If I tell a Christian I am an Atheist, 7 times out of 10 they see red

Sometimes they don't and respect my non-belief. Cool.

But very often they get mad, start huffing - and DUers are not exempt from this rage - and feel as if I just kicked their puppies with steel toed boots.

My question is why?

Why so angry?

But if they are so confident of their God and their faith, why are they so easily threatened by what one of God's creatures thinks? Isn't God big enough to handle it?

When people are truly secure in their belief system it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks...

When you harbor doubts...even if they are suppressed... you will tend to overcompensate by lashing out harshly...

Here's the answer:

To certain religionists (any religion), they believe they alone have THE ANSWER. That should make them happy and secure. But it doesn't. It isn't enough that they are fulfilled (if at all). They won't be happy until everyone who holds different beliefs, creeds has changed to their "Truth". And the reason for that is they're insulted that your "Truth" is as valid as theirs. There is one Truth and it's theirs. If their Truth makes everything "perfect" and answers all imponderables, there is no other truth. Other beliefs threaten them with competition and they fight to be supreme. And that is what propels them to attack, especially if you don't believe in God to begin with. (Not to mention, "Others" have been labeled as "evil" and lay the road work to Hell. They are perpetually "at war" with Evil.)

ha

honestly, I don't know many Christians that act like that when people might randomly say they're atheist, Jewish, Muslim, etc... Most people from what I recall just change the subject, or say something non-confrontational. Maybe you're just unfortunate, because 70% of people getting beat red angry and showing rage you state seems awfully high.

I accept people for whatever they believe, and just pray for everyone to share in the positive aspects of the faith I have in Christ (His teaching to care for the homeless and having charity, friendly to all, not judging). And I rarely have ever seen someone turn red with rage on DU. I have seen open mocking of 'sky fairies' and 'flying spaghetti monster' being used as taunts. I have never seen anyone mock an atheist, and I wouldn't stand for it, anyhow.


http://www.zazzle.com/republicans_2012_keeping_millions_out_of_work_bumper_sticker-128002960205017719

and knowing there are people who deny this deep seated belief is very threatening to them. One thing irrational belief demands is consensus and anyone outside that consensus is seen as an immediate threat.

In short, they think you're trying to take their Binky away.

It's what keeps most of us in that "I'm just not religious" closet. It helps them feel safe and saves us a lot of grief.

We all have them. They are just expressed differently.

and certainly none for which I've ever found consensus.

It is also important to consider that we are often influenced by these beliefs without knowing
it. Self-honesty and self-discovery are so important in our journey through life. Your honesty
and self-understanding are admirable.

I would fall in the 3. I believe in spreading the gospel, but I'm not going to beat someone over the head if they don't want to hear it.

Just kidding. I don't really know the reason. They may be conservatives who are already mad about carbon dating, plate tectonics, the speed of light, evolution, Pi, etc.

Doesn't bother me a bit. You've got just as much right to be an atheist as I do to be a Christian. And I hope I am wise enough not to let something like that prevent me from enjoying people who may be of any different faith that I am.

and cognitive dissonance set off by your contradicting their shaky beliefs.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

Look, Taverner, you know I'm agnostic, but your posts always seem so angry. I respect your atheistic beliefs, but you seem not so much to be an atheist as a militant anti-religionist. That is certainly your choice and I can (and do) acknowledge that you may well have good reasons for feeling that way.

But, the truth is that your anger comes through loud and clear. It may well be that 7/10 pick up on that and are responding to that, rather than your embrace of atheism. :shrug:

edited for a typo...

:P

Religious beliefs are the most closely held beliefs that most people hold. Many are willing to kill and
die for these beliefs. This has been true for a long time.

We are fortunate to live in a culture and at at a time when we can speak freely about our own
beliefs without greater fear of retribution other than personal anger. In the past, you would have
burned. Be grateful for the responses that you receive. And let it be.

I had Catholic education all the way through undergrad (Jesuits). I have found among my former classmates, now in their 60's, as well as family members and other friends, three groups when it comes to religious beliefs: (1) the agnostics/atheists, (2) the pragmatists, and (3)the true believers.

Those in the first group live their lives according to their personal moral standards, values & beliefs (whether good or evil) - not out of a fear of "hell" or the hope of "heaven", but out of personal conviction. We (for I am among the group) believe we have one life on this earth, and no guarantee or expectation of what happens at death. We may or may not hold ourselves accountable.

Some of my classmates are pragmatists - they do not literally believe in the theology they were taught in school, but they selectively follow some practices/teachings of the Church because it gives them some spiritual comfort and a sense of belonging to a group. They are the cafeteria Catholics - practicing situational ethics as they feel appropriate. They feel free to be pro-choice, euthanasia, divorce and birth control but still go to church, take communion, have their kids baptized.

The true believers take everything the Church has ever taught them literally. There IS a hell, where people suffer eternal torture of being burned. They hope to have a literal physical mansion in heaven. If widowed, they will not remarry, because they plan to be reunited with their deceased spouse in the hereafter. If divorced, they go to great expense and effort to get an annulment so they can date again. They still do not eat meat on Friday. The women still cover their heads with scarfs, etc., in church. They mindlessly say the rosary, and buy masses for the departed in hopes of paying their way out of purgatory.

In answer to your question, I think it's only the true believers who are angered by atheism.
If they're smart and well-educated, it takes tremendous intellectual effort for them to block out and deny the true history of the Catholic church: uncomfortable discoveries like the Dead Sea scrolls, which showed that the Essenes rewrote the gospels so that there were no pesky contradictions. What's happened to all the angels? Why did corrupt and venal Popes not only have illegitimate children, but make their own sons Cardinals? I've taken art history classes with a group of people over age 55. You can't study the Middle Ages or the Renaissance without learning a lot of scandalous facts about the Church during that time period - facts which were never remotely referred to in university level European history, as taught by the Jesuits. The rest of the class is laughing at the instructor's droll comments about the popes' mistresses, children, etc., but the true believers are angry & devastated.

The other group of true believers aren't educated enough to have encountered unpleasant historical truths. They are angry because they see atheists as agents of the devil, attacking their Savior. They're not equipped to present any intellectual or reasoned debate with any atheist - they just hate anyone who challenges their belief system.

I think if anyone truly had "the gift of faith" as the nuns used to call it, they would not get angry at atheists, or verbally attack them - they would try to convert them, or simply ignore them. That's what Jesus (whom I admire and respect as a prophet) would have done.

If they can't take the heat...

"Mocking the mockable" is no more defensible a behavior than those who act to "Save the Unsavable".

"Mocking the mockable", as you state, implies a judgment has been made that those who believe in a higher being are somewhat inferior to you and not as intelligent - and are worthy of a ridicule. (Judgmental behaviors which you purport to be annoyed by when believers state their beliefs to you and piss you off.)

:shrug:

Flat Earthers - surely you find them mockable

Creationists - same same

Those who pray rather than solve - I don't care what you say, praying is not solving

Those who look back rather than forward - QED

--------------------

I have no problem with religion. But if you fall into any of the above categories, you deserve mocking

one's beliefs is important, I rarely ever mention my atheism. If asked directly, I'll confirm that I'm an atheist, but I never volunteer that information in social settings. If there's a religious discussion going on, I find a more interesting conversation.

I don't care what religion people follow or don't follow. My only concern with people not in my immediate family is behavior. I will counter racism, sexism, and other toxic isms, but I have never felt the need to inform others of my disbelief. I can't see the utility in it.

Maybe you need to give a little kindly advice to taverner.

Just like Christians (both conservative and liberal) do... NOT!

Christians, Muslims, Conservative Jews and Buddhists make no secret of what they believe. Christians even hang those 'T's around their necks. :P

But seriously, I am PROUD of my non belief. It took me a long time to get there, and when I did, I knew I was where I was supposed to be.

I've described what I've decided. My atheism is my own deal. The beliefs of others are their deal. If they bug me about it, I'll just walk off. I'm good at that. I've never believed that I can, or should, convince anyone of anything regarding religion.

He likes to make his own decisions, part of the reason he left the prison of religion

anything regarding religion. I'm an atheist. That's what I am. What others are is their concern, not mine.

I can't imagine a setting where I would walk up to someone and announce my beliefs or lack there of.
I'll wager if you walked into a biker bar and proclaimed that you hate Harleys you might provoke an even stronger reaction.

Try it sometime and get back to me.

:rofl:

what I think of theism, particularly Christianity.

Better than I not open my mouth. I don't have any wisdom to offer them, and even if I did, they wouldn't accept it.

Christians, generally, feel very threatened by non-believers. They want the world to be all neat and orderly, for everyone else to agree with their views, and they are so fuzzy in their thinking that they think that being "nice" is part of their Christian religion, exclusively! They MIGHT admit that there are some nice Jews, and even a few "nice" Muslims, but that's as far as they are willing to go. Christians equate to being nice, particularly Protestant Christians, Catholics, (according to these Protestants) are "unpredictable", "nice" or "not nice".

into the mind of christians?

The last thing many of us want to hear is that you love war and hate Gays.

believers hold an underlying, unexpressed, and unacknowledged conviction that the validity of their belief system depends on many others believing the same way. In other words, their beliefs are true if and only if everybody else (everybody else they come into contact with) believes the same way. I think these people also are afraid that atheism (of Catholicism or Judaism or any other belief system not their own) could be catching, and just listening to someone else NOT affirming their beliefs is extremely scary and threatening.

I've never suffered a single negative consequence for my atheism. Not even so much as a dirty look. Of course I'm always respectful about it too - I don't judge other people for their beliefs and I've found that most of the time believers will give me that same respect.

Actually, I've always had something of a soft spot for devout Christians who walk the walk when it comes to being humble and kind. I had a pretty rough time socially as an adolescent and I found that the devout kids at school were almost always willing to be nice to me. Only rarely did that kindness come attached with conversion efforts and even then a polite decline always sufficed. And what surprises me about that now was that back then I could be kind of a dick about religion and I loudly advertised my atheism.

Just my own personal experience though.

When a Christian recently asked me "Do you believe in Jesus Christ as your personal savior?"

I replied "No - what kind of question is THAT????"

Maybe that's not respectful, but seriously, what kind of fucking question is that?

I guess I just try to give the impression that I'm not judging them for their beliefs. That I don't find them strange or stupid or think there is something wrong with them for believing what they do. How I do that exactly I can't say. I think it has as much to do with stuff like body language and tone than with what is actually said.

If somebody asked me that same question, I would probably just say 'No I don't' and if they wanted to discuss it further I would explain to them why I believe what I do. Saying something like 'what kind of question is that' is likely to be interpreted as hostile and that's the kind of thing I try not to do.

BTW I'm not telling you what you said was wrong either - I have my own style and I guess it works for me. How others choose to react to that kind of question is their business. Some people wouldn't appreciate that type of question solely on the grounds that it's too personal, for instance.

Take an hour and read back the last few months of r/t.

I know lots of people who are very religious (Christians, Jews, some Muslims) and none of them has attacked me for being atheist. Nor have I attached them for not being so. Atheists are not a small minority in the UK like in the USA, and religion vs atheism is not the big issue of conflict for most people. People are more likely to attack each other over lots of other things, including politics, social class, education-related issues, food choices, taste in clothes, music, and, most of all, perhaps, what football team you support!

However, there are certainly elements in the media, Parliament, and in some churches, that are aggressive about religion in ways that I don't remember being the case for a long time, and often associated with the political pro-life movement. Maybe it's just more in my backyard at the moment. This is a recent example from a writer from the Torygraph, taking her cue from Ann Widdecombe, a former right-wing Tory MP.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/cristinaodone/100103496/abortion-vote-the-fate-of-dr-evan-harris-should-be-a-warning-to-mps-who-ignore-their-christian-voters/

This is the sort of thing, that to mix my metaphors, crosses my line in the sand and makes my blood run cold. Would I notice it so much if it weren't referring to my own constituency and former MP? (and by the way getting a lot of the saga wrong, even as regards the most basic details such as the name of the current MP, who is called Blackwood not Blackman?) Probably not. Especially as, despite these sorts of rantings, the Dorries amendment was very thoroughly defeated, with over half of even the Tories voting against it. But still it is a good example of the sort of religious-right attitude that revolts me.

I suppose what leads to this sort of thing is (a) the equation of some of Christians, 'pro-lifers', and 'people of conscience' - as though those who are not Christians, and/or are pro-choice, don't have consciences; (b) the attitude, uncommon in most churches in England, but present in a few (and probably much more frequent in the USA) that God is likely to punish entire nations for the 'immorality' and 'anti-Christian' views of individuals within them.

So this is probably what impels some people to be angry with atheists. Apart of course, from the fact that some people feel threatened or angry with *anyone* who does things differently from themselves, whether by following a different (or no) religion, eating different foods, driving a different car, or supporting a different football team!

But as I said, I've virtually never experienced anti-atheist anger on a *personal* level.

Perhaps you get 7 out of 10 where you are. Most people (Christian or not) wouldn't give a shit whether you are an atheist or not in the places where I have lived. Granted, I've travelled to places where I could see people being hostile to your position.

My boss is a devout Catholic and we love giving each other a bad time, all in fun of course. :-)

However, they know that I am not serious when I joke around, and I don't belittle their beliefs. I wouldn't stand for someone doing that to me, and I treat others' beliefs with the same respect I expect from them.

Of course, when they try to push it on me, then it's open season - time to start poking holes in their arguments!

I said that "Republicans only care about kids before they are born" and he was laughing so hard he almost fell over. :)

How dare you publicize your profane unbelief in the one true God, Murphy? Bow down and confess your sins immediately, or Murphy will cause your car to die, your bank card to get eaten by an ATM, and - worst of all - your house to become the number one target for every Jehovah's Witness within 100 miles!

Repent, Unbeliever!
:evilgrin:

1-Atheistic scientism--the ultimate hypocrisy

2-Selling the end of atheism

3-Atheism does not correlate to ethics

then you might just just start huffing that "they don't respect my non-belief."

#3 is actually correct - atheism does not yield any kind of ethical system. Christianity has given us thousands, many of which are despicable.

So what was the point you were trying to make? That mild criticism of your religion upsets you?

On the whole, people do respect my non-belief anyway, but I'm in the UK. Which is much more diverse in this respect, with much more respect for nonbelievers, far less Christian right domination, a long tradition of politicians who don't 'do God', and 2 of our 3 party leaders are atheists without serious repercussions , and there are plenty of religious people including some at high levels in the Church of England who are far more interested in economic justice than in punishing 'immorality'. For which I am grateful. Now if sectarian hostilities could be finally put to rest in Northern Ireland; if we hadn't had a Prime Minister supposedly of my preferred party who thought that God approved of him and his pal Bush invading Iraq; and currently if the political pro-life movement would stop trying to operate smear campaigns against pro-choice MPs and at the very least get the HELL out of my backyard ...then I would be even more grateful.

I am far more concerned about the activities of the Religious Right - of any religion - than about what someone says on a message-board.

The reality that consistently has atheists as the least trusted, least included, most unwelcome and least politically viable minority

Is because most of the time when I have met an atheist, they have mocked me, belittled me or downright insulted me for believing in God.

How many atheists have you met? What percentage, in your opinion, "mocked, belittled, or downright insulted" you? What exactly did they say? In what circumstances were these lines delivered?

I have seen posts saying that atheists will go to hell; that atheism is dangerous; that if you're an atheist you 'don't count'; etc.

This is what makes me angry and make posts like this

And I have never seen anything even close to that. Where can I find these attacks please? Can you specify? I HAVE seen any and all religion slammed down a hundred times.

If you haven't seen it, you're ignoring it.

'Non believers
those that deny our Creator and Savior live in a fools paradise,a way station on the road to hell.Confess and repent before it's too late.'

If you want more, I'll pm you, as we are not supposed to 'call people out' on the board.

That sort of thing has no place. Neither does the continual sarcastic blast at all religion.

And many religions have earned criticism in spades.

unless they've been deleted (& rightfully so)

dg

An even more extreme example was:

'The feeble minds of the anti-Christians,are doing more to destroy this country than all the americans enemies on this planet.So please lower your voices,stop trying to explain things you know nothing about.'


If you want more, pm me.

as should any post that calls Christians idiots, stupid, weak-minded, "needing mental crutches," etc.

dg

I'm talking about people you meet in real life; not comments on message boards.

Such as the Earth is flat, we were created by a god, or that prayer works.

(1) Get P.O.
(2) Look at you as if you had suddenly morphed into a werewolf.
(3) Try to "save" you.

:thumbsup:

In Portland and many other parts of the Pacific Northwest, being an atheist is no big deal.

Very few of the people I knew in Oregon (outside of people I knew from church or diocesan activities) had any religious affiliation. Oregon even has a Congressman (Blumenauer) who states that his religion is "none."

At the same time, nobody ever made fun of me for being religious, once they found out that I wasn't a fundamentalist or a Mormon, two of the groups that have really bought into the whole Republican-Libertarian shtick.

Now if you live in the South or the rural or suburban Midwest, I can see where you'd have problems.

They hear about you... you ATHEISTS! They hear about you in church and on TV. Bill'O tells them you are morally bankrupt. Beck tells them you are akin to Hitler, their pastor tells them you are the ones that killed Jebus. They hear about you and you are demonized so much that when you finally meet them and say:

"Me? no thanks, I'm an Atheist."

It no longer means: "I am someone who has chosen for whatever reason to disbelieve."

It speaks directly to their conditioning and instead they hear: "Me?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA! I laugh at your god while I wallow in sin! YES DELICIOUS SIN!!!!! I adore Hitler and hate your face and I'd eat your babies if you forget to say your prayers tonight! I killed your god and I'd do it again WITH MY OWN HANDS If I COULD!"

Now you can see why they "see red"

It's not different than any other such conditioning you can find all over the planet. Take for instance any two groups where one is conditioned to hate. The post above shouting INFIDEL is a great example, or any region where one people are constantly told how they must hate the other, where one is constantly demonized and characterized. It's as old as humanity, the science of programming humans to hate on command.

Certainly I've come across anger, as well as disbelief, jokes and faux-pity evangelism. But the most common response seems ro be curiosity (with admittedly in many cases a desire to evangelize a bit). Other than 4 years in NY state I've lived most of my adult life in Midwestern states, from very religious Nebraska to middle of the road Minnesota, but even there few believers had met, knowingly, open atheists before. We need to be more open when our safety and livelihoods permit it (in the former case my 280lb weightlifter frame helps - but I don't too often get the vibe I would face much physical risk anyway - I don't mix much with that kind of crowd).