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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:34 PM
Original message
Religions and cults;
the differences between. Explain and discuss.
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AllegroRondo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Cults require you to give up all free will
Religions just require you to give up most of it.

:)
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. .
Funny person! :7 Now, seriously ...
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Neocondriac Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. Religions qualify for tax exemptions...?????
that's about it !
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Also...
Some religions will sue you into oblivion if you suggest that they're cults, but almost no cults will object if you suggest that they're religions.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. Cults are religions that began within the last century or two n/t
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. Cults are smaller. Don't have as much power.
If a cult gets big and powerful enough, it can become a religion.

Sociology texts generally discuss cults and religions. There are 2 other categories of religious organizations, but I can't remember them.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. this is the best definition of cult
A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cult

There are other definitions, of course, but this sums it up.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. I just wondered how some of the religious folks
would explain the differences ... just curious ...
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I've read books about cults
written by Christian fundamentalists. They usually put any and all kind of Eastern religion down as a cult in these books, plus Unitarianism and Unity. Their criteria is that the beliefs of these groups is different from fundamentalist Christianity.

I'm always disappointed if my Sufi Order isn't included in books like this. :)
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. How do you read those books?
I become either extremely angry or positively disgusted if I read anything like that (if I read a history book that gives the smallest amount of credibility to the Aryan Invasion Theory, I just throw it down). How do you read such filth without going crazy?
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. Religion = your beliefs, Cult = someone else's beliefs
That's my observation of how most people view the difference.

;-)

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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. LOL, I was going to say the same exact thing. n/t
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I agree, that is how most people
view the differences. I have a different take, of course ... :evilgrin:
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Midwest_Doc Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Well put!! n/t
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Sequoia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. The Age of Reason, by Tom Paine
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. ?
Summarize, please.
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Sequoia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Tid bit here:
While in prison Tom Paine worked on book on the subject of religion. Age of Reason was published soon after his release and caused a tremendous impact because it questioned the truth of Christianity. Paine criticised the Old Testament for being untrue and immoral and claimed that the Gospels contained inaccuracies and contradictions.

In 1802 Paine moved back to America but the Age of Reason had upset a large number of people and he discovered that he had lost the popularity he had enjoyed during the War of Independence. Unable to return to Britain, Paine remained in America until his death in New York on 8th June 1809. By the time he had died, over 1,500,000 copies of The Rights of Man had been sold in Europe.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRpaine.htm

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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Thanks! nt.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. religions can become cults
the core teachings of religions are the same, and all work with helping the individual improve him/herself and with helping individuals develop a tolerant, compassionate relationship with others.

Cults usually are based upon one personality, whose words are taken as from God. Followers are not encouraged to develop themselves either spiritually or socially, but rather to follow the religious dogma. Usually cults are developed to benefit the leadership and not for the leadership to help the members.

Cults usually come out of a specific religion. Jim Jones and his church came from Christianity, as did Rev. Moon. Wahhabism could be considered a cult, though I am not aware of specific imams who are considered leaders; the leaders we hear about are political, like Osama.

Others may have different beliefs on the difference between religion and cult. These are simply my opinions.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
17. Advanced Bonewitz Cult Danger Evaluation Frame
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 03:18 PM by TechBear_Seattle
Also known as ABCDEF, because it should be as basic as the alphabet. It was devised by neo-Pagan scholar and author, Issac Bonewitz.

http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

Events in the last several decades have clearly indicated just how dangerous some religious and secular groups (usually called “cults” by those opposed to them) can be to their own members as well as to anyone else whom they can influence. “Brainwashing,” beatings, child abuse, rapes, murders, mass suicides, military drilling and gunrunning, meddling in civil governments, international terrorism, and other crimes have been charged against leaders and members of many groups, and in far too many cases those accusations have been correct. None of this has been very surprising to historians of religion or to other scholars of what are usually labled “new” religions (no matter how old they may be in their cultures of origin). Minority groups, especially religious ones, are often accused of crimes by members of the current majority. In many ways, for example, the “Mormons” were the “Moonies” of the 19th century — at least in terms of being an unusual minority belief system that many found “shocking” at the time — and the members of the Unification Church could be just as “respectable” a hundred years from now as the Latter Day Saints are today.

Nonetheless, despite all the historical and philosophical warnings that could be issued, ordinary people faced with friends or loved ones joining an “unusual” group, or perhaps contemplating joining one themselves, need a relatively simple way to evaluate just how dangerous or harmless a given group is liable to be, without either subjecting themselves to its power or judging it solely on theological or ideological grounds (the usual method used by anti-cult groups).

In 1979 I constructed an evaluation tool which I now call the “Advanced Bonewits’ Cult Danger Evaluation Frame” or the “ABCDEF” (because evaluating these groups should be elementary). A copy was included in that year’s revised edition of my book, Real Magic. I realize its shortcomings, but feel that it can be effectively used to separate harmless groups from the merely unusual-to-the-observer ones. Feedback from those attempting to use the system has always been appreciated. Indirect feedback, in terms of the number of places on and off the Net this ABCDEF has shown up, has been mostly favorable. For example, it was chosen by and is now displayed on the website of the Institute for Social Inventions, who paraphrased it for their “Best Ideas — A compendium of social innovations” listing.

The purpose of this evaluation tool is to help both amateur and professional observers, including current or would-be members, of various organizations (including religious, occult, psychological or political groups) to determine just how dangerous a given group is liable to be, in comparison with other groups, to the physical and mental health of its members and of other people subject to its influence. It cannot speak to the “spiritual dangers,” if any, that might be involved, for the simple reason that one person’s path to enlightenment or “salvation” is often viewed by another as a path to ignorance or “damnation.”

As a general rule, the higher the numerical total scored by a given group (the further to the right of the scale), the more dangerous it is likely to be. Though it is obvious that many of the scales in the frame are subjective, it is still possible to make practical judgments using it, at least of the “is this group more dangerous than that one?” sort. This is if all numerical assignments are based on accurate and unbiased observation of actual behavior by the groups and their top levels of leadership (as distinct from official pronouncements). This means that you need to pay attention to what the secondary and tertiary leaders are saying and doing, as much (or more so) than the central leadership — after all, “plausible deniability” is not a recent historical invention.

This tool can be used by parents, reporters, law enforcement agents, social scientists and others interested in evaluating the actual dangers presented by a given group or movement. Obviously, different observers will achieve differing degrees of precision, depending upon the sophistication of their numerical assignments on each scale. However, if the same observers use the same methods of scoring and weighting each scale, their comparisons of relative danger or harmlessness between groups will be reasonably valid, at least for their own purposes. People who cannot, on the other hand, view competing belief systems as ever having possible spiritual value to anyone, will find the ABCDEF annoyingly useless for promoting their theological agendas. Worse, these members of the Religious Reich and their fellow theocrats will find that their own organizations (and quite a few large mainstream churches) are far more “cult-like” than many of the minority belief systems they so bitterly oppose.

It should be pointed out that the ABCDEF is founded upon both modern psychological theories about mental health and personal growth, and my many years of participant observation and historical research into minority belief systems. Those who believe that relativism and anarchy are as dangerous to mental health as absolutism and authoritarianism, could (I suppose) count groups with total scores nearing either extreme (high or low) as being equally hazardous. As far as dangers to physical well-being are concerned, however, both historical records and current events clearly indicate the direction in which the greatest threats lie. This is especially so since the low-scoring groups usually seem to have survival and growth rates so small that they seldom develop the abilities to commit large scale atrocities even had they the philosophical or political inclinations to do so.


Use the link to view the framework itself.
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catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. Definitions
Religion~
1. a) Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b) A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Cult~
1. a) A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b) The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5. a) Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b) The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

These should probably help.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. Cults are centered on a charismatic leader who has
absolute power over the followers, who seem to lose all free will. The teaching of the cult is whatever the leader says it is, even if the teaching changes from one day to the next.

They tend to be very homogeneous, with little tolerance for dissenting thought or practice.

I know that some will say that all religions are like that, but it simply isn't true. Even the Catholic church (in practice, although not officially) allows quite a bit of leeway, and the number of Catholics who would drink cyannide-spiked Kool Aid or have a shoot-out with the Feds if the pope demanded it is very small, if not non-existent.

You can also find non-religious cults, as in some political splinter groups, or even on a massive scale, as in Maoist China.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
23. It all depends what happens when you question authority...
First of all are you even allowed to question authority? Are you punished if you do? Is dissent silenced? How is dissent silenced?

The church I've belonged to for almost twenty years officially opposes the death penalty, abortion, birth control, and gay marriage.

Birth control is a sensitive topic within our church. Nobody talks about it. It seems to be an official policy of "Don't ask, don't tell, but here's a pamphlet on Natural Family Planning, and we have meetings on Thursday."

The anti-abortion activists in our church generally make people very uncomfortable. The anti-death penalty activists make a much smaller group of people very uncomfortable.

The issue of gay marriage makes rare appearances in our church; usually when there is some legislation pending. It's not an issue church authorities use to "stir the pot."

I have strong opinions about all these issues, and except for the issue of abortion, I am very outspoken.

  • I am against the death penalty. I am not likely ever to change my mind.

  • This may be the first time I've mentioned it here on DU, but I am against abortion. This probably doesn't mean what you think it means. I am certain abortion must remain safe and legal or we will make things much, much worse, in our secular society. (I also voted against the recent parental notification initiative in California for similar reasons.)

  • If human beings don't practice birth control, the earth will die, and many people will die. It is as simple as that. The earth is dying now because there are too many people.

  • My greatest difference with church authority is that I am a fierce supporter of gay marriage. I have written newspaper letters and opinion pieces about this, I have spoken and corresponded with our Priests and Bishop about this, and I am very quick to let anyone know where I stand on this issue.


If I was the member of a cult, I would be in some pretty deep shit with my church. I'd probably be chained in the basement and eating cockroaches. Instead I am welcomed there. I am a repected member of the community, and the dialog remains open.

Many churches would be less accepting of such open dissent, but even then, if the separation was gentle, if it was more a matter of church leaders saying "I don't know why you come here, why don't you find another church" and less a matter of locking you out of your community, alienating you from your family, or threatening you with eternal damnation, then the gentle church is not a cult.

Boil it all down, and I think that you can say that institutions that demonstrate their respect for an individual's free will are not cults.
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
24. The sociological definition
Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 02:46 PM by salvorhardin
would be a fragmentary religious group lacking in permanent structure or any religious group with practices and teachings outside the dominant cultural and religious traditions of a society.

I also had a philosophy professor who defined a cult as any religious organization that you aren't indoctrinated into by your parents. He was a bit of a strict Catholic though. :-)
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. "Strict Catholic", eh?
The irony is that as used by ancient Christians (Catholic and Orthodox, primarily), "cult" is used to describe the culture of veneration for a particular saint or relic. Thus, it is entirely appropriate to speak of the cults of St. Francis, Padre Pio or the Shroud of Turin.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Yes, the evolution of the word "cult" is interesting...
The popular use is now evocative of Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Marshall Applewhite.

On DU the label "cult" is commonly extended to Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Fundamentalists, and Catholics who see the Virgin Mary under freeway overpasses.

Lately my favorite cult is the cult of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

In many nations the cult of matcom's ass is banned.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. And before them Cults of Isis and Dionysus, as well...
as many other Gods as well.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
28. Cult: Church down the street from yours...
I think that definition comes from the BC comics, though don't quote me on that.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
29. Interesting
It's not a formalised distinction, I think, but the words definately do have different uses - one wouldn't call Christianity or Islam a cult unless one was actively trying to cause offence, whereas one could legitimately refer to breatharianism or Heaven's Gate as such, and there are things like Scientology and the Moonies in the middle ground.

Some pointers :

:- Religions tend to be large, cults tend to be small (but vide
Judaism as a counterexample)

:- The word "cult" has overtones of secretiveness.

:- If it is based around a living charismatic leader and demands
considerable personal obedience to them (especially if they're
attributed supernatural powers) it's more likely to be a cult.

:- If it is based on a larger religion but not recognised or
supported by it it's probably a cult.

:- People tend to refer to things they view as respectable as
religions and things they don't as cults. There's generally a
fair degree of consensus on this, because respectable
means "I think most people approve of it", not "I approve of
it", making it less subjective than it sounds.

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