"Jewish" = 'race' or religion?

My mother is "Jewish" (really an agnostic -- well, really a terrified atheist -- observes 0% of Jewish traditions).

My father is "Roman Catholic" (really an atheist, hasn't been to a church service in, like, 50 years).

I was guilt-tripped into a Bar-Mitzvah, made my $$ and got out of the business. I fully realize that in the eyes of the Jewish community I am "Jewish" because my mother is "Jewish".

However, I do not believe in God, and therefore do not consider myself "Jewish" at all (God being a central part of that whole Judeo-Christian thing).

So, when someone asks me what I "am", ethnicity-wise, I respond "half Italian and half Russian". People who know me better sometimes chime in "I thought you were Jewish?"

That's my question. If one is "Jewish" does that describe his/her religion or "race". To me, it's a religion that does not apply to me. But others want to force it on me because it's apparently more than that.

I bring this up because the other day I was walking down my street in Brooklyn when a school bus pulled up along side and an 11-year old kid shouted "Fuck you you fucking Jew fuck!" (I think it was my beard and our proximity to Crown Heights)

My reaction surprised me -- I yelled "Excuse me, kid? First off, I'm not Jewish, second you shouldn't...!" (Then I realized I was shouting at an 11 year old and stopped. I'm 30.) It surprised me that I wasn't personally offended in the least.

Opinions? Insight?

Were you circumcised by a rabbi?

Sarcasm, come on in! It is a religion, duh! :)

Of course, not everybody really thinks through the difference between the two. Much of the ideas that would associate Judaism with race is left-over programming from previous eras in history passed down from generation to generation. Most of the time, it is innocuous and not intentionally malevolent, but that is not true in all cases. (See National Socialists and American Neo-Nazis and other far right groups)

Arabs and Jews have both semetic origins, but Judiasm is a religtion, while most Arabs are Muslims which is also a religion

Both religions are centered from the same patriarch, Abraham, but splits off from there

I mean, if Arabs (race) are Muslim (religion) then Jews (race?) are Jewish (religion).

I feel,too, that it is solely a religion, but this issue has been in my mind for years because most people talk about Jews as a racial group here in NYC.

In NYC you have the orthodox hassidic folks in crown heights who go out of their way to look and act different, to be separate. They function essentially as a tribe. However there are jews all over new york who simply do not share in any of that nonsense - are they part of the same tribe? I grew up in new york and as my mom was ethnic jewish - I am part ethnic jew, but I sure as heck did not think of myself as in any way related to the hassidic folks. (Of course I also did not think of myself as 'jewish' and still don't.) I agree that it is just a confusing term and essentially meaningless outside of the religious and cultural traditions. To me a jew is anyone who answers the question 'are you jewish?' with 'yes'.

who answers the question 'are you jewish?' with 'yes'." You and Maimonides, too! ;-)

Some Jews are not religious so for secular Jews, it's about cultural or ethnic identity.

Jews are clearly not a race:

http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm

Are Jews a Race?
In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect.

But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin.

But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race.

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can't change your race; it's in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to.

Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).

genetic links among jews, its part of the reason why those who came from eastern europe have to be careful of tay sacks disease (a genetic disorder)
but you can convert and become a jew (see sammy davis jr and rod carew)

Jews are Semites, and so are Arabs, Aramaeans, and Ethiopians. In a biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Noah's eldest son. The most prominate semites today are Arabs and Jews.

"look". i've been mistaken for jewish, but i've also been mistaken for turkish. it's funny. my background is german/irish.

My dad was Irish and he was dark as are three of my siblings. I have more olive colored skin. I have a sister who we jokingly call Casper because she is white, white, white as are her kids (no suntans for them).

blue eyed like my grandmother. my father who's heritage is german was dark -- dark hair, dark eyes, dark skin (like his mother). i'm more like him in my looks, but my younger sister is so dark that people think she's part african american. and my youngest sister has dark hair, but lighter skin like my mom.

so now i've told you my family history. LOL

I guess any religion could consider itself a "race" if it wanted to.
Like generations of Irish Catholics could claim to be from the Irish Catholic Race.

It's a great question you raise.

As were Italians and Russians. But now they have assimilated into Whiteness.

Perhaps that's the answer. Maybe for socio-politcal-religious reasons Jews have maintained their separateness?

I need to talk to some of my Jewish friends about this!

your question would already be answered

in a predominantly jewish neighborhood (forest hills). i don't know if it's a look -- i'm not jewish, but have been mistaken for being jewish. i had an experience similar to yours. many years back i was in a club and i was hanging around with some black guys. well this man comes over and says to me "i feel sorry for you". i said "what" he said "you attractive jewish girls who go out with niggers". of course i went on a rant saying "first of all i'm not jewish yadda, yadda, yadda." when i told the guys i was with they were not even upset. i was so pissed.

on edit: i was raised catholic as were my 2 sisters. one of my sisters converted to judiasm in her 40s. by the way she also posts on DU. if she sees this thread i'm sure she'll reply.

but to me it is either, and or both. It certainly is a race, however much watered down. Or maybe race is too strong: an ethnicity? I don't know the actual definition of race. And obviously it is also a religion. Now, personally, if I were Jewish I would be so proud of the ethnicity I'd self-identify as Jewish. When you think of all the years Jews have been scattered across the globe, to be able to still claim commonality..it is amazing. Particularly after the Holocaust.

On the other hand, living so close to Crown Heights you certainly see a lot of folks who are "real Jews" and I can see how you would look at yourself and think..no.

But you know what? You are whatever you want you should be!

it's pretty much whatever those involved want it to be

ethnicity

religion

even nationality

:evilgrin:

I read somewhere that DNA tests made between Palestinians and Jews (as a group) show no significant difference.

But there is alwas the definition of "race". Italians are not a "race" neither are Russians. Sounds to me that you are an American with European origins.

a choice of living according to the customs and traditions of that ethnic group and/or religion.

Both my parents were Jewish (Mom actually a third generation atheist). I know my grandparents came from Germany, Lithuania, and White Russian, but I don't consider myself to be of those ethnic groups as Jews were segregated and not part of the majority culture of those countries, thereby making them the proverbial, if not literal, "wandering Jews". Which leaves me as being "Jewish" as an ethnic group identification regardless of whether I observe the Sabbath or eat pork, etc. I also think of being "Jewish" as a state of mind. I let out with a Yiddish idiom every now and then and like a good hot pastrami sandwich. But I still don't feel "Jewish" in the sense of identifying with observant Jews who use that identification in their political leanings (Israel is always right), feelings of victimization (these are generalizations, please!), etc.

I once got into an argument with a lubavitcher Rabbi whether I was Jewish. I argued that my mother, her mother, and her grandmother were atheists. The Rabbi said the "blood line" was still valid as my great, great grandmother was Jewish. So, there you are, I'm Jewish by someone's definition.

Lots to think about there. I've never heard the term "White Russian" as contrasted with "Russian Jew".

In the past, Belarus, aka Belorussia, was also known as "White Russia". It's not a race.

In short, it is a tribal identity.

--IMM

they can put in their database.

So we could all end up Mormon once we are moldering in the grave!!!

..., they often mean 'Yiddish' specifically. Klezmer music, the dialect, the food -- that's all Yiddish as far as I know. Ethiopian Jews, for example, don't share any of those things.

I have a similar heritage as you. My German Jewish great, great grandparents on one side both converted to being Lutherans (no doubt for entirely defensive reasons), but to this day, my family uses Yiddish words and idioms occasionally (which I didn't even realize were Yiddish until I was in High School) and my grandma makes matzoh ball soup, along with other assorted cultural and biological artifacts (I get these weird little fetlocks...). So in our case, Yiddish cultural traits outlived having Judaism as our religion by over a century.

to go back to the ten (?) tribes that originated with Moses. I think his brother, Aaron, was the head of the "Kohenim" which was the exalted tribe that produced rabbis and the "House of Kings" (e.g., David, Jesus) for example.

Your term, "Yiddish" refers to the the branch of European Jews who originated in Spain, were kicked out of it by the Inquisition around the time of Columbus, and a majority headed east. Some went to Holland, Germany, etc., but most ended up in Russia, Poland, Lithuania. These are Ashkenazi. They speak Yiddish which is a derivative of the German language and have their own culture (dietary, music, laws/Talmud, rituals).

The other large sect of European Jews (also kicked out of Spain) are Sephardic. They went to North Africa where, although a strong Moslem presence, they were allowed to live in relative peace in Algieria, Morocco, etc. They have dark skin, dark hair as compared to the Nordic features of the Ashkenazi. They have their own culture altogether of a kosher cuisine reflecting their African origins, rituals, etc. The Jews who stayed in Spain went underground. They let the Church "convert" while secretly maintaining their customs and religious rites. They were called Moranos (sp?).

But what unites these different subsets of European Jewry is that they still identify themselves as Jews as per the Old Testament with Abraham, Moses, and the promise of Israel as well as following the 632 (?) commandments (in theory if not in practice).

I don't think he cared about their religion.He was trying to crate an Arian (sp) race. So I say it is a race.

a religion, even if Hitler thought otherwise.

for the Cohen gene.

Among very observant Jews those who are considered Cohanim (the priestly class--i.e. descendents of Aaron) are prohibited from marrying several classes of women, among them converts to Judaism. Therefore they tend to be less diluted ethnically.

http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna_chain_of_tradition.htm

Jewish tradition, based on the Torah, is that all Kohanim are direct descendants of Aharon, the original Kohen. The line of the Kohanim is patrilineal: it has been passed from father to son without interruption from Aharon, for 3,300 years, or more than 100 generations.

snip

Dr. Karl Skorecki was attending services one morning. The Torah was removed from the ark and a Kohen was called for the first aliya. The Kohen called up that particular morning was a visitor: a Jew of Sefardic background. His parents were from Morocco. Skorecki also a has a tradition of being a Kohen, though of Ashkenazi background. His parents were born Eastern Europe. Karl (Kalman) Skorecki looked at the Sefardi Kohen's physical features and considered his own physical features. they were significantly different in stature, skin coloration and hair and eye color. Yet both had a tradition of being Kohanim--direct descendants of one man--Aharon HaKohen.

snip

He considered a hypothesis: if the Kohanim are descendants of one man, they should have a common set of genetic markers--a common haplotype-- that of their common ancestor. In our case, Aharon HaKohen.

that problem!!!

I've always been an atheist, and when I was younger, I didn't talk about being Jewish. My Bar Mitzvah was a combination of a guilt trip and a social debut. It was OK, the drummer let me play his kit, and I had a blast.

But others would see what I ate for breakfast, the kind of humor I favored. The culture is part of me. It was when I read Isaac Asimov's (another atheist) wonderful books about the Bible that I understood. The Jews are members of a tribe and I come from that tribe. Jews do not necessarily have the traditional faith. The rabbi that Bar Mitzvahed me was sympathetic to my views. He was more interested that I maintain the ethical traditions of Judiasm than follow the beliefs.

So I am quite comfortable being a Jewish atheist. As for race, there is only one human race.

--IMM

Food for thought.

And the terms are deliberately misused in political debates to muddy the waters (especially when it comes to Israel).

If someone has a problem with the jewish religion, zionism, or Israel's actions as a nation, they can and are often attacked as being a racist by people who defend those things.

It's very annoying.

world. From Russia and Poland to Germany, Italy, Spain and South America — even Africa (Ethiopian Jews).

Hadn't thought of that word for some reason

race, religion, ethnicity, culture, peoples...

race n.

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.
4. Humans considered as a group.

Only in the very broad definitions 3 & 4, yes. Since we do not share a history or nationality, no. Israelis, however, may get to call themselves a race. So, it's still up for debate, I suppose.

I remember a while ago someone was trying to pass legislation to legally declare Jews a race, but I don't know who, or when, and I haven't been able to find it on Google either.

It really makes you think. As one of Christian heritage who tends more or less to IChing/hippie religion (if that makes sense to anyone)I think we have to free ourselves of labels!

Well there was that Hitler fellow back in the 30's. He didn't just try, he succeeded, but it was all bullshit, there is no jewish race, there are (several) jewish cultural traditions, some of which include various forms of religious practices.

I grew up with an agnostic 1st generation Irish Roman Catholic father and an atheist 2nd generation American Jewish mother from the eastern european branch of the wandering tribe. I have no idea what I am other than fiercely opposed to religious foolery of all kinds, and an american.

(the line is thin these days, I know) and recently. It had to do with racial discrimination.

I don't know if it is or not. I don't think so. If, however, one prescribes to the theory that all Jews came from the tribes, then presumably they all would share a lineage, but it would be Egyptian, not Israeli. The "promised land" is another topic we could go on and on about.

Neither race nor religion.

Really there is no such thing as 'race'. People talk about ethnicity and there are patterns, but 'race' is no longer a valid concept. Not because of PC or anything, but just becuase there is no 'white' race, or 'black' race, we're all just shades of grey.

Anyway with that said there are Jews who are fully semitic and are of the 'jewish' ethnicity. Of these there are members of Judaism, Christianity, and yes even Islam (though granted not many of them). Then there are the european jews which is sort of half and half. If you're an Italian Jew, you're pretty much guaranteed to have jewish ancestry, and they've done genetic testing which shows this, but the ethnicity has been 'cut' if you will with liberal helpings of italian in your case, or polish with polish jews...german, russian, a mixture.

So really you're both. You're Jewish, as part of your ancestry, but you're not Jewish as part of your religion. Sometimes people will just refer to themselves as semitic, but I find that to be a fairly broad brush.

:popcorn:

and there was never intermarriage in my heritage. I don't consider being Jewish a race though. My mom is a blue-eyed blonde.

I am not a practicing Jew. My ex and my kids don't practice Judaism either, but we all do consider ourselves Jews.

a religion (they may be Orthodox, Reform, atheist). They have certain distinct genetic features, such as a higher likelihood of Tay-Sachs.
Till quite recently, marriages between the Ashkenazim and other Jews was not too common. The 'Old Testament' narrative of the Hebraic people is a distincly tribal one, with birth being the most important requirement to be considered an 'Israelite'

christianity is a religion of faith in the sense that membership is determined based on your faith, or at least, your stated faith.

proclaim your faith in jesus and you're a christian. disavow jesus, and you're out. membership isn't determined based on your parent's religion or even based on a conversion rite. faith trumps all when it comes to membership.


judaism doesn't care much about what you actually believe. there is a standard mythology associated with judaism, but you don't have to believe it to be jewish, or even to be a "good" jew. judaism is all about identity. the kosher laws are, at least in part, simply a way to identify yourself as a jew. in practicing kashrut, you can say, we are jews - we are the people who practice the laws of kashrut.

however, it isn't cut and dried. there are many markers of jewish identity, and no one is required to observe or practice any particular one in order to be jewish. although it may be hard to gain acceptance in an orthodox community if you eat bacon wrapped scallops au gratin, you won't be 'excommunicated' or forcibly made a non-jew.

on the other hand, the hitlers of the world do consider it to be a race, inherited from the birth mother.

the bottom line, for me anyway, is that it is how you identify yourself:

>> if you consider yourself to be a jew, then that is what you are. <<

your local synogogue may not recognize you as a jew until you officially convert, but in my book, at that point, you're a jew who happens to not be recognized as such by the local synogogue. they can change how the recognize you but they cannot change your identity.

catholic, but converted when she was in her 40s. so what does that make her?

which makes her a jew in my book.

and the religion is Judaism. While you are not "Jewish" because you do not believe in the religion, you are still partially of Hebrew ethnicity.

If so I would qualify since all my ancestors are Norwegian. My wife could perhaps qualify since she is half English and half Norwegian.

I think Jews are perhaps an ethnicity, but not a race. To me, ethnicity is more defined by cultural practices than by genetics. Am I right? Dunno. Definitely a religion, though! haha :)

an area called the Pale of the Settlement. That area covers what is now Byelorus and the Ukraine as well as parts of Poland. Jews kept to themselves and tended not to marry the local Russian population. In many European countries Jews were not full citizens because they were not Christian.

Jewishness is an ethnicity, a peoplehood as well as a religion (anyone can convert and become Jewish). It's not a race but is kind of like being Italian.

During WWII you would have been classified as a Jew, albeit one of "mixed race" and sent to the nearest concentration camp. It did not matter how much or how little you knew about Judaism or whether you had been baptized (as many German Jews had).

If you walked into an orthodox or any synagogue you would be considered Jewish and would count in a minyan (the quoram of ten required for Jewish prayer services). It would not matter whether you believe in god or not. Your mamma was Jewish...

uncle was american -- don't know how he met my aunt laura (who was german born christian), but they were living in germany and had 2 little boys and were put into a concentration camp. eventually they were released and moved to the U.S. i think they owned some kind of business in germany.

i have to ask my mom if she knows why they were in a camp.

Holocaust. Many Germans found out they had Jewish ancestry once the Nuremberg laws went into effect.

Your relatives could have been put in a camp because of politics as well. Hitler was no admirer of unions (remind you of anyone else?)

the little girl from the only Jewish family on the block. I was able to separate my religion (Catholic) and ethnicity (Hispanic), but my friend would say she was Jewish no matter which question you asked her about her religion and her ethnicity. Her mother finally settled the problem by explaining that the family had immigrated from Russia.

However, that said, I think Jewish people no matter what their ethnicity are very much caught up into the Jewish inheritance that they are born into. It isn't like the rest of us who have to perform some sort of ritual like baptism to enter the club. Yes, I know boys must be circumcised but still I wonder if by chance a male of a Jewish mother who escapes circumcision would not be considered Jewish anyway by birth?

It is a bit of a race. It goes through bloodlines passed down by generations which are spposed to come from Aaron the High Priest.

smacked that kid down. I'm just like you Russian Jewish Mother Irish Roman Catholic Father. I drink alot... but only the cheap shit. ;) Neither of my parents were very religious, the holidays were more for family gathering than religious observance. I have been getting alot of calls from a local Rabbi lately asking us to come to Temple.
Jewish is the Religion. Israeli would be the race. I'm an American though, a mutt.

Obviously it can be a religion; it's certainly an ethnicity (because Jewish atheists still call themselves Jewish), and, in British law, and (judging by an earlier post, though it might have been reversed by then, I suppose) American law too, anti-semitism counts as 'racial hatred'. This also applies to Sikhs in British law, since they are also regarded as a 'mono-ethnic religion' (though Hinduism does not qualify for this, which I'm slightly surprised by).

David Cross tackles this on one of his CDs. The above is the question he gets from the rabbi.

I have no answer to your question, sorry.