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Do Atheists Feel Persecuted Against by Organized Religion?

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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:23 PM
Original message
Poll question: Do Atheists Feel Persecuted Against by Organized Religion?
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Dissent Is Patriotic Donating Member (793 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. I feel castigated but not necessarily persecuted...n/t
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
52. Atheist Discrimination
I have been collecting discrimination narratives from the Atheist community for ten years. Problems are documented and placed into a data bank. If you have an incident to report, contact me:

Margaret Downey
Founder
Anti-Discrimination Support Network
P.O. Box 242
Pocopson, PA 19366
Phone: (610) 793-2737
E-mail: downey1@downey1.cnc.net
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afdip Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. how can you feel persecuted by something you don't believe in??
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. um people are persecuted by other people... not by what they believe in
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 01:28 PM by jsamuel
(i am not atheist)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Are you saying im a fool because im a non believer?
lmao
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Not all non believers are not fools
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 01:32 PM by William769
Just like not all christians are fools. But there are those...
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Kailassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. I can personally guarantee,
that if you don't believe in fairies, you will never get to enter the kingdom of fairyland.

The fools around here are those who post merely to insult people for not believing in something without reasonable evidence.

And if you call the bible evidence, I can just as easily write a book that claims it is inspired by little green men who will kidnap all the naughty people who don't believe in them and jettison them from UFOs as they fly through the sun. After doing the prerequisite anal probing of course.
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. So you mean if a slave doesn't believe in slavery....
he/she wont feel persecuted?
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. The question was not "do you feel persecuted by some mythological deity"?
It was "do you feel persecuted by organized religion"? One clearly exists, the other has failed so far to materialize.

Your response typifies the attitude to which the OP refers.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
95. I'll take this...
I don't believe a person calling themselves "Christian" should be as hateful as those I work with, and I was raised Christian.

I don't believe in their "brand" of "faith", and I feel persecuted.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for these polls
they do tell a bit about the attitudes of people posting here. Since I am neither Christian nor atheist, I haven't voted; perhaps the next poll would be: "Do Mystics Feel Persecuted by Anybody?" The answer would be no. :)
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
94. Hi, Fellow Mystic!
Good to be talking to you again!

(Church of Religious Science is considered to be a mystical religion.)

Ayeshahaqqiqa and I agree on many things.

Ayeshahaqqiqa, you are Sufi, no (another 'mystic' faith)?

We should get together and moan ..
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. Me Personally? Not At All
But apparently many atheists do from past threads on DU.
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. Ofcourse we do.
We are labeled lawless animals who prey on all that is holy by the Christian right.
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. name calling is not persecution. n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
54. Tell that to a black man.
NT!

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Catfight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. It is because of religion I find it hard to 'believe' nt
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. i don't
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 01:29 PM by tk2kewl
but i'm more of an agnostic.

i think the ones that are persecuted are not the atheists per se. there is no actual persecution of atheists by the religiously insane, unless they also happen to be gay, lesbian or female.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. really?
I guess I wasn't fired from that job for being atheist after all.

Holy crap, I'm late for work!

Maybe it was because I'm gay. No, actually, I'm straight and married. Or female? No, I'm a male. Gosh, what else could it have been? Especially since the guy told me he couldn't have non-believers working for him. But he was obviously lying, since atheists are persecuted or anything.

:eyes:
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PerpetualWinter Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #33
86. They never came out and directly said it...
Probably because they knew that I was very knowledgeable in the laws and "vicious" enough to come after them (I sure as hell tried, but the only practicing lawyer that was in my conservative area that would take it had just left the area), but I used to work for a Christian, Conservative, Country radio station as a long haired, agnostic/occultist, liberal, metalhead and when the new management came in when our station was sold it seemed that they waged war against all employees who didn't fit a certain mold.

One of the first things the CFO did when I met him was ask me where I went to church. Yeah, I laughed at him. Then he told me that I couldn't read any of my occultist literature on the job. Now this wouldn't have been a problem if it was a universal policy, but being that we generally did not work with the public and we were permitted to read non-obscene material (including the Bible) and do our homework, that didn't really fly with me either. Next he told me my pentagram was unwelcome because they didn't like "gang symbols." I proceeded to direct him to the Church of Satan and the First Church of Satan and told him that unless he took his cross off I wouldn't take off my pentagram. Yeah, I bucked his system, and they eventually fired me for not following a procedure that I would testify under oath that I did follow that night (there was a lot of up-roar when I was fired being that us part-timers and the chief engineer literally kept that station running).

Now, a little about the previous management. One of my responsibilities at the station was to be in the station at 5:30 am Sunday mornings to do news, play Christian music, and religious broadcasts (including some that I really pondered turning over to the IRS due to the political content). I never once interfered with the broadcasts, in fact I took pride in the fact that our religious broadcasts were virtually flawless (as were all broadcasts under my watch). One of the religious zealots who had a broadcast came into the station to record it. Now this guy is a piece of work (strangely he'll marry any straight couple in his highly conservative religious church, Apostolic Lutheran, and not long after a new high end water front sub-division was built he was one of the first to drop the $150,000 on just a plot... not that I'm insinuating anything) and I would torment him just for the fuck of it. Leave some CDs with inflammatory, yet not obscene, covers around:
or leave my copy of random occultist texts such as the Satanic Bible and the works of Aleister Crowley (among others) lying around where he would find them. (Note: This pastor and I have a bad history outside of this job as well.) After a while he went to the GM and demanded that I was fired. The GM laughed at him, and we all had a meeting together. Basically, the GM told the preacher that if he had a problem with the quality of the broadcast then he had some grounds for discussion. However, if he wanted to continue to try to push for my dismissal he could take his broadcast elsewhere and see if he could get the same price for his half hour of air time.

Yeah, thats not really discrimination at all is it? I was really fired because I was the best worker at the station, and I had more than one (now former) employee at that station that vouched for me. Of course, when I got canned I sorta flipped a desk in the lobby (there was nothing of value on or in the desk and no possibility of anyone except my self getting hurt... I don't completely lose it, everything I do is calculated) so I guaranteed that I would never even try to go back, but it sure as hell made a scene that will be burned into their minds forever. I guess I just figured if they were going to try to pigeonhole me as an evil psychotic non-believer I might as well have some fun in giving them a little evidence.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
11. No....I don't believe in playing the victim game. n/t
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. Relentlessly hunted. nt
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. Like the Jews in Germany? Really? n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
55. When did bemildred mention the Jews?
Trying to set up a strawman, are we?

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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. Just a matter of perspective, depends on whose ox is being gored I suppose
I guess I'm not ready to be so easily intimidated, still have a little fight in me.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Not sure why you'd feel intimidated, but...
..I think you jumped in expecting an argument.

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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Oh, not by the thread, by the fundies. I like it here.
I'm not ready to view their irritations and harassments in a way that I'm a victim.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. I don't consider myself a "victim" either but
I'd like to know your opinion on atheists being excluded from running from office.
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #71
78. There is no religious test...
But, you are right, there is in essence a de facto religious test for electability. But that is because "we" have allowed there to be. Excluded from running? When? Where? May be unelectable as such, but I'm not aware of anyone who is otherwise qualified being barred from filing the papers, and running for office.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. Think again:
A current listing from Religious Tolerance.org:

The Bill of Rights of the Texas Constitution (Article I, Section 4) allows people to be excluded from holding office on religious grounds. An official may be "excluded from holding office" if she/he does not "acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."

This would specifically exclude all Atheists and Agnostics from holding public office. It would also exclude:
* Most Buddhists, who do not believe in a personal deity.
* Members of the Church of Satan; they are typically agnostics.
* Some Unitarian Universalists.
* Some followers of the New Age who do not believe in the existence of a personal deity

However, Wiccans and Zoroastrians are acceptable, as they believe in two deities -- twice as many as Section 4 requires. Hindus would also be good enough because they generally acknowledge the existence of millions of deities. The number, gender, shape, size and other attributes do not matter, as long as you believe that a Supreme Being of some sort exists.

This form of religious intolerance is not limited to Texas. Six other states ( MA, MD, NC, PA, SC and TN) all have similar language included in their Bill of Rights, Declaration of Rights, or in the body of their constitutions.

In a few states whose constitutions include the text of the oath of office, the candidate must swear an oath to God. Such an oath would prevent ethical non-theists from taking office.

However, now that these Constitutions include discriminatory and intolerant language, the states are probably stuck with it. The passages will forever affirm that people who follow some minority religions were considered unreliable second- class citizens of questionable morality -- at least at the time that the state constitutions were written. They could only be removed through constitutional change; this requires at least a majority vote of the citizens of the state. With the present political leadership and religious climate towards non-theists, this is not going to happen.

*********************************************************************

* Maryland's Bill of Rights: Article 36:

" That as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore, no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate, on account of his religious persuasion, or profession, or for his religious practice, unless, under the color of religion, he shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others in their natural, civil or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent, or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain, any place of worship, or any ministry; nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness, or juror, on account of his religious belief; provided, he believes in the existence of God, and that under His dispensation such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefore either in this world or in the world to come."

Comments: In this state, a juror or witness might be considered incompetent if they do not believe in the existence of God. Although humans worship many Gods, the Article does not specify which one is being referred to; presumably it is the Judeo-Christian deity. Not only must a person believe in such a deity, but they must apparently believe in a Heaven and a Hell.


* Massachusetts' Declaration of Rights:

* Article III:
"As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily."

Comments: The constitution allows individual municipal bodies to tax everyone (Anglicans, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Protestants, non-believers, etc.) in order to maintain Protestant clergy.
* Article:
"...every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law: and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law."

Comments: All Christian denominations are considered of equal status, and are to be equally protected under the law. Non-Christian groups appear to be left out in the cold.


* North Carolina's Constitution, Article 6 Sec. 8:

" Disqualifications of office. The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God...."

Comments: "Almighty God" apparently refers to the Judeo-Christian God. This Section would appear to disqualify anyone who is not a Christian or Jew from holding office in the State.


* Pennsylvani a Declaration of Rights: Article 1, Section 4:

"No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth."

Comments: Apparently anyone who denies the existence of God OR who denies the existence of heaven and hell can be held ineligible to hold office or be a member of the PA civil service.


* South Carolina's Constitution, Article 4 Section 2:

" Person denying existence of Supreme Being not to hold office. No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."

Comments: "The Supreme Being" apparently refers specifically to the Judeo-Christian God. This Section would appear to disqualify anyone who is not a Christian or Jew from holding office in the State.


* South Dakota: We could not locate a copy of its Constitution on the Internet.


* Tennessee's Bill of Rights: Article 9:

* Section 4: " That no political or religious test, other than an oath to support the Constitution of the United States and of this state, shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this state."
* Section 2. " No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state."

Comments: Section 4 says that there is to be no religious test. Section 2 is that there is a religious test. Nobody who denies God or heaven or hell can hold office.


* Texas' Bill of Rights Section 4:

" RELIGIOUS TESTS: No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."

Comments: As noted above, only theists can hold office civil servant in Texas.

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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #80
87. Have I been asleep for 53 years???!!!!
Has everyone known this but me???
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. Heh.
No, it's not just you.

Most people don't know about it.

That's why I like to post these in threads whenever someone says atheists aren't discriminated against in this country.

It seems we're not considered qualified to be Americans, just like Poppy said.

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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Thanks,
I don't know if I feel "better" for knowing this, but at least I've learned something.
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wtbymark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
14. is it really relevant what I believe or don't believe?
I'm not nominated for the supreme court
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. persecuted, abused and under attack by creationism in particular
them peoples is evil.
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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. religion
I dont believe in organized religion at all..........everyone
should just believe in GOD only, and get rid of organized religion,
the world would be a better place..
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. I don't know....
"Persecuted" is an awfully big word and I think it gets abused. I'm an Atheist and I would describe the feeling more as being too easily dismissed or flat out ignored by organized religion. The scary question is what is worse? Being hated or being ignored?

In America, I think the only thing keeping me from feeling persecuted against by Christian fundamentalists is their laser-like focus on persecuting Muslims and homosexuals right now. They seem to have too much hate on their plate to be bothered by us mere non-believers.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
20. I'm not an atheist, but have been fired form 3 jobs for being a Buddhist..
they broke into my lunch box and found a book by the Dahai Lama, they went thur my coat in one job when i was working, and i got fired for having a 'Free Tibet' bumper sticker...

i believe there are gods but they live in their own realm.. it is the demi-gods like Jehovah and Allah the cause all the problems.. they are so jealous..always F'n stupid humans.. Get Life--- Get Counseling assholes
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Who the hell dislikes Buddhists???
and there had to be other reasons for being fired than your beliefs.

If it is true, I hope you sued the shit out of them.
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. I voted "yes" although I have only felt that way the past 5 years.
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 01:46 PM by rzemanfl
The 53 before the 2000 election were okay.
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. I don't feel persecuted for being an Atheist although I do feel.....
Madeleine Murray O'Hare was persecuted for being so vocal and public about it. If you tell Christian people you are an Atheist they are usually appalled and most of them try to convert you right then and there. They also tell you that you really aren't an Atheist and in your heart of hearts you must believe in God. They seem to take it personally.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
24. Only when the organized religion is trying to run the government.
I don't really care (much) if someone says blessing before Thanksgiving meals, or tells me they are praying for me when I confide a problem. It makes me feel uncomfortable, but not persecuted.

When Supreme Court nominees are chosen because of their religion, or my child has to pledge to a nation "under God" or someone tries to teach her creationism or ID, or I hear a local, state or federal government start a meeting or legislation with a prayer, then yes, I become aware that my government doesn't consider me as an equal citizen.

On the other hand, when I hear Jesse Jackson or Jimmy Carter justify their good deeds with religion, or I see a group called "Christ in Action" arrive on the Gulf Coast after a hurricane to provide relief days before the feds get there, it makes me warm up a bit.

So there is organized religion, and there is a government autocracy wannabee that pretends it is an organized religion.
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
25. Really?
We have atheists who've been burned at the stake recently? Imprisoned? Enslaved? Stoned? Crucified? Driven from their home?

Or

been made mad, pissed off, frustrated? I would posit there is a significant difference between the two. Being pissed off doesn't mean you're persecuted.

Let's have our "persecution model" be the Jews during the Holocaust. All else is just inconvenience.
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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Oh
you mean we cant feel persecuted until they're gassing us? great but wont it be a tad bit to late to complain?
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I just want a kind of real world measure.
We've had persecution in the world, and some of the worst has been religious, e.g. the Spanish Inquisition, Salem witch trials, The spanish colonization of central america, and as much as I loathe the fundies, I'm not yet so paranoid to pretend that that is happening to us. So maybe I'm parsing words. I just don't think our daily outrage caused by Dobson and Robertson is of the same cloth as 6 million Jews.

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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Well, just so long as
you're demonstrating a measure of practicality to it.

I don't think the OP was "Are atheists being exterminated" or anything. Look up "persecution" some time. Wikipedia has it as

Persecution is persistent mistreatment of an individual or group by another group. The most common forms are religious persecution and ethnic persecution. The terms have some overlap, as religion is an aspect of culture that can be a barrier.

Yeah, I can see where a baseline of exterminating 6 million of us is required to fit that definition.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. So the slaves in the US weren't persecuted by your model?
There was no attempt at genocide.
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
63. Wasn't trying to create an exhaustive list...
just a little perspective. Add the enslavement of millions of blacks in this country and their suffering at the hands of institutional racism ever since, of thousands of lynchings ignored by authorities. Are atheists today claiming they are walking that walk?
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #63
90. I'll speak for myself.
No. I have not and do not plan on claiming that I have suffered anywhere near the persecution of the Jews in the Holocaust nor the slaves and their descendants in the United States. I'll also add in that the goings on in Darfur are worse, too. And Chapas, too. That is worse. And Native Americans; they got a pretty bad shaft, too.

But (you knew it was coming), if you honestly think that Atheists aren't shat upon in our predominately Christian society, you are fooling yourself. As much as we would all admit that saying someone was "jewed" out of something is not a good thing to say (though surprisingly, being gyped out of something is somehow OK even though it is a derogatory reference to my heritage), do we correct people when they make a statement that a person who is morally bankrupt and commits heinous crimes must be "some kind of atheist"? Probably not. When people wanted to insult Pat Robertson for being the enormous douche that he is, what did they say? Bastard? No. Ass? No. Money-hungry prick? No. They called him an atheist. That was what they felt was the worst thing they could call him. Did anybody come out and say that was disparaging? Did anyone come to the aid of atheists everywhere that are good people? No.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #63
91. How's THIS for perspective, from my own "neck of the woods"
http://www.freep.com/news/cfp/3/vshoot28_20041028.htm

snip>>A Taylor police dispatcher took the call at precisely 12:44 p.m. on Oct. 18.

A 49-year-old man said he'd just blasted a man with a revolver and a shotgun because the man said he didn't believe in God.

The dispatcher said the alleged shooter told him he'd just shot "the devil himself" and was still armed and standing over the body of the 62-year-old victim "in case he moved."

"I want to make sure he's gone," the alleged shooter told the dispatcher.

The dispatcher asked the suspect how many times he shot the victim.

"Hopefully enough," was the suspect's chilling reply...
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
47. Turn on just about any broadcast channel on a Sunday morning.
There's no shortage of well-manicured preachers telling everyone that this country is headed to hell because of godlessness.

Substitute any other racial or religious group into that sermon, and tell me what it sounds like.

"This country is doomed because of Jews."

"This country is doomed because of blacks."

"This country is doomed because of atheists."

When hatred for me because of my (lack of) beliefs is broadcast on the public airwaves, it's certainly not as bad as the Holocaust but it ain't exactly comforting either.
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #47
64. But is that persecution?
I really feel like maybe I'm tracking down the wrong path, that I'm using a model of persecution that is not shared. I don't feel I can say I've suffered like those who were lynched, gassed, driven from homes. That to me is persecution.

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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. There are degrees of persecution
Ours is not the same persecution suffered by homosexuals or racial minorities. But neither are our circumstances. We do not have obviously recognisable external traits. Nor are our relationships tells for our differences. Thus we remain hidden easier.

If regailing you with stories of skeptics and atheists being killed by believers would convince you I could certainly provide them. But in our modern times such atrocities are not key. Suffice to say that in the days where people would kill those who were different those that could hide their differences did so much more thoroughly.

But in these modern days we have come to expect that we can live openly be it our sexual prefrences or our religious beliefs. Atheists are still pressured into their closests in this day and age. If not kept in our closets we are kept isolated by the fact that if we make ourselves known in order for other atheists to find us we endanger our social status and even our careers.

Forget about being an atheist and getting elected. Even if we stood for the very things the population hoped for in a leader the mere fact that we do not believe in god dooms our chances. You see we are the permissible prejudice.

Its ok to think that atheists are immoral. In our society if a preist or minister tells the public that the godless are evil or immoral not an eye is batted. It is permissible in our society to decry a person's character by their lack of faith in god.

Lets take Star Jones as an example. She publically stated that she believes atheists are not to be trusted. She claimed she would not even trust one to baby sit for her. Where was the public outcry? Where were the liberal theists rising up to confront her prejudice? They were no where to be found as it is permissible in our society to proclaim atheists unworthy.

So no, we are not persecuted as the blacks were. We are not persecuted as the homosexuals are. But we are persecuted none the less.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
56. Bigotry is bigotry, and persecution comes in many forms.
Just as it is bigotry to hate a believer for being a believer, it is bigotry to hate atheists for not believing in unproven gods.

Bigots tend to persecute those they hate, and it comes in many forms.

Would a black man being called the n-word not rate as persecution in your book? The intent on the part of the bigot would be to assign the black man a lower place in humanity, yet if the black man is not burned at the stake, would you argue that no persecution has taken place?

The Holocaust is not the only persecution model active in the world. I repudiate such a narrow definition as opportunistic to your argument and logically unsound.

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
30. I don't see an "other" choice.
I don't feel persecuted but there is obvious discrimination against atheists in this country.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. And Obvious Favoritism And Deference Given To Theists.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Almost everywhere we go.
You risk a lot when you come out of the closet.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Yes...Like Becoming Valueless... Being Told To Shut-Up Or Tread-Lightly...
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 02:34 PM by arwalden
... or being warned watch one's step is also common. My very existence is "insulting" and threatening to most folks. My refusal to pay respects to a myth opens up accusations of being rude, insulting, or of being personally offensive and attacking.

I find this to be true in the real world as well as the digital one. We're third-class citizens. Persona non grata.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. I hate when people try to say we claim persecution.
Like we're whining just because we cannot be elected to office in several states.

Hell, as a gay person, you can serve as an elected official in Texas.

But if you tell them you don't believe in a supreme being, you're disqualified.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Look Around... And You'll See Who Actually Gets Coddled.
It's not difficult to see the truth. Of course WE know that, but if others would look more objectively at everything, and if they were honest with themselves, I think that they would see the same thing that I do.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. I don't feel persecuted etiher but I feel looked down upon
I get much more negative feedback when i state my atheism than I do when i tell people I am gay. when i tell people I am an atheist i get this condescending "awwwwww, what happened?" they think I am angry or had a bad experience. whatever. I guess I am one of those wierdos that requires proof before i believe something. :shrug:
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Yep.
Condescension is a common reaction.

Like you fell off your tricycle and have a boo boo.

Oh, wait.
I'm thinking of the leader of the free world.
:P
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. LOL... Same Here.
It's as though I'm not so much an actual atheist as someone who's angry with a deity. They seem to assume that I still believe in the existence of the deity, but that I reject it by labeling myself an atheist. As if I'm exacting some sort of revenge.

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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
31. I feel threatened
not necessarily persecuted yet, but I could see that happening.
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I can certainly agree with that.
I'm at a public university, wifey teaches in public school. there are daily assaults upon the seperation of church and state by the fundies, becoming more aggressive and threatening.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. The teacher 4 doors down from me
told one of her classes that there was no such thing as seperation of church and state (the student challenged her use of A.D.). They are all over the place.
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. did anyone correct her? n/t
n/t
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
36. I feel persecuted when I'm not allowed to have an opinion about their
religious "opinion." Apparently religion is a status that's protected to the point that it's above criticism.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Welcome to Amerikkka, the newest theocracy.
Enjoy your stay.
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. I don't have a problem with them criticizing athiesm or even prosletyzing
(so long as it doesn't cross the line into harassment), but I better damn well be able to call their religious beliefs "silly" and "immoral" in return if I so feel.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Take it from an uppity atheist,
there's freedom of speech, and then there's what happens to those that get a little too free with their speech.


You know?
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. Yeah. I know. I try not to be disrespectful, but I'm usually honest
can I help it if I find religion to be unreasonable?
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Unfortunately,
the fact that we exist is a perceived threat to some believers.
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I'm not even sure I'm an athiest, mostly I don't think it matters WHAT I
think. Either there's a "God" that hasn't done anything to demonstrate that "it" exists in any form that humanity can appreciate, or there isn't. Either way I don't think my (or anybody else's) opinion matters. I think this makes me somewhat more than an agnostic and somewhat less than a full blown athiest. What do you think?
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Heh. I felt the same way.
Until I was forced to come out of the closet and defend myself against the militant christians.

I am an atheist, not because I claim there are no gods, but because I have seen no evidence that there are gods.

I posted this in another thread, it's from Austin Cline in his Guide to Agnosticism / Atheism.

Theism, broadly defined, is simply the belief in the existence of at least one god. Contrasted with this is atheism: broadly defined, it is the absence of belief in the existence of any gods. There is, unfortunately, some disagreement about this definition of atheism. It is interesting to note that most of that disagreement comes from theists — atheists themselves tend to agree on what atheism means.

Christians in particular dispute the definition used by atheists and insist that atheism means something very different. According to them, atheism is the denial of the existence of any gods; the absence of belief in any gods is, for some strange reason, often ignored — at best it might be mistakenly referred to as agnosticism, which is actually the position that knowledge of gods is not possible.


The term agnosticism is certainly more socially acceptable and the militant christians sure do love that word, but you'll probably find that most atheists define it the way I do.

Ultimately it's up to you to define yourself or not.
I received a crash course in what's at stake in the battle for freedom from religion as soon as junior was installed in the White House and made his infamous inauguration address.

Of course, moving to the buy-bull belt didn't help either.


Some good sites to visit:

http://www.atheists.org/
http://atheistempire.com/main.html
http://www.positiveatheism.org/
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #61
76. I suggest you check out the Brights website-
might want to add to your links. One of the fundamental problems is that we brights have allowed ourselves to be "framed" in terms of what we're not.
A-theist means not theistic. A bright is someone who has a naturalistic worldview, free of magical or supernatural imperatives or influences.
It is not that we are against others' gods, nor do we hold some sort of "belief"
in no gods. We don't "believe" in a not god, just have no beliefs in any god.
We are not saddled by any particular belief.
Our minds or brains may be constructed differently-no one knows, as yet-but, whatever the underlying cause is, we just don't see any need to clutter up reality with an unnecessary, to us, layer of supernatural belief systems.

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. Sorry, but I have checked it out and I hate the name "Bright".
It's cute and it's supposed to make people feel all warm and fuzzy about us, but in reality, it's no different than atheists calling themselves agnostics in order to avoid the negativity associated with atheism.

I am proud to call myself an atheist.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #77
81. kewel
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #49
69. That was a key point of Roger Williams, and...
one of the reasons he was booted out of Massachusetts. He vociferously defended freedom of worship, dedicated his life to separation of chruch and state, but always reserved the right to ridicule and castigate those whose religious beliefs he saw a faulty. BAsically, believe what you want, but I'll call you a fool if I wish.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
53. Nope - by some of its followers.
Christianity didn't put the unconstitutional phrase "under god" in the pledge - believers did.

Christianity didn't make the unconstitutional decree that "in god we trust" be on all currency - believers did.

Christianity didn't make the unconstitutional laws in several states that atheists can't run for public office - believers did.

Christianity didn't push Prohibition - believers did.

I could go on, but you get my point. A vocal minority of self-righteous assholes who want to control others based on their own mythological beliefs have made people like me feel persecuted, but the belief system itself doesn't affect me in the slightest.

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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
57. I feel persecuted by organized religion and I am a christian
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 05:18 PM by DanCa
Of course if you read my excommunication post it actually happened. And my biggest fear is that the gop will outlaw christianity unless your a practicing republican.
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
65. So what are we going to do about this?
I've been arguing semantics, but can certainly agree with most of what has been said, so our challenge would seem to be how to affect change that can shift the drift of the mass of passive citizenry to a more open, free and safe society. Engage or retreat?
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. Um,
where has passivity gotten us so far?

You can reason with liberal believers, but they're not the threat.
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really annoyed Donating Member (650 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
67. I feel great
I try to take life with a little humor.

I'm agnostic though, and I try to keep my mind open to a new idea. I never know what may come along.

I try to keep my life smooth and happy. No doubt there is prejudice against atheism, but a lot of people face the same prejudices they do, including Christians. No doubt individual believers have been snubbed by organized religions for not following their guidelines to worship, belief, and politics.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
73. I know I shouldn't, but I do...
After all, you have to be part of the SEVENTY PERCENT PLUS in this country that believes something that about NINETY PERCENT of the people "have no problem with" before you've earned the right to call yourself "persecuted"...

But yet, I do.
Must be that I listen to that famous Atheist, Jim Dobson, telling me to beat my kids and Dachshunds every morning while I'm trying to wake up...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
74. Persecuted? No, but...
Edited on Thu Oct-13-05 01:01 AM by Behind the Aegis
...discriminated against? OH YES! When someone reveals s/he is an atheist, people look at her/him like s/he just kicked a cat (of course, Frist would smile). To me "persecution" evokes the action of actively pursuing an agenda against some. "Discrimination against" someone/group can be active or passive, but doesn't conjure the image of "going after someone/group." If laws were being established or even proposed that atheists shouldn't be allowed to marry, hold certain jobs, being 'rounded up,' branded with a scarlet "A," etc.; that would be persecution. I know there are some laws in some states that prohibit atheists from holding government jobs, but that is discrimination...when the law was proposed and lobbied, and passed, that was persecution.
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EmmaP Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #74
79. Running for Political Office
I have a friend in NC (an atheist) who wants to run for local office (county council, school board, etc.) but he can't unless he lies. They have a law on the books that you have to believe in god to run for/hold office - I can't remember the exact language he gave me, but that's what it boils down to.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #79
82. Yes...and that is discrimination.
If he is chased out of town...that is persecution. I am familiar with the NC law, and I think there are two more states and a handful of counties that have similar laws, which are all unconstitutional.
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EmmaP Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. You said...
"If laws were being established or even proposed that atheists shouldn't be allowed to marry, hold certain jobs, being 'rounded up,' branded with a scarlet "A," etc.; that would be persecution."

emphasis mine

And I gave an example of exactly that.



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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. Read again....
"If laws were being established or even proposed that...would be persecution. I know there are some laws in some states that prohibit atheists from holding government jobs, but that is discrimination...when the law was proposed and lobbied, and passed, that was persecution."
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EmmaP Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. Definitions of Persecute
Oxford OnLine:
persecute
• verb 1 subject to prolonged hostility and ill-treatment. 2 persistently harass or annoy.

Merriam-Webster OnLine:
Main Entry: per·se·cute
...
1 : to harass in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : PESTER


I believe a law preventing someone from running for office based on his/her religious beliefs would (a) be ill-treatment and (b) cause that person to suffer.

The law is also oppressive and discriminatory. That doesn't mean it's not an example of persecution.
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FM Arouet666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
75. Persecuted may be a bit strong, oppressed perhaps.
How many atheists feel that they can freely divulge their world view to others, in all social settings? I wish I could claim to be the flag bearer of atheism, but the truth requires a bit more pragmatism.

When have you found religious folks hesitant to declare their beliefs? The prevailing mindset in the U.S. is that you should believe in a god, any god, admitting a lack of belief is frowned upon. I do feel oppressed and think persecution would follow with a universal declaration of my atheism.

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GOPFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
92. Not so much persecuted as offended
I'm offended by their assumption that because they believe in a God, their rights trump my rights.
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demigoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
93. I feel harassed and have for many years. It started in grade school
for me. I moved around a lot and some kid would ask, 'are you saved?' and want me to come to church and if I said no, they could not speak to me again. If you train your kids that way, it sure feels like harassment.
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