52 Facebook Friends Removed Themselves Overnight.....

....from my profile over the following post I made a few days back...

"God doesn't want to hear your PRAYERS if he has equipped you with gifts and resources to assist those in need.... Prayer is useless without ACTION. So if your an auto mechanic and you know someone who's car is broke, don't pray for them FIX IT. If your a contractor and your neighbor has a hole in the roof, don't pray for them FIX IT...If you have a friend without food and your shelves are full don't pray share some food with them....If you have a friend who is having difficulty's with life and have a shoulder,don't pray for them, give them your shoulder to cry on. Prayer is an easy out to just ignore the problem"

Basically telling those who are self proclaiming Christians God would rather see ACTION than your prayers.

In other words...get off your knees and help people.

I would try it myself, but I don't have any FB Friends who are religious nuts.

:*

. . . I agree; spelling errors could turn people off to an important message.

isn't that kind of inadvertently lumping him in with them?

:blush:

That certainly wasn't my intent. And besides, most of us misspell words from time to time (we're in a hurry, overly excited) - but 'baggers, I believe, don't know any better. At the very least, most of us would proofread our SIGNS before going out in public. :hi:

Of course they probably do ask each other
if it "looks write." :)

The signs ARE entertaining, to be sure! :)

:hi:

Hi, Mary. :)

it should be 'white' not 'write'

If I'm reading something interresting that has my atttentionn, (WHICH IS THE POINT), i d ont pai attention two
tha speling.

The message is the point most of the time.

..... would it not be a grammar error not a spelling error. ‘Your’ is spelled correctly just misused instead of ‘You are’ or ‘You’re’

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Not always though.

:yoiks:

"Your" does not equal "you're". Repeating the mistake repeatedly still doesn't make it right.

suspect, although if I'm wrong I'll gladly admit it. Personally, I only pick on the grammar and spelling of right-wing idiots.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/quotation.htm

snip:

In the United Kingdom, Canada, and islands under the influence of British education, punctuation around quotation marks is more apt to follow logic. In American style, then, you would write: My favorite poem is Robert Frost's "Design." But in England you would write: My favorite poem is Robert Frost's "Design". The placement of marks other than periods and commas follows the logic that quotation marks should accompany (be right next to) the text being quoted or set apart as a title. Thus, you would write (on either side of the Atlantic):

What do you think of Robert Frost's "Design"? and
I love "Design"; however, my favorite poem was written by Emily Dickinson.

I can think of others.

I was not quoting a sentence where a period inside the quotation marks would have been appropriate. I was using quotes around two separate (and dissimilar) words to highlight them. My sentence ended outside the quotes, which is why the period is there.

For me, misspellings and repeated incorrect uses of common words are signs (not the only ones) of a right-wing idiot. I know that is not an ironclad rule, but it seems accurate most of the time.

but it was grammer more than spelling. A comma or a dash before - Fix it - would help. You're instead of your, whose instead of who's. I guess difficulties is spelled wrong, unless the difficulty could be said to posses something, as in "the difficulty's real hardship comes in the long recovery." or some such statement.

As far as theology goes, maybe one could quote James 2: 14 - 17

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have work? Can faith save him?
If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

or you could use this video by the late Rich Mullins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lZzp1u1PDQ

But thank you for focusing on the errors of form over the validity of content. I don't know about the OP, but experience tells me that most people appreciate having their faults discussed publicly, rather than pointed out privately.

I'm sorry you lost so many friends, but truth be told, they really weren't.

They obviously don't share your very good values.

Fuck 'em.

:hug:

Well said

n/t

do more than ten thousand clasped in prayer."

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

This quote from Epicurus sums up the "believing in god" problem to me:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

I could afford to lose a few fanatics.

...one of my very best friends is a Presbyterian minister who posts stuff like that all the time! She's lost a few friends as well, but she's got hundreds of others who agree with her.

Keep fighting the good fight. :)

I once an education pastor at my local church and stayed true to the literal meaning of scripture and required it of my teachers. It is really sad to see how many people think prayer is like Ron Popell convection oven where you set it and forget it and they have the resources and don't share which is a definite violation of the Holy Spirit.

And yet they pray for more wealth,better health and a a vacation that is out of this world. Pray has become another form of denial in the modern church more holding on to the bar-bells but never lifting.

for some people, prayer is all they have between them and the insane asylum. If it gives them comfort to weather the bad times, I wouldn't knock it.

Second, the sad thing is, that people pray for things that are sometime good. Either to give them strength to do what needs to be done, and/or for other people to turn around and do the right thing to return to a more civilized world.

I have found myself praying for Barack Obama, and all of us, the average folks. And animals. And the Earth.

I haven't prayed since I was a small kid.

I may be different than most. I no longer expect my fellow man to do the right thing. I pray for strength to move forward to make the kind of decisions that most people avoid because they know it's a losing battle. You might say, it's a form of meditation. If I were to tell you that I was a Buddist and was zenning myself into the right attitude, you probably wouldn't have a problem with it.

(though I'm not sure about doing so at DU...lol)

I agree with the OP that sometimes people use prayer as a cop-out of sorts. Yet, there are times when all we can offer another -- for any number of valid, unselfish reasons -- are prayers, well wishes, good vibes, hugs, etc.

I do believe in the power of many people being focused on a positive intention, including in the form of what some call prayer. Even if it doesn't affect the outcome of whatever is being focused upon, it can serve to empower those participating in such a positive joint exercise.

If there is truly nothing else one can do to alleviate another's suffering, prayer/well wishes/good vibes/hugs are SOMETHING positive, which is always preferable to ignoring and thus dehumanizing the one suffering.

Perhaps in cases where people COULD do something concrete to help another yet choose not to because it would inconvenience them, then perhaps prayer would be more of a selfish choice on their part, serving to make THEM feel better more than the object of their prayers.

The main reason this subject has been on my mind so much of late is because of Rick Perry (him praying for rain and the prayerpalooza event recently).

I don't cringe when I hear of Native Americans and other indigenous peoples praying for rain or for healing, nor do I cringe or think anything negative when I hear of people gathering in prayer in general.

Yet my knee-jerk reaction to the Rick Perry events (and similar American Christian fundamentalist events), is to roll my eyes and gag a bit. That's the general reaction of most DUers, and it may serve to devalue the whole idea of prayer/good vibes/well wishes.

I'm not entirely sure why I also have that immediate reaction. Maybe it's that I perceive so many fundamentalist religious types as being hypocrites?

I don't disagree with or object to prayer in and of itself when the prayers are for good (though I suppose that could be subjective) and to relieve suffering, but there is a special brand of snake oil-type prayer that turns me off right away. I think that's why I react to the Rick Perry and other US fundamentalist prayer events with such skepticism. From the outside looking in, given their words and deeds about fellow humans, their particular brand of prayer doesn't feel authentic or kind in any way...it feels empty.

But I'm admittedly very judgmental about these things. ;)

of his constituents?

And because we try to have a modicum of
Church/State separation in this country.

I'm not in any office and not doing it as an official thing like, "God, please kill group X b/c I don't like them."

It's more like, God, if You exist, we're pretty fucked now, and I see no way out. If You exist, please give BO the strength to lead us all out of this quagmire b/c I'm really getting afraid at this point.

God may not really give a shit, either, though.

documentary on some horrendous thing the corporations were doing in the developing countries I prayed that God would stop them even if it meant we had to suffer in this country. So you see I may be to blame for this whole mess - if so I am sorry. But I still want them stopped.

"So you see I may be to blame for this whole mess..."

:rofl:

:hug:

It still gave me a chuckle.

;)

:hi:

The lack of separation of church and state always makes me cringe.

Still, let's just say any time I hear of a Christian evangelical event where they pray for something (even when no politician is present), I cringe in the same way.

Let's face it, the right-wingers are destroying everything that was once good. Using prayer for all the wrong reasons. I think it's time to show them how to use it for all the right reasons.

are you old enough to remember pre-Reagan America? I am. And I see these kids in their 20s, with over 100k in student debt, running around with PT jobs serving food, and I think - wow, poor kid. It wasn't always like this, and, due to forces that came to power before you were even born, your Life really sucks. And it's going to keep sucking worse and worse.

gadgets that allow them to stay in touch with each other. Hopefully they can organize and stop the pirating that's taking place by older generations. Nobody plays fair anymore.

Us food-service college grad indentured servants do not have much hope for our current situation.

And our future prospects look even more bleak.

If there is truly nothing else one can do to alleviate another's suffering, prayer/well wishes/good vibes/hugs are SOMETHING positive, which is always preferable to ignoring and thus dehumanizing the one suffering.


I submit that if there is truly NOTHING that one can do to help another human being that is suffering, then prayer/well wishes/good vibes are nothing more than a tool to make the person who is praying/well wishing/sending vibes feel better about the fact that there is nothing they can or are willing to do.

Those actions, IMO, do nothing to alleviate the suffering of another.

Perhaps one thing you may not be considering is the recipient of those prayers/well wishes/good vibes.

We're looking at this from the perspective of the one doing the praying, and how it may be a selfish action to only make them feel better (and I agreed earlier that this may indeed be the case at times).

Yet what if the person suffering truly appreciates that someone is offering prayers/well wishes/good vibes, and that someone is thinking of them in a positive way?

That can't hurt, imho. If we can't help in a direct, concrete manner, then at least we can do no harm. And to completely ignore another's plight can do so much harm.

Personally, I think we should be open to a wide spectrum of ways to offer positive action, and positive action can be as simple as praying or hoping for, or whateverthefuckyawannacallit, something GOOD for another.

Though I'm one of the biggest PITAs when it comes to DOING something to alleviate suffering and preventing it to begin with (social justice, not charity), I realize that everyone's pain and suffering can't be alleviated.

Caring and kindness can come in many forms, imho, and I personally welcome that however it manifests, so long as it's genuine and heartfelt. I don't think most people want sympathy or charity.

I don't believe prayer and such should replace more direct action when possible and should never be used as an excuse or means of shunning responsibility, but I do believe it comforts people - both the giver and the recipient -- and I'm all for people finding comfort however they can.

:hi:

and have discovered that there have been several studies that show that the recipient gains no measurable positive benefit (and in some cases, a very measurable NEGATIVE benefit) from prayer, especially when the recipient is unaware that someone is praying for them.


Have a look and decide for yourself.

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CEMQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.calvin.edu%2F~dav4%2FDocuments%2FPrayer.ppt&rct=j&q=efficacy%20of%20prayer&ei=7vVjTtXoIcuPsAK1sLykCg&usg=AFQjCNG8_tE4VHDz8FJcCyD7gDwOqOWD2Q&cad=rja

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/power_of_prayer/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

But first of all, I guess I'm not as stuck on the "prayer" aspect as so many others are.

In my experience, if I'm having a hard time and there's nothing anyone can do in a concrete manner to help me, if someone tells me they "hope" I feel better soon, or if they say they're sending "good vibes my way," or if they tell me they'll say a "prayer" for me...it's all good and I appreciate it, so long as it's coming from a sincere place.

They're each different people, so their way of offering something positive and comforting is different.

My idea of prayer is a very nebulous, just like meditation and any personal contemplative activity. I guess that's why I don't have a problem with it as so many others do. I don't necessarily assume prayer involves petitioning an authoritative figurehead up in the sky somewhere.

Secondly, you raise an EXCELLENT point about the recipient being aware of it in order for it to have any benefit. That makes a LOT of sense to me. I'm more focused on the KINDNESS of the gesture, and how that may comfort the recipient, not any measurable impact of the "prayer" itself.

I'll check out the links though.

Thanks. :)

It was a pleasure.

:hi:

not effect a person. That is like saying that infinity cannot be measured even though we know that it exists.

There is an implicit, sometimes explicit, claim that intercessory prayer can effect positive changes. The type of positive change that's of greatest interest in addressing the effectiveness of prayer is whether or not prayer, in and of itself, benefits the recipient of the prayer in terms of better health and welfare. Merely making the person doing the praying feel better is acknowledged to happen, but is also pretty much besides the point.

The desired result of helping others should be a measurable thing if intercessory prayer is effective, regardless of whether or not you want to consider the faith that motivates prayer is itself "immeasurable".

Infinity "exists" as a useful mathematical concept, and is not associated with any implicit or explicit claims of any expected physical manifestation one can grasp with calipers or stick in a spectrum analyzer and "measure".

You're doing worse than comparing apples and oranges, you're comparing apples and northeast.

Will you re-explain your point?

he turned prayer into a media event

'Look at me, I am going to pray and save you. Are the cameras on?, make sure you get my good side'.

of us were told we are supposed to pray privately and not make a big exhibition of it. They seem to do it for show. That is what creeps me out.

of this "praying for rain" instead of doing things as a governor that would help his state conserve water like property tax rebates for cisterns, permaculture all state properties, revamping the infrastructure so that towns don't have to drink pee water, restricting inground pools, golf courses/grass planting-- find a different kind of turf already, some restrictions on building/#residences per sq. mile so they don't overburden local resources for water, pass some laws requiring industry to cart in their own purchased water etc.

Instead he chooses to mumble a few Christian Spells.....

the Perry thing is a perfect example of using prayer as a cop-out, rather than DOING something practical to address the problem.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Especially for someone who calls themselves a hippie.

:shrug:

to turn to. At some point they will realize that their own churches have failed them. Now they have to deal with your insensitivity too?

I want people to GET the help they need, not pray for it.


You are the one that stated

"for some people, prayer is all they have between them and the insane asylum"

and my comment was that perhaps that is where they will ACTUALLY get the help they need.



Maybe it is you who are being insensitive to what people need. It is my opinion that prayer offers nothing, while professional mental health offers a new beginning.

Sometimes, the only thing that people need is a sympathetic ear. The priest not only heard the issues, but found a way to get the community to rally to help out the member of the congregation.

And sometimes, people go to shrinks for problems that involve medical malpractice or professional malfeasance. What does the shrink do? Prescribe mood altering drugs. Is that really helpful? I suppose it is, since it makes one more victim that won't fight back.

Sure, they can lend an ear, but so can you and I, being a priest isn't a requirement for that. But being a mental health professional is NOT something you, I or a priest can substitute for. Ever.


Ever.

can they really help when the problem has to do with legal problems? If prayers or pills are the only alternatives we have when someone injures us, I'll take prayers.

And if prayers or professionals are the only alternatives we have, I will take professionals, as actual results will be produced. Prayer may make some THINK things will be better, but it solves nothing and produces nothing.

very young, or don't live in Florida.

Rick Perry wants to talk to you.

Prayer doesn't solve problems in a miracle kind of way, but it helps to keep your mind clear.

And in a world where chaos reigns, that's an improvement.

:rofl:

I can understand when you attack extremism. But hippies and Liberals accept moderation in about everything. You don't seem to be exhibiting that kind of tolerance.

but I responded to YOUR original claim that there are some for whom prayer is the only obstacle between them and the insane asylum, to which I responded that perhaps if prayer was just that, the last obstacle, then a place where they can get the professional help they need just may be the best place for them.

You attempts to move the goalposts are duly noted, and rebuffed.

You don't seem to understand or respect the strength that some people derive from prayer. It's just a small acknowledgment. You can do it. Give it a try.

This should be interesting, maybe I will learn something. :popcorn:

about people who chose to pray. There hasn't been one post which you made which shows any tolerance whatsoever. That is a concern, especially for someone who calls themselves clean hippie. Instead of addressing the issue, you try to side step the issue with goalposts.

Really, why don't you address the main issue instead of running away?

is the one thing that keeps some people out of the insane asylum. :wtf:


It would seem that you are trying to obfuscate because you are no longer able to support your premise.


But nice try to shift the burden onto me, and away from you. You said it, so you support it.



Oh, and you Ad Homs are duly noted. Do try and keep your personal attacks out of this.

If you follow the thread you will note that we discussed the merits of psychiatric help. My point was that a person has the option to Take the pill to forget their troubles, or use prayer to stand and fight. It's really up to the person to decide. I would prefer prayer. That summarizes the main points.

is counseling, not drugs.

And praying is not fighting, its wishful thinking.


Does one need to pray to the christian god, or will any of them do?

extremist thoughts.

but, there are some mental-health professionals who do have legitimate degrees and things. I even knew a priest who was also an MD, a shrink, at one job I had. He did it b/c he was mad about all the poor people not getting the medical help they needed. A cool, liberal guy.

Just FYI.

But, and I'm watching a show about this now- there are people with no training who like to get into "marriage counseling" for a power trip and just want to screw, literally, one of the participants.

and I guess you giving my posts a read may be one, too, as well as the priest who is also a trained mental health professional.

That WAS an improvement over modern
psychological practices.

:sarcasm:

If I went to a counselor who told me
to pray away my problems, I'd get up
and walk out.

Like I said, soon people will realize that their churches have failed them.

I would think that you would support praying if you knew that sometimes that's what people do to find the strength to respond in a manner that you would find appropriate.

I guess not.

It's like snow for the eskimos. They have over hundred terms to define snow, because they know one word is not sufficient.

All of this confusion could have been avoided had you only heeded your own advice in your original post.

:shrug:

read to others.

I presented an alternate view. I even used the word "some people use prayer" showing that there are exceptions to his very tight rules. To which you respond that these people should seek professional help. You seem to have a very closed mind about prayer.

but that which is stated or claimed without evidence or proof, is a fools paradise.

You have offered here nothing but your myopic, and quite frankly, ignorant opinion about the efficiacy of prayer. A little education on that which you choose to pontificate may serve you better next time.

Here are some links to get you started. Enjoy.

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CEMQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.calvin.edu%2F~dav4%2FDocuments%2FPrayer.ppt&rct=j&q=efficacy%20of%20prayer&ei=7vVjTtXoIcuPsAK1sLykCg&usg=AFQjCNG8_tE4VHDz8FJcCyD7gDwOqOWD2Q&cad=rja

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/power_of_prayer/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

You're the one making the comment about the "ignorant opinion(s) about the efficacy of prayer]. Can it be more obvious? That's the kind of attitude that will lose us voters. I don't question that people like Rick Perry is abusing prayer. They have also wrapped themselves around the flag when it's convenient. Does that mean you're going to go around burning flags? See how counterproductive that is?

Prayer has no value beyond making the one praying "feel" like they are doing something. In the context of this conversation, that started with YOUR comment, its not only appropriate, its accurate.

That attitude will lose elections and voters.

And I will not pander to those that I feel are being delusional just to get votes, sorry.

To many people, the power of prayer is very real. It gives them strength, in a very natural manner. Better than herbal tea. It's why it's so easy for someone like Perry to exploit it.

But what IS real and what people THINK is real are two very different things.

And THATS why its so easy for Perry, to name one among thousands, that find it easy to exploit others.


I think we have taken this as far as it can go.

Thanks for the exchange.

:fistbump:

If someone is attempting to accomplish a goal, shouldn't that person use a method that actually works?

And my prayers were answered.

Because obviously, you need some spiritual help right now.

Instead of simply paying lip service to your ego.

Your posts are doing anything!

More people read them than hear your prayers.

So do Powdermilk Biscuits.

"Made from whole wheat raised in the rich bottomlands of the Lake Wobegon river valley by Norwegian bachelor farmers, so you know they're not only good for you, but also pure, mostly", which "give shy persons the strength to get up and do what needs to be done. Heavens, they're tasty and expeditious."

My dad is one of them (likes Palin, Beck, etc). I'm forever posting things, just trying to get him (and others like him) to think. Jesus would not be happy with all their pious BS, if they are actively trying to keep the poor and the sick from receiving help. Jesus was actually AGAINST everything they are FOR.

Crazy. I can't believe I haven't been "defriended" by them (yet).

The teabaggers have monopolized every American iconic symbol. Flags, patriotism and prayer. The left, instead of finding their niches and holding their ground with these symbols, they try to destroy them thinking they are taking a bite out of the teabaggers. (Sorry for that graphic image) But they are not. Because America does believe in flags, patriotism and prayer. Good Americans believe in that and a whole lot more.

If we want to win, we must do the impossible. We must take back these iconic figures, and show that it doesn't have to be one way or the other.

And a fallacy it is.

I won't stand in your way. However, if you're going to belong to a party that lives under a large tent, it's best that you don't accept absolutes so readily.

In one post, you deride "those people" as teabaggers, because they believe something differently than you, and in another, deride me for being an absolutist for pointing out your intolerance of those who do not think like you.


By doing so you raise the obvious question; Do you even know what it is you are talking about, or are you are just a total hypocrite?

I believe the point was that prayer w/o deeds is useless. Like those that pray for rain during drought but support the deregulation of industry polluters, or praying for hungry people rather than feeding them/supporting legislation that decreases poverty.

Many people use prayer as an escape, comfort and for healing...this is a good thing.

Prayer also often moves people to be compassionate towards and do good work for others.

There are, however, many who also use prayer as an excuse to feel better about themselves although they do nothing for others, or even actively fight against things that would actually help their fellow citizen. Unfortunately, this describes a fairly significant number of those who describe themselves as religion.

kinds of prayer, but I think the point the poster was making is that we can be more than transmitters of prayers, we can also be the "answer" to prayers. I have always found that to be a very fulfilling experience.

Wow, that was really good. May I borrow it for my Facebook?

wasn't your friend to begin with.

Kind of off topic but the thing I like least about Facebook is that people end up with "friends" they barely know. I know that's the case for my 18-year-old daughter. She has Facebook "friends" who wouldn't give her the time of day.

By implication, you are stating that a "normal atheist" (whatever that is) wouldn't find this rude or tactless.

Does your atheism control your emotions? Does it control your reactions to inflammatory statements?

I think the answer to both of those questions is "no", and I think that your ability, or even lack thereof, to find this rude and tactless is in no way predicated on your atheism.

The context of the OP's Facebook rant was tactless regardless of the beliefs of either the OP and the beliefs of the people who unfriended him.

If a religious person is having a hard time I will not criticize them for praying even though I think it's stupid. There is a propert time to argue about such things, that is not the time or place to do so.

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so is faith without works."

That was probably James' way of saying "Pray, sure. Then get up off your praying ass and DO something!"

I wonder if your 56 former friends ever read that passage...

I'm a big fan of the Apostle James. His writing is very progressive. Guess he learned it from his Boss...

That's why I think I'm in the right for following a very liberal and progressive form of Christianity a la James the brother of Jesus, as opposed to following Paul's rigid, unbending, adversarial form; promoted by a ferocious, vicious, former persecutor of Christians.

if the fundamental premise is to be believed.

but 2: 15-16 would fit better

Faith without works is dead.

but it needs to be said.

Not much Christian charity anywhere in America that I can see.

There is still a lot of charity in America, both religious and otherwise. My wife is heavily involved in Special Olympics, and I assist in some programs. I see plenty of people who volunteer to help out on their own time, unselfishly. Also, there are several churches here in Sin City that run programs to help those in need, as well as various secular organizations.

I do believe that most of the obnoxiously loud fundamentalists don't care about true Christian values. Their main objective seems to be that of being heard, and they'll do anything necessary to get attention.

I had a RL conversation over the weather, Irene et al... and people here I said was pushing my views on a fanatic who said... we need to pray for a miracle...

"Well, yes well after you get yourself ready for it."

For some reason she did not like that

Why prepare for a week without power (like I just had) when you can pray it away. I'm a faithful Christian, but I still stocked up. And then I spent the week helping neighbors through the aftermath.

If prayers and well-wishes actually amounted to something, I might not be falling down this apparently bottomless hole I was tossed into some four-plus years ago.

so many so-called friends over the post. It seems like a no-brainer to me - well said and with true urgency to do something if you can. Did you get even one negative reply because I'd really like to know what turned so many off en mass.
KnR!

would be offended by the message in the post...

if you can. Perhaps the OP's mentioning prayer did the trick. But I'm assuming he/she knows the audience as one that prays.

Goes with the territory of having a reality check thrown one's way.

Your friends roster just got a major clean-up job!

OK. I'll think for you.

Sincere question, as I definitely am mindful of those who are offended by the concept of prayer, though I'm not going to tie myself up in a knot over it.

If you are suffering and have shared that pain with another, and there is literally nothing they can do to help you (whether you've asked for help or not), what response wouldn't be offensive to you?

Is it as simple as "I hope things ease up for you"? Would "I'm thinking good thoughts that things change" be offensive?

Would complete silence in response to you sharing about your predicament not be offensive or hurtful in some way?

What if this is all about semantics and we just allow people to offer comfort however they can -- whether they choose the words prayer, wishes, hopes or whatever -- in cases when direct action isn't possible?

:shrug:

I simply express my sympathy for their situation and tell them that I hope they find a solution. Since I'm an atheist, offering prayers would be ridiculous. My hopes and sympathy are equal in value and effectiveness to any prayer that might be offered.

I'm half joking about that line, and only use it when some moron offers to pray for me as an insult. You would not believe how often offers of prayer are intended as insults. I've always found that fascinating, so I came up with "I'll think for you," as an ironic sort of way to respond to the insult.

Sincere prayer is fine with me, if its intent is to offer help for a hopeless situation. It's the same as sympathy and hope. Only when an offer of prayer is an insult is it insulting.

"My hopes and sympathy are equal in value and effectiveness to any prayer that might be offered."

And I agree that it must be sincere, regardless of what is offered, for it to be of any value.

Thanks for the reply.

:hi:

looks like Billy Graham is moderating this thread.

:eyes:

I am not sure I would have posted this missive, but whatever works for you.

I've lost "friends" like that before and actually turned out glad after the fact.

I mean, what would jesus do? :snark:

:evilgrin:

would you mind if I use it?

This country is full of them. 99% of so called christians are phonies, who support immoral wars, who won't even share food as you say, who don't even understand the basics about Christianity/Catholicism.

Including this one.

I don't unfriend anyone for something so trivial, but people who post "wise words of wisdom" more than once a month or so get on my nerves just aa little. I'm not really interested in wise sayings on facebook. I want to see their photos and read tidbits about interesting things they've done. I'm not interested in facebook philosophy.

-p

:evilgrin:

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink? And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. Ye did not. Ye only "prayed", because that was their way of saying "F.U. - Not my problem."



- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

just quote that to the "Christians" who have a problem with it.

likes of raygun, booosh and perry.

and you rarely see them face-to-face.

lost Fb "friends" over political posts I've made, and I'm glad.

The 52 Fb friends who dumped you are 52 you're probably better off without.

Christ has no hands but our hands, and faith without works is dead!!

The problem is theirs, not yours....

of those who only pray. Praying alone does not make you a good person.

You see. It's facebook. You are talking to a group. Who exactly did you think you were talking too? You may have had friends that just gave their last dollar to help someone AND prayed for them at the same time. You went out of your way to alienate a large group of people. It's not surprising.

I'll be your friend here, 'cause I ain't on FB.

you did kinda do the thing they sometimes do, of saying you know what god wants.

if you don't buy a ticket. Some people think they can pray their problems away without doing anything else. In Church I once told someone that he first needed to get off his ass and try to cure his problems himself them God might help him.

it's kind of like computers and cell phones. We all used to ask "Why would I need one?", but now we all have one. Recently I got a rather large (for me) Facebook friends request, mainly because someone from the redneck town where I went to high school started recommending me as a friend to all his Facebook friends. I accepted a few (most of whose names I did not recognize), then posted a status update for the newcomers informing them that I'm an atheist and far to the left politically and that if they were uncomfortable with that they could immediately unfriend me and I wouldn't take it personally, but if they decided to stay they did so at their own risks because I'm pretty outspoken and don't pull any punches when I go off on the right or on church goers. So far none have left, but I'm sure I'll lose a few before it's over. I really do say what I think, and I don't care who does or doesn't like it.

To help others.

Another way to put it is... what if WE are the answers to somebody else's prayers? What if God has sent US to help those in need whom we encounter?

The very valid idea you put forth in your OP is NOT contrary to Christianity at all. It even works within the idea that prayer is a powerful tool. Weird, then, that so many took offense.

=======================

...and then run as fast as you can.

I still haven't figured out if I'm an atheist or an agnostic, but I've always liked this saying.

I believe in the power of prayer insomuch as I believe in the power of visualization, affirmation and meditation. But without action, it is not very meaningful.

On a side note, however, I do find it to be worthwhile to check my spelling, punctuation and grammar when I am trying to make an important point.

to my attention. I'm on it and will fix it as soon as I possibly can. (or: I'm on it and will enlist the help of others I know so we can fix it as soon as humanly possible.)

I've always thought that prayer should be a "thank you" as much as a request.

I anyone puts that much effort into removing themselves, they don't spend their time very well. Perhaps they should observe.... it should be obvious that's what Jesus would do...

that there even IS a god who cares whether you actually do a good deed, or just sit there and pray for it to happen. Why does everything have to be motivated by what "god" wants? Are people incapable of simply figuring out what the right thing is, and then doing it, without supernatural guidance?

They need "holy books", religious dogma, spiritual leaders and the like to teach them right from wrong. If they didn't have them, they claim, they'd be serial killers or something. They'd have nothing to stop them from raping, murdering, stealing and the like.

Ironic that they claim to be our moral superiors, eh?

Oh, wait ... :think:

and freedom. We each decide what we do with all of these gifts.

Post on Monday that you are moving on Saturday and could use a hand.

The two people that show up, they're your friends.

:sarcasm:

...so we could start building a fresh new stack of sins.

A Russian proverb that I try to live by. It means, basically, that prayer is nice, but do the footwork anyway.

I find myself wanting to
pray for your Friends....

what my Lutheran religion says about how God helps others. At the moment I cannot remember which theologian wrote the book (I think it was CFW Walther) with this in it but what he said is that when prayers reach up to God He gives the answer through someone who acts on the need. It is seen as the way that He uses his church on earth to answer prayers.

For instance when my daughter needed a certain type of surgery and all her primary doctors were against it He gave us a brilliant doctor who understood the problem and was not afraid of all the hype by the other doctors. She was so much better after the surgery that my primary doctors and the social workers who had also been against it started recommending the surgery and referring people to me as an advocate.

The problem is that even very few Lutherans know about this interpretation. It is in books that are read in college and then maybe not even by all the students. IMO it should be required reading for all christians. Of course Lutherans are not usually considered rwers today even when their churches are conservative because we also do not believe in mixing church and state so the rwers would not accept this even from us.

There is also to verse that tells us that He did not give to us to comfort us but that we could comfort others. That should also put an end to the rwer ideal of greed trumping all.

IMO you did not lose much when these idiots unfriended you. They are the ones who lost a good friend.

to justify belief in god in a world that looks no different than we would expect if there were no god.

On what basis does this theologian determine that his claim about how "god" answers prayers is any more correct than anyone else's?

to examine and criticize claims of any sort. Your "belief" does not get a free pass in that regard because it is a matter of "faith". If you don't want to have your position criticized, then don't make pronouncements about it on a public discussion board.

Now answer MY question: On what basis does this theologian determine that his claim about how "god" answers prayers is any more correct than anyone else's?

are used to determine this. Number one on the list is that the Bible interprets itself - in other words he looked for clues in the Bible to see what it meant. He is merely saying what he has interpreted the Bible to say. I think that is his right?

I do not see where I said that my faith was any more important than anyone else's. Faith is a personal matter. I was talking with other people of faith on this post about these belief. I feel that what you posted is a personal attack on me. We have freedom of religion in this country of ours - thus I do not interfer with what you believe. I accept the fact that you have the right to your thoughts just like I do. I was not attacking anyones belief in anything I said merely agreeing with the poster that in my church we think like he/she does.

Why is it that every time anyone speaks about their faith on DU it only takes a few moments before they are under attack?