"Why are you so hostile to Christianity"

Hmmm that's a good one...let me see let me see.


I was born into a religious home. My grandfather was a Calvinist preacher who himself was the son of a Calvinist preacher. Come from a long line of Calvinist "royalty" if you will. Polder Dutch, as they told me. Same origin as the Afrikaans who were the Boers.

Jesus was injected into every little thing I did as a kid. Prayer before meals, Sunday School, all that stuff. I believed it too. Thought Jesus was watching every little thing I did. Over time I started learning about religion, partially because they sent me to fundie schools. You learn things like women should wear skirts, and to wear pants is to dabble in Lesbianism. Proper boys are Christian Soldiers. And etc....

At one school, Valley Christian was its name, we had chapel twice a week, and they would have some speaker come and tell us of the evils of rock and roll, advertising and how were were the last generation to walk the Earth - Jesus was coming soon. Better be in that state of grace.

After a while, I started wondering if this stuff were true. I asked the teachers at the school and instead of saying "go do some research" like a real teacher would have said, they said "pray about it." I started asking questions like "How do we know the Bible is the word of God?"

"Because it says so in the Bible! Now go pray!"

"But isn't that cyclical reasoning?" (I didn't know that term, but I tried to describe that in the best words a Fundy Junior Higher could.

At that moment, I was sent to the Principal's office for two swats: one for blasphemy and one for back talking.

After those swats, something dawned on me. These folks are hiding something!

So I did some research. Turns out, the Bible is full of shit. Not just parts, but practically the whole fucking thing! Bethlehem did not exist until the crusades, a very corrupt Roman Government invented Christianity as we know it today, Jesus may not have even existed, the gospels were written not by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John but societies several hundred years later, The Jews might not have even been Egyptian slaves, The trinity is a ripoff of Zoastrianism and Manicheanism, the first Christians were not Niceans but Gnostics, The Devil does not exist until well into the Old Testament, The bible contradicts itself in a ton of places, God made Ezekiel eat poop, The trinity isn't mentioned in the bible, Jesus never claims to be God, Paul never claimed Christ was God, and so on and so on...

That was just for starters. Also turns out every thing the Chapel Speakers told us was wrong too. "Stairway to Heaven" does not say "My Sweet Satan," nor does any other backmasking song from the 80's. "Empty Spaces" from Pink Floyd does congratulate you on discovering the secret message, but that's about it.

So OK - Christianity is a complete and utter lie, and many of its practitioners are liars.

"Oh but what about all the GOOD things Christianity did?"

Oh you mean like invading the Mideast several times and killing all in its path?

Or do you mean the Spanish Inquisitions?

Or do you mean when Martin Luther started pogroms against the Jews?

Or do you perhaps mean all the good "Christian" politicians do like cutting food assistance to the poor, making soldiers injured in combat pay for their own medical service, or trying to crush unions at every turn?

So far you Christians get two good guys: Martin Luther King Jr and Dietrich Bonhoffer. And a ton of Christians won't even accept the first guy because he's not white.

So...why am I hostile to Christianity?

I guess the question is why more aren't hostile towards it?

But also hostile toward the other religions as well.

Being that I haven't been beaten up by a Buddhist monk yet, nor have I had a Mullah make me stand against a wall for hours until I passed out, and then added an extra hour for not having the fortitude to stand there

Don't forget, I'm sinning by choosing this lifestyle that is an abomination to God. :sarcasm:

The ex-gay movement was and still is critically damaging to the psyches of so many gay people and I blame them in part for the high rate of suicide amongst gay youth.

Does God make mistakes? If so then why did you create a group of people who were born to sin, and other who weren't?

The Ex-Gay movement is...well I don't think its genocide, but there are some very similar strategies and tactics at work

They force you to believe that who you really are, at your core, is WRONG and sinful and evil and put there by the devil himself, and that only by denying all of your natural instincts can you save yourself from certain hell.

To have that mantra beat into you day after day changes a person. Those that make it to the other side have years of therapy (the good kind) to go through before they are ever ok again. And many don't get that far.

So just for that issue alone... I give a big FUCK YOU to their bullshit. All the issues you mentioned too... and I'm sure a thousand more...

progressive churches not only welcome gays--I would not be part of one that didn't-- but is serious in refuting any obscene effort at "reprogramming."

church attendance is dropping, too.

Are the only churches I have seen fully accept gay men and women

Methodists, Episcopals, Presbetyrian, Reformed, Catholic, Orthodox and many other 'mainline' churches may allow gay parishioners, and they might even allow the gay wedding or two. But they still leave it up to their preachers to opt out of tolerance and acceptance.

To me, this means that Christianity has a LONG way to go before it could ever consider itself tolerant

And for me - Fuck tolerance. That's for wimps. I don't just ACCEPT gays, I WELCOME them and VALUE them.

perpetrated on humans. Study the history and the evolution of Christianity and you will find that
institutionalized christianity and what's taught to the masses has little to do with it's origins.

or anything religion, until they open their mouths and insist that I do.
Then I try to be polite.


Tikki

I imagine if becoming hostile to a thing is constructive and helps personal growth, by all means... have it, enjoy yourself and don't stay out too late. It's obviously not a waste of time and am fully confident it will assist you in achieving your goals.

for a example of "condescending"

I'll add the Magdalene "schools" to your list of Christian atrocities.
Hope you got your nomex boxers on!

:applause:

Tradition helps to unite a society. It is all right as long as you don't take it literally. It Italy and Spain, the traditions are respected, and many who don't believe in a personal God still consider themselves as Catholics.


Click on link


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw

who are only disinformed and misguided. I also appreciate those believers who try to put the NT teachings of tolerance, humility and generosity into practice, they're some of the best folks I know.

However, I have little use for 99% of the guys in the robes and/or reverse collars and no use at all for the pompadoured ones on TV.

That's how I'd answer the question.

in particular. But virtually every single point of contention you touched upon can be rebutted. The fact of matter is that a religious argument can never be won, but only argued. I went and did the research AND prayed. I hope you can somehow find some peace.

:boring:

Although in a way, liberating. There is no eternal torment of hell, nor a boring afterlife with praising god and playing harps.

I no longer was scared shitless of death...

I was actually just afraid of falling (from heights). Death isn't scary, but the process of dying is or can be. I actually envision it to be an unending and dreamless sleep. I don't fear sleep, but often like to delay it while I'm up to doing other things. Once I'm ready, though, I welcome the void. Sounds great to me. :hi:

Holy spirit is the vestigial comm line left for updates. Everything else is interpretation, not unlike all the disabled people describing the elephant. Most of the trappings are like homework, for the otherwise lost. Some dint need lame crutches. You can find wisdom in all religions and philosophies. Cept trickle down. In Zen Buddhism, they use conundrums, to get the apprentice past convention. The crucification, resurrection etc, are the same type devices, again, for those that need severe crutches. Those who rigidly adhere to some dogma playbook, should be pittied. They lead fearful existences. And distrust humans as the devil. For the bible tells them so.

And I can't really say that there is anything good that comes out of them. I don't like to laugh at people because of the way they look unless they are dressing specifically to be laughed at - so even their potential to amuse me is lost.

I can say that every gay person who commits suicide is blood on the hands of the Anti-Gay churches. LDS, Catholic, Calvinist, etc - they are complicit in the deaths of millions.

I can say that every child who's intellectual curiosity is stopped is the potential blood of millions on their hands. These children could have been Doctors who cured Cancer, Scientists who discover clean energy sources, scientists who invent the first Quantum Computer...and their intellectual curiosity is killed by the ignorant.

Yes, not all Christians are Jan Crouch. Not all Christians are Dietrich Bonhoffer either.

But when potential is wasted, as it is when a perfectly open mind is shut - this to me no different than the forced retardation the Alphas iforced upon Delta and lower children in Brave New World

If Christianity works for you - good. And I'm not being condescending about that.

But to support those who would stunt our children's intellectual growth, those who would rather a man take his own life than be gay - this is enabling the wolves who want to eat us for dinner.

If I were gay, I would probably dislike Christianity more than I already do - for someone to hold up a bronze-age book and use it as "proof" that you are a wrong person, someone who should not be - that takes a mindset that is too easily accepted in many Christian Circles.

I too would be hostile to that sort of religion. But if I grew up having been taught that scientifically the earth was flat and if you sailed out far enough you would fall off the edge, or a thousand other things good science no longer believes or teaches, I doubt if I would hate all science.
I know a guy who hates vegetables because his mother put them on his plate every night.

Eratosthenes calculated the diameter of the Earth remarkably accurately 2200 years ago, he also calculated the tilt of the Earth's axis amazingly accurately.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

Well done, brother, well done.


:applause:

Off topic, but wasn't that a Robin Trower song?

Doesn't that make you the other side of the coin? You claim to speak with certainty that God does not exist, which is ludicrous, because God exists as a concept, unique to each individual who has a concept of "what it's all about". I think you short change yourself by directing your personal frustration and anger towards those who have bought into the fables. Most of them are harmless, many are truly decent people and some are disgusting. Pretty much like atheists, muslims, agnostics, buddhists and jews.

Try telling that to the folks at any Evangelical Church

How many diseases could we cure if Christianity didn't stifle science for those centuries? Not to mention everything else science might have accomplished. What are we, 500 years behind where we would be if it weren't for Christianity?

The hostility towards science hasn't stopped, the church just can't get the state to prosecute blasphemy laws anymore

nt

You obviously had a repressive upbringing. I didn't, and I was a preacher's kid.

No hellfire and damnation. No getting punished for questioning. No hostility toward science. "The Bible isn't a science textbook," was one of my dad's lines.

But a very rich experience.

anything that matters in this country. Not who gets elected, not what laws get passed, not what gets taught in public schools, not who sits on Appeals Courts, not what our military does.

:shrug:

Look - I think we are on the same side on this one. Yeah, I have a chip on my shoulder. You don't. Doesn't matter to the regressives. They'd love to lock us BOTH up in camps.

that fundamentalist Christianity cannot be (as it so often is here) dismissed as a tiny, fringe minority that atheists and anti-theists use as a convenient caricature or straw man to attack all religion. They are the face, and the force of religion in this country, while "liberal" and "progressive" Christians are as ineffective as Liberal Democrats in making the things happen that really matter.

Stem Cell Research - you and I know there is no ethical dilemma. Yet the Dim Son kept the US out of that venue of biotech.

Creationism in Schools - you and I know the bible is not a science textbook. Yet Republican idiots are trying to get science textbooks that discuss evolution to come with a disclaimer

These are just two things the regressives have done to hold us back as a species and as a nation

If more preachers were like your dad, we wouldn't have the idiots that we do on the street today

themselves a "minister." Most of the TV preachers, Fred Phelps, and a lot of the megachurch guys fall into this category.

If you want to know where my real beef is, its when someone states that their "reality" is more real than my reality

Yours, your dad's and my reality is based on evidence

The regressive's reality is based on fairy tales and stupid emotions

It would be nice if we could all agree on something, like say, a fossil. We could look at it and say "Yep, that's a fossil millions of years old, belonging to a stegosaurus"

But the regressive thinks Jesus rode that particular stegosaurus

They threw Kepler's mother in jail for being a witch. That's in the third episode, called "The Harmony of the Worlds" which is the title of Kepler's treatise, "Harmonia Mundi" in Latin.

They barbecued Giordano Bruno.

They put Galileo under house arrest and made him sign a retraction.

John Calvin barbecued Michael Servetus, the first Unitarian, who was also a medical doctor and knew about blood circulation.

Sagan also talks about the destruction of the library at Alexandria and the murder of Hypatia as one of the great tragedies of history.

he wasn't burned because of being a physician. Not that his heresy and the fear of civil discord he might cause that the Geneva authorities used to condemn him excuses his murder.

But he was also an educated man. I don't know how much Calvin knew about his education.

Religious leaders don't want educated people questioning them. They want obedience in any case.

and Calvin despised him not because of his education but for his theological viewpoint. Religious leaders of the period were among the most educated men of the time so your argument fails there.

it. I live in the most conservative and religious areas of my state and I have never seen anything even close to the horror stories that I hear here from some of you. It kinda makes me think, honestly, Hmmm.

So you might need a time machine

I may be hostile to those who want to base laws and rules on it, and those who want to discriminate against those who do not share it, but Christianity like any religion that has thrived in the modern age of widespread education and communication is a fascinating thing full of interest to me. To correct you a little, the gospels and epistles are for the most part within a century, even a couple of decades in some cases, of the purported days of JC. They certainly grew and changed later, and to be sure are simply examples of any number of mesdsiah stories that flourished at the time, but how two streams of hagiographies, a mystical strweam and a mundane fabulist stream, came together in the first few centuries through both scholarly review and at swordpoint (anyone ever meet an Arianist? There's a reason you haven't) to coalesce into one even vaguely cohesive whole is a profoundly intriguing story.

That books so diverse in intent, and age, and origin purport to tell the story of one god-man is like we asked J.K. Rowling, Noam Chomsky, Stephen King and T.S. Eliot to write separately and in their own style the story of Winston Churchill, without any research and whom they never met of course, to sell to their own audinces, Then in about the year 2240, with all other evidence and stories of the great man somehow removed from history, someone had to put them together to show that he was the son of God. And then in the year 3800 weell educated and informed people had to defend the idea that he really was.

I agree with most of what you say, but I haven't heard that.

Bethlehem was settled around 4000 years ago and has evidence of continuous habitation. Nazareth on the other hand contains no evidence of settlement for about 500-600 BCE and 300 or so CE - nothing from the times JC is supposed to have being "of Nazareth". Nasorean on the other hand......

Duh.

and they are an embarrassment to rational liberal religion, which is slowly winning the battle even among conservative religionists.:) :)

Our country has been around a while. Let's remember that religionists tended to oppose the separation of the colonies for a start. Then let's never forget that all those churches with "Southern" in their names were started to support slavery. Then let's remember that religionists led the fight to keep women from voting. Then let's remember that Protestants led the fight to institute Prohibition. Let's always remember that religionists led and forever will lead the fight against rational family planning.

With a record like that, any actual liberal has to dig in his or her feet. You with me?