for election.
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. I write off anyone who spews that kind of
Edited on Wed Jun-15-11 02:26 PM by hifiguy
imbecilic drivel as a mental defective to whom I will not pay one more second of attention.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
41. +1
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
55. Such a person might not be an imbecile at all
It could merely be someone who wants to manipulate imbeciles, which are a large constituency.
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Starving kids in Africa are part of god's plan
Apparently so was the Holocaust. With a god like this, who needs a devil?
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I feel you on this. I ask that question regularly. If God is a loving God then why does he murder
new born's everyday. I get this response: It's their time to go, to be with God. The baby was born last week. You would think that God would just keep the baby the entire time instead sending him or her to earth and killing him or her immediately.
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Lately
Lately I have been thinking that in order for ANY type of life to thrive on this planet, something or somebody has to die. What type of divine being would create such a place? For what purpose? It seems earth far more resembles hell far more than a heaven. To force beings to kill to survive would be my very definition of hell.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. We humans are violent, and have terrorized this planet for centuries,
based on fables.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. I don't see God murdering anyone. I do however see people doing
it. they have FREE WILL. THey CHOOSE or not to do right or wrong. God has no part in evil. People do and the consequences of the rest of us not rising up and stopping it are ours alone. Truly, unless someone has the fucking video, God doesn't have a hand in our OWN stupid evil.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. But he set the rules...that means he created free will, thereby creating evil.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #28
51. God has full control over his creation, being omnipotent and all. He is just
not caring or... he is a figment of your imagination. Like Santa Claus. Does God talk to you too?
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #28
56. Like all of those earthquakes and volcanous and tornados and floods...
...caused by humans. That might not be willful "evil" but it is "an evil", and if there were a God (which I don't believe there is) He could certainly save people from the horrors of natural disasters.

He could even save people from the full often unforeseen extent of careless or deliberate human actions too, and still leave open quite a bit of room for humans to act of "free will". Our choices are often very limited by circumstances anyway, certainly by the laws of physics all of the time, so it's not like God stepping in to avert a little horror now and then would be such a terrible imposition.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. Why are natural processes "an evil?"
I find it ironic that some people--not necessarily you--seem to amuse themselves by referring to belief in a "sky daddy," yet apparently feel that a proof of atheism is that "daddy" isn't sufficiently in evidence to bail out the kids when they screw up.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. This thread isn't about the existence of just any god, but a god with a "plan"
Although it is, of course, not the only possible interpretation of the words, I think it's fairly reasonable to say the usual intent of the words "It's all part of God's plan" is to convey a sense of comfort and security, to say that no matter how bad things seem ("Doncha worry now, child!") it's all going to come out right in the end.

While I can certainly conceive of a disinterested or even a cruel deity, those deities either have no plans at all as human's would understand them, or their plans would not be at all very comforting to understand.

The kind of God who would sit back and let natural processes cause terrible harm to sentient beings, or to any beings with enough self-awareness to experience great suffering, doesn't seem to fit very well with the kind of God who has an ultimately benevolent "plan" for the world. "The Lord works in mysterious ways" doesn't cut it as a very convincing explanation to me.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. But that's not what you said.
You said:

"That might not be willful "evil" but it is "an evil", and if there were a God (which I don't believe there is) He could certainly save people from the horrors of natural disasters." You yourself separated the idea that natural disasters are "evil" not just from any "plan" but from the existence of God.

So I'll ask again--how are natural processes "evil" in the absence of a deity?
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Not the natural processes themselves...
Edited on Thu Jun-16-11 02:53 PM by Silent3
...but the results that often ensue. I put the phrase "an evil" is scare quotes for a reason: to indicate a broader use the word evil.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evil (emphasis mine):

e·vil (ee-vuhl) –adjective
  1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
  2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
  3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
  4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
  5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.

Is this really a big sticking point for you, or are you just trying desperately to find a "gotcha!"?
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
50. Be of good cheer! God will deal with the Devil in the end times, which are near.
:puke: :puke: :puke:
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RandySF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Everything happens for a reason".
When you hear this, it's never about Cause and Effect.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. so many people believe this.
i just don't. some things happen for no reason at all. certainly no good reason.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
57. I hate the way that phrase is used.
It often seems like people are trying to assume the mantle of scientific logic when they say that, as if they were talking about proven principles of cause and effect, but what they really mean by "reason" are emotional, thought-out motivations of a God or other intelligent force directing things behind the scenes for "reasons" like "teaching us the value of life" (you know, by killing thousands so we learn to appreciate the survivors more) and that sort of crap.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-11 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. People accept God murdering millions of people to appreciate the few
survivors is a sick and twisted way of thinking.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. There are so many people who are looking forward to the end of the world. It is insane.
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. How much must your life suck if you look forward to the world ending?
Seriousluy, these nutbag fundies just need to be wearing black and they'd be indistinguishable from Goths.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I am tired of these people trying to ruin the world for you and I.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. but those words are just part of God's plan.
;-)

Yeah, let's go back to the good old days of "the devil made me do it." ;-)
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'm tired of "god" anything. nt
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. People use these words to justify the repukes actions. To justify Ayn Rand.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. I try to imagine God staring over his Gant chart.
Trying to manage his resources and schedules.

Moving the right wing crazies from activity to activity.

Charts on funding.

And then, I see God banging his head on the table because he has so many blocking issues in the critical path that prevent him from sending Jesus back sooner than the next release of the Windows operating system.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Omg!
:rofl:
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm tired of it...
but it's probably part of God's plan for me to be tired of it.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Of course, everything you do is part of God's plan and God knows what
you are going to do before you are born, but you have free will. Isn't that a contradiction.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I have the free will to do what God knows I am going to do because God planned it
or something like that.


It's like God playing with Barbie dolls. Probably more structured though. I don't think his mom is going to call him to dinner unexpectedly
or that his little brother is going to knock over the dreamhouse and invade the area with GI Joes.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. But if he knows what you are going to do then God creates evil people, but if you say they
Edited on Wed Jun-15-11 03:17 PM by ej510
reply with this: People have a choice whether to do right or wrong. I am confused.:wtf:
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I know, I am confused as well.
If you follow their line of thought out to the end, you can only conclude that humans are way more moral than God.

We don't create children solely for the purpose of eternally tormenting them.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I agree, and everything we mentioned proves my point that religion is holding the planet back.
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
17. God having a "plan" implies that God has any competence whatsoever.
And I think by the condition of the world around us, we can plainly see that He's an idiot.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. If you ask a christian the world proves how much he loves us.
:crazy:
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
24. Article 34, Section 11, Paragraph B.32, sub-paragraph g.9.....
..."The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways".


That should cover anything you don't understand.













sarcasm thingy
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
25. If this is God's plan, it demonstrates incredible lack of imagination
for Someone who is supposed to be omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Destruction, Destruction, and more Destruction.
Edited on Wed Jun-15-11 03:33 PM by ej510
That's called love. That's how you know he loves you. :sarcasm:
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
27. frankly, God doesn't have a 'plan'. He gave us free will and I believe
we sink or swim on our choices. if the majority of us sit on our ass and let the minority destroy this world its because we CHOSE to do so. Us, alone. God is blameless in this shit. Our will is free. Our responsibility is our own.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Depends on who you ask.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. So to be clear ... once God set things in motion, he stepped off stage.
God might be watching, but he is not "active" in the world because that would disrupt our free will, and our limit responsibility.

True?

Or, conversely, does God get involved in the outcome of football games?
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-11 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #38
65. That works for me.
i.e.,
> once God set things in motion, he stepped off stage.
> God might be watching, but he is not "active" in the world

:thumbsup:


Plus, regardless of how good or evil (or uncaring or non-existant)
other people may believe God is, I'm pretty sure that He is far
too advanced to care about football games!
:P
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #27
52. Oh really. So an earthquake that kills children is a product of our free will. Go figure. nt
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. Didn't you know earthquakes are caused by capitalism? :) n/t
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-11 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. I thought they were caused by the gays. Like hurricanes.
:crazy:
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
31. The guys who invented credit default swaps
said the same thing
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
33. Epicurus said it best some 2300 years ago:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

That pretty much sums up the farce of "gawd."
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Rageneau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Except that God is on record saying "My ways are not your ways"...
which maybe means that He can't effectively be judged, predicted, restricted, limited or figured out by human logic, even from smart guys like Epicurus.
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. If that is what you call "on the record"
you can have it. Nothing in the Xtianist book of fairy tales is supported by one atom of extrinsic evidence or any theorem that can be disproved, and disprovability is the touchstone of science, logic and knowledge. Therefore it is by its nature not trustworthy in the slightest.

"I'd rather know than believe." - Carl Sagan
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Didn't he also "made us in his image"??
Does that mean we LOOK like him ... or that we can understand him?

God tends to talk in riddles.

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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. Except that organized religion is based on
the notion that people CAN understand what god means and what god wants. Unless it's convenient to use the "no one can know the mind of god" dodge.
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Permanut Donating Member (477 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
34. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law:


I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
37. The noiton of God is an invention of the fearful mind.
People call upon a God because they are afraid of life and its struggles. Anyone who says tragedies are the will of God are just trying to rationalize the failings of humanity, because they don't want to face the fact that it is human beings who are responsible for our actions not a deity. As Buddha said "Griped by fear people go to the sacred mountains, sacred groves, sacred trees, and shrines."
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Scottybeamer70 Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
40. Just saw this quote today........
"Civilization will not attain to its pefection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest." Emile Zola
Kinda sums it up I think.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. A similar statement, made earlier.
"Mankind will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."

-- Denis Diderot

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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #40
59. There's a more cruelly phrased version of that same basic sentiment...
...that goes like this:

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest" --Denis Diderot.
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fiberlady Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. What I learned growing up with this type of statement was
that I could not question anything about god's plan.
Now I know that this idiotology keeps "em stupid
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
44. It's a way to be completely irresponsible. To say you have no control over your life.
Christianity makes people childlike and irresponsible because they do what they are told by the preachers.

They have no boundaries either, because their parents are constantly being nosy to make sure the kid doesn't get corrupted by that big bad world out there.

Protecting a child from the evil world does not work.

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RandySF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. A lot of cultures are like this
The Chinese refer to "fate" all the time as though they are not capable of making decisions or somehow controlling events in their lives. I personally heard them use this many times.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
46. We've been living in the last days for millennia.
For some reason, each generation seems to think that Jesus' prediction refers to them.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. lol, ain't that the truth.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #46
53. It only took 2000 years. Can't be much longer.
(To borrow a line from Don't mess with the Zohan).
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
49. Ah, but being tired of the words "This is all part of God's plan"...
Edited on Thu Jun-16-11 07:59 AM by Silent3
...is all part of God's plan! :evilgrin:
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
54. Earthquakes, mudslides, volcanoes. Children die. Either God can't prevent it, which makes him
impotent, or he can, which makes him a sadistic psychopath. Or he doesn't exist. Your choice.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #54
68. Fairy tales trump common sense.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
64. Honestly, I can see why Nero wanted to set the Christians on fire
Not saying I would do it, but I can relate
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
67. George Carlin got it right:
But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-11 07:00 PM
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70. If it's all part of god's plan, then he's a shitty planner
Kill off almost all of your chosen people, kill your son while you're at it, force people to love you or be punished forever, be jealous, kill off every species every million or so years, design the human body with the home entertainment system right next to the sewage system, and let Reagan live while JFK, RFK, MLK, Paul Wellstone and Mel Carnahan die. Kill off John Coltrane while preserving Kenny G.

If that's his plan, I want his ass fired!
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-11 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Allowing right wingers to run the world is a good enough reason for me.
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