Has anyone read Kreeft/Tacelli Handbook of Christian Apologetics?

Or Scaling the Secular City: A Defense of Christianity by J. P. Moreland.

I saw the reviews at Amazon and they looked interesting.

An interesting quick read is the atheist/believer debate recorded at
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p68.htm

In any case, this thread is just a request for reading suggestions on the topic.

:toast:

:-)

Is a very good start.

I also highly recommend:

preacher turned atheist Dan Barker's "Losing Faith in Faith";

Sam Harris' The End of Faith

George H. Smith's "Atheism: The Case Against God"

everything by Robert G. Ingersoll

Joseph Wheeles' "Is It God's Word" and "Forgery in Christianity"

and if you are not much of a reader, Brian Flemming's well produced, informative and highly entertaining DVD, "The God Who Wasn't There".

time with poorly reasoned books.

I have found a lot of repetition of the same falacies in the atheist writings (not that anyone is copying anyone else! :-) ). Is there a solid single source?

As to "Forgery in Christianity" I'd like it if it was detailed and scientific. Usually these run to being "all early Christians were liars" and therefore it follows that.

The actual number of documents from the early years is rather limited, and I would like any comments on that limited selection (through 400AD) - but the BS you have to get through when reading books with an atheist slant is off putting.

Then again I suspect an atheist would feel the same way about the writings of the early Bishops!

:toast:

:-)

The category of "best single source" is difficult because different writings have different objectives. For some of the categories that seem most important, and the best of for those categories here are my recommendations:

Best Overall All Purpose Book: Dan Barker's "Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist".

Runner up for Best Overall All Purpose Book: Edward T. Babninsky's collection of de-conversion stories titled "Leaving the Fold: Testamonies of Former Fundamentalists". Stores from people who used to be fundamentalists but are now liberal Christians, spiritual but not Chrisitan, agnostic, and atheist. Each person tells their story and discusses what evidence was most convincing to them, and how their de-conversion unfolded.

For a rigorous, philosophical, compelling case against the existence of god: George H. Smith's "Atheism: The Case Against God" (20 years ago I started reading this book as a Christian theistic apologist and finished it a confident atheist. I recently re-read it and the arguments are as clear and compelling as ever.)

For a detailed, painstaking, lengthly case against biblical inerrancy, Joseph Wheeles' "Is it God's Word".

For a detailed, painstaking, scholarly case documenting the development of Christian stories from earlier pagan sources, Joseph Wheeles' "Forgery in Christianity"

For a more contemporary case against biblical inerrancy, C. Dennis McKinsey's "Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy".

For most enjoyable overall read, and best overall case against Christianity and the Bible, Robert G. Ingersoll's "Some Mistakes of Moses" or "About the Holy Bible" or "Gods" or "Why I Am an Agnostic"...all available online (see link in previous post.) Ingersoll's works were originally lectures, so they are very pleasent to read - very different from the usual dense, somewhat dry technical writing found on both sides.

not lose it! :-)

I really appreciate your help in getting such a list.

While the fact I have been reading such stuff for many many years leads me to believe my reading the books on this list will change nothing as to my beliefs, I do really like to follow both the current thought of the other side, and the best expressed thought by the other side. Besides I need all the background knowledge I can get because these DU threads seem to get tougher over the years (no doubt a function of both my aging and the posters here at DU actually getting better!)

I plan to start with the work of Robert G. Ingersoll and then the work of George H. Smith. This should be fun!

:-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G._Ingersoll

Per wikipedia, Ingersoll was a Peoria, Illinois lawyer - a place I have been - and had some interesting quotes/assertions:

A crime against god is a demonstrated impossibility.

A good deed is the best prayer.

Age after age, the strong have trampled upon the weak; the crafty and heartless have ensnared and enslaved the simple and innocent, and nowhere, in all the annals of mankind, has any god succored the oppressed.

Blasphemy is an epithet bestowed by superstition upon common sense.

Courage without conscience is a wild beast.

Every library is an arsenal.

The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray.

In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments - there are consequences.

I admit that reason is a small and feeble flame, a flickering torch by stumblers carried in the star-less night, blown and flared by passion's storm, and yet, it is the only light. Extinguish that, and nought remains.

Churches are becoming political organizations.... It probably will not be long until the churches will divide as sharply upon political, as upon theological questions; and when that day comes, if there are not liberals enough to hold the balance of power, this Government will be destroyed. The liberty of man is not safe in the hands of any church. Wherever the Bible and sword are in partnership, man is a slave. All laws for the purpose of making man worship God, are born of the same spirit that kindled the fires of the auto da fe, and lovingly built the dungeons of the Inquisition.

All laws defining and punishing blasphemy -- making it a crime to give your honest ideas about the Bible, or to laugh at the ignorance of the ancient Jews, or to enjoy yourself on the Sabbath, or to give your opinion of Jehovah, were passed by impudent bigots, and should be at once repealed by honest men. An infinite God ought to be able to protect himself, without going in partnership with State Legislatures. Certainly he ought not so to act that laws become necessary to keep him from being laughed at. No one thinks of protecting Shakespeare from ridicule, by the threat of fine and imprisonment. It strikes me that God might write a book that would not necessarily excite the laughter of his children. In fact, I think it would be safe to say that a real God could produce a work that would excite the admiration of mankind. Surely politicians could be better employed than in passing laws to protect the literary reputation of the Jewish God.

Mark Twain on Ingersoll - To Mrs. Clemens, in Hartford, 1879: "I've just come to my room, Livy darling, I guess this was the memorable night of my life. By George, I never was so stirred since I was born. I heard by that splendid old soul, Col. Bob Ingersoll,--oh, it was just the supremest combination of English words that was ever put together since the world began."

Ingersoll was exceptionally famous in his time, and constantly packed the houses where he gave his lectures. If the clergy spoke out and tried to ban him - the audiences were standing room only.

Works of Robert G. Ingersoll - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.html

Ingersoll had open-letter debates with some of the most respected theologians and apologists of his time. Some of his opponents are brutish and nasty; some of them show great admiration and respect for him despite his outspoken criticism of Christianity. The debates are not the most widely known of Ingersoll's works, but for an honest Christian, or someone who wants to hear both sides making arguments and answering arguments, they are unique and enjoyable.

The Ingersoll Debates - contributions from Robert G. Ingersoll, Dr. Henry Field, and Jeremiah S. Black
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/debate/index.shtml