I need help advice on how to handle this please no flames

Hey everyone I am having something of a family crisis regarding attending Roman Catholic Mass. Please no knee jerk responses until you have read this. Anyhow my family is a strong catholic family I myself am a believer but I had a falling out with my families church over several social issues. I am not going to rehash the arguement here it's not necessary and will only provoke a flame war.
I am now attending Episcopal mass and I love the service however every once in a while especially during the holidays I get hammered going back to the family church. Normally I can get out of it but not before a big hassle from everyone. Now here is the problem.
My sister Selene put my niece Destiny up to asking me to her Desi read during the children's mass this Friday. I polite declined the pumpkin and my mom flipped out and said "it would be nice to support the family just this once." Now this really made me livid.
I am a thirty seven year old man with parkinson's. Thats why my spelling is so bad on posts sometimes. How can I get them to understand that I cannot attend mass which doesn't support the research that I need to be healthy? I mean I guess the priest are supposed to be having an anti stem cell lecture this weekend in the homily if the information in my email is correct.
And whenever I point that out to my parents they say it's one person's point of veiw I should just ignore it? So I was wondering if there is any advice you can give me so that I can handle this situation. I have really tried being nice and polite over this but I keep getting raked over the coals. Especially like I said I do believe in a higher power but not the hp that they believe in. And I also believe that no ones religious belief's have the right to keep me sick.
So if someone can help me with this problem I would greatly appreciate it. I am tired of being stuck in the middle and being the one who backs down. Thank you everyone for letting me vent and peace.
You guys are the best family that a person can have.
:hug:

relationships involved. You and your mother; your sister; the Catholic church; your niece. What one is the most important in this case? What message does your potential choice make?

Will the Catholic church care, or be aware, of your feelings either way? Will your mother and sister change? Might it be possible that the most important thing here is your niece? Could you tell her that, while this isn't what you would choose for yourself, she is what is most important in this situation, and you will put her first?

What message does it send her if you go? If you don't go?

I suppose I can just bite my lip for one hour and think of others. I think the role of martyr is somehow my role in life too play. If I go just for the sake of my niece though the question becomes one of personal hypocrisy unless I am over thinking this?
Peace H2o man thank you for being on these boards. Your a good friend and your post are allways informative. :hug:

whether the neice will be hurt if you don't. Are you close to the neice? or is it a flagrant ploy by the sister?

the neice probably doesn't know or care about the validity/non validity of the catholic church in your POV at this time, but she WILL know/care she asked uncle DanCa to come and he refused.

I would say that its a children's mass, its family, so no one would or should consider that being hypocritical to your principles if you attend. If it makes you feel any better, (and this is how to come off like a knight in shining armor), tell them that even though going to the catholic church USUALLY would be against your principles, for your neice, you'd go anywhere.

This would do both things: 1. earn points with your neice and your family, and 2. make your political point without rancor.

them's my two cents anyhow.

ask your neice directly to come and do her reading just for you, as a sort of rehearsal because you love her and are proud of her? Her mother probably wouldn't agree, but that's her mother's problem.

to the niece to put her in a situation that triangulates, putting her in the middle of her mother and her uncle. Kids should not suffer the consequences of adult disagreements.

DanCa is now stuck between two bad choices.

Personally, if I were in your situations (and, believe me, my family has had the religion wars in a big way), I'd probably cave in and go to church.

On the other hand, I'm wondering whether your family has not yet accepted your adult to decision to choose not to attend services. It may be more important to stand your ground this time and let the chips fall where they may. Thirty-seven is, in many families, not quite grown up, and it may be that your family needs a polite reminder as to where they stop and you begin. I don't think it's productive to fight about it, but it might well be valuable to show them they can't push you around, even using beloved children as hostages (an inexcusable tactic).

You do not ever need to apologize for being who you are or following your own conscience when it comes to matters of belief.

Very excellent questions.

I think that this is a case of family vs. ideology. You have to choose the path that is most important to you. If you believe that your family is more important, then that is the choice you should go with. If your convictions are most important, then you will go with them.

just refuse to go. Tell them you love them and support their right to go, but they need to understand that you can't. If they push you harder, just say absolutely not and refuse to talk about it anymore.

If you have backed down and attended in the past, they will push you hard to go until they figure out it is useless.

Good luck.

has asked me to read at funerals etc. In those situations, I accept, and I have looked at these experiences as opptys to role model an accepting way of looking at g*d and the world in general. However, the last funeral I read at - will be my last. The piece that was chosen for me to read was so abhorrent to my point of view that I had nightmares about it afterward.

Other than reading for your sister, you can always pray for their eventual understanding of your hp and your needs. Who knows, others in the congregation will know your situation and your choice and you may find that you have a 'teaching moment' in that community and may win some people over - if not your family.

to tell them. What you said is clear, articulate (to the point it can be with limited background, history, family-crap, etc...) and straightforward.

If they want you to support the family, fine. If you feel they are not supporting YOU, then tell them that in plain, quiet tones. If they continue to put their love of church before love of family (my opinion from your post. I'm not making any judgments, just observations on this...) Then tell them that HE will be the one to judge, not them, or you. And certainly not the church or the pope.

I do feel for you, and I don't want to tell you what to do, nor can I really. If it were me, I'd kiss the dearest ones goodbye, and not even speak to the ones who are especially infuriating. I'd cut them off completely, until they either accepted me, or at least acknowledged that I was free to have my own opinion, disagree with it and still be polite.

I'm atheist, so for me god or church does not even come into play, just family. I hope this does more good than harm.

edit... WHOOOPS !!! Sory about that.!

Peace I think I should wait until later in the days write all this down and decide the best possible course of action. This is why ceasar and state should be separated.

If you do go it should be for yourself and your niece - nobody else in this equation matters.

I can understand where you are coming from, and what I have stated above whould be what I would consider. If it would break my niece's heart not to have me there, I would make the effort to go. OTOH, if it doesn't really matter to her, then make your decision based on that.

May God guide us, and make things easy for us.

Peace.

I'm the same way with the Church although I am a Christian. But when it comes to family members, even I can once in a blue moon just bite my tongue and do it for family sake.

What I suggest is while you're there, outside of paying attention to your niece doing her thing, I would spend the entire service in prayer that the Catholic leaders finally get it about the importance of Stem Cell Research!

Since your family knows your feelings about stem cell research, and since the homily is about stem cell research; I smell a rat. Is it possible that you are being "set up" by being asked on that particular date?

My suggestion is to go to the Episcopal mass and take your niece out for an ice cream date after church. Tell her you love her and ask about her program.

Keep standing your ground. :hug:

I think am trying to be all things to all people. :hug:

As others have said, family is the most important thing. I'd say go for Destiny. Take care. :hug:

It's not about your family. it's not about a building. it's not about a human construct called "religion". All that is secondary at best. It is about the teachings of Jesus. Follow & adhere to that, and you will have your answer. Meanwhile, since you seem to be dealing with a bunch of clods, your best defense, is "what did Jesus say about that? What did Jesus teach about helping the sick & needy? Are you really doing something, or trying to pass a job you don't want to do, on to someone else?"
You should make your illness your strength. If they want you to speak in their church, then maybe it is your time to speak out by example. Confront them with the reality of the results of their dogma. Rub their noses in it- show them, in their church, the difficulties you must endure, and ask them why they want to inflict this upon you?

It's nice to allways meet new friends :hi: :hug:

Bible. For all of my searches, never found that chapter or verse.

It seems to me as though you are being manipulated, big time, by mom. I doubt that niece came up with that on her own. That manipulation is nothing to be embarrassed about - all parents try to mold their kids into a shape they prefer, even in their 40-50s (the kids, I mean).

The how and why to deal with it is another matter. I suspect calling a spade a spade (describing the manipulation effort) would be counter productive. Parents hate being called out on one of their tricks.

Instead, why not invite mom and sis to one of your ceremonies? Tell them that you have as much right to choose your service as they do, and before they condemn what they do not know, they should check it out. Also, politely let them know that your new church not only supports true science, (like stem cells) it provides even more of what you need in support and philosophical ideas than their church.

The family wants him to attend the children's mass where his niece will speak.

it was sinful of the sister to put your niece into the fray. It was cheap, manipulative and actually emotionally abusive to the child.

As such, you have a right to explain to your niece that you "don't go to that church anymore." Offer, as an ameliorative, to take her with you to your church some Sunday, since you certainly *do* want to spend time with her, and church is an important part of your famiy's life.

I wish you the best in your prognosis. I share your perplexity with just about any faith short of Jainism that won't permit the healing of the sick to take precedence over a blastocyst. I guess next the church will try to change that word to "blastoperson." Oy!

Best wishes.

than if you cave in to your family. I was raised Catholic also and I understand where your family is coming from, however, you have to do what you believe is right. You have every right to not want to go to a church that you really aren't welcomed in. As a former catholic I had to come to the realization that if they knew how I felt about abortion, homosexuality, stem cell research, etc, they would not want me there more than I didn't want to be there. I will not go where I am not wanted. It is a matter of self preservation. Don't lose this chance to teach your niece a very important lesson. She may not get it until she is older, she might not get it at all, but show her that you can think for yourself. She knows you are a good person and if you can do it she can too. If not today than someday.

My son wanted to be confirmed in the Catholic church and I said no because of their homosexuality stance. It is a matter of principle. It didn't go over well with my mother but it was more important to me that my son know that you stand up for what you believe in you don't just go along with the crowd because it is easier.

The catholic church isn't going anywhere and maybe someday we can go back. IF they get their head out of their you know what.

Good luck and stay strong.

One last thing, don't let this take too much out of you. Say what you need to say and then leave it alone. Ask your mother to respect your decision and stop asking you to go.

services? You could even invite the entire family. Start putting pressure on them to join you. Harp on it. If they expect you to honor their faith which you have strong and logical reasons to dislike, then they should offer the same respect to your choice in religions.

If nothing else, when you turn the tables on them by inviting your niece, they'll realize how inappropriate it is to try to "lure" people away from their chosen religion and leave you alone with yours.

And, since I'm an Episcopalian, I admit I'm prejudiced

on edit: If the subject of the homily is anti-stem cell, I would certainly refuse to go.

church that does not help the search for cures is not a kind, loving CHRISTIAN religion that the real Jesus Christ would have approved of, and for that reason you have move to a more caring, loving church.

Yes, your family is manipulating you through your niece. But, it is your cute little niece for goodness sake. God trumps family principles, but family trumps church community principles. Besides, it tells people that you are around, are healthy and are choosing not to come.

In fact, myself, I like remaining near those difficult people and interjecting, calmly, points that undermine their erroneous constructs. Keep your friends close; keep your enemies closer.

Sermons don't have a question and answer session. Lectures often do. Make sure it does. Don't you have any good questions to ask? Ohhhh, you should.

Make sure they know that it's for your niece. Yes, backing down is hard, so let me leave you with this old joke:

Two men drove right up to each other on a one lane bridge. As they stepped out of their cars, one loudly said: "I'd never back up for an idiot!" The other said: "I would." As he slipped his car into reverse.

One of the biggest misconceptions about stem-cell research is that the Catholic Church opposes it, said Father Tadeusz Pacholczyk, who studied neuroscience at Yale University and theology at Gregorian University in Rome. On the contrary, he said, the church supports three of the four ways that stem-cell research currently is being conducted:

--- Adult stem-cell research, involving the growth of stem cells from the patient's own tissue or that of another living donor.

--- Stem cells developed from umbilical cord blood or placentas after a delivery is completed.

--- Cells from fetal tissue derived from miscarriages (also called spontaneous abortions), as long as the parents give informed consent.

http://www.the-tidings.com/2005/0318/stembasic.htm

they are against the research on embryonic stem-cells

So it shows that your parents are pretty ignorant and framing a kid to force you to go to mass is nothing else than at least despicable.

All this reminds me of the words a famous Swedish preacher pronounced one day :

"What's good for God, is bad for religion and what's bad for religion, is good for God".

-- a liberty which includes which church, when to go, and what to conclude as a result of reasonable consideration.

I believe your family is making an inappropriate claim with its pressure, and that the liberty of personal choice holds whether or not you object to some Catholics' take on stem cell research.

If your family is disappointed in your position, quite frankly that's their problem. For the holidays, get them a copy of a good biography of Thomas Jefferson. I think he'd back your decision on this one.

and leave during the homily and then return. You would only be going to see and hear your niece. Afterwards, you could speak to the priest in a calm manner and explain why you are now an Episcopalian. Take your niece and explain as much as her age can understand that you now belong to another church and would never have come except for your love of her and wanting to support her on her special day.

It is just a power play by your family - but you are now the one with the power to maintain both your intregity and the family ties at the same time - even though your family may not see it that way until later.

Assuming the family knows of your stance, this means that their friends in the congregation know your stance and possibly even the priests. Having your presence among them during this reading will cause you to be on their minds during this reading. You put a face on stem cell research issues for them - and an important face. I hope that, if you go, you can feel their unease. There are others in the congregation that share your support of stem cell research. You will, perhaps, lend a face to their support and, hopefully, give a new face to those who don't support this important research. You can never sway people of different beliefs if you don't 'congregate' with them.


I wish you peace and love during this difficult time. H20 man said it best, as usual.

I want to suggest telling them that, by standing up to church doctrine you don't believe in, you're doing what we ALL should have been doing all along. In church, at the office, in the neighborhood, we all should have been questioning more. Questioning too much is most definitely NOT the problem in our nation, our churces or the world, for that matter.

Unless their belief runs along the lines that the earth IS the center of the universe, and that the man that said it wasn't (Aristotle, placed under house arrest by the church, I think?) deserved to be persecuted by the church, they cannot say you are "wrong" for simply opposing the church. On this issue, the church is not necessarily "right", and history has shown them again and again to oppose ideas ONLY because they they threaten doctrine, not your collective souls. The issue of life is microscopic; it's not a given that killing it is a sin anymore than killing insects or germs is "murder".

I'd offer up that, unless they'd have been happy with the fate of Aristotle, they ought to be proud of their son, standing up the best he can. A son who doesn't have it easy, isn't easy to stand up in the first place. A son who could just as easily go along with the crowd, but instead, holds to his convictions, even to his own family. There is little in this life that's more difficult to do, in my book, than stand alone. Isn't it what the good book says to do?

It's a little embarrassing, to be linked to those oddballs that don't follow the crowd. So much easier if we all did what we're told, so much better if we all "obey". But without those types of people, where would we be?

Would Jesus Christ have ever mattered? Or would those characters in your family who insult you have, themselves, helped nail him to the cross? A lot of people did, it wasn't a popular thing to support him. Most people followed the crowd, the doctrine, and did AS THEY WERE TOLD. Did what was expected of them. Were afraid to stand out, to risk embarrassment. Were facing SO much more strife than WE are, here, for standing up. THEY faced real persecution, right? So now your act of refusing to participate is wrong because...you aren't going along?

I'd be proud of you myself. In fact, I am. :)

Sure, it's important for your neice that you're there.

But if you give in, will she ever learn that faith is in the individual, not inside stone walls? Will she ever learn that family is more important than church? Will she ever learn that peace of mind comes from being who we are and not what others expect us to be? Will she ever learn that there are people we love in this world who think differently than us and that's okay? Will she ever learn tolerance for different points of view if her uncle doesn't ask it of her?

You have reached the point in your life where you realize your family is asking you to be something you're not and you have to decide what that will mean for you.

I have dealt with very similar circumstances in my family over the years and though it doesn't seem like it at the time, the stress, the frustration, the hurt feelings, the determination to be yourself will act as a crucible. And when it is all done, you will have galvanized the ones who care most for you to your way of thinking - at least to an understanding tolerance that you can be who you are and that's okay.

And those who don't come around? Unfortunately, you will have to decide what to do with them and that is not easy. In my case, I assiduously avoid the more poisonious ones, the ones who are still so cruely self-absorbed in their own world and expect me to make everything right. The rest I tolerate in small doses. Sadly, one of the most poisonous was very close to me and leaving her "behind" was a difficult decision. It even meant not going home for xmas as she turned it into something so awful for me. Our relationship had gotten to the point of being so poisonous that once the decision was made to not go home for the holidays, I had the most wonderful xmas in years.

It's sad, DanCa, that our families put us in a position of chosing between them and what's important to us. I say stick to your guns. You are as important in this equation as your neice, as your sister, as your mother. Don't let them shame you into giving up part of yourself. It's okay to expect to be respected, even by one's own mother.

If they want you to respect their beliefs then they have to respect yours.

You said it all - you are an adult, and you make your own decisions. You love your family, but love doesn't make demands. If they truly love you then they have no place making a demand like this - it's an invasion of privacy and belief.

How would they feel if you had asked them to attend a mass that went AGAINST their beliefs? Well, for starters, you probably wouldn't, and that's the point.

2 days before my wedding, my new mother in law told me she wanted us to have a Bible passage reading in the ceremony for "the grandmothers". I'm an atheist. I also had people telling me that it would just be a nice gesture, and that I should do it and not worry about it. But it bothered me so much I was in tears about it. I refused, ultimately, and I'm glad I did. I don't think it hurt my husbands g-mothers all that much really!

Your neice - it depends on how close you are to her, and also how old she is. If she's 6, and this is a big deal to her, she might be hurt if you don't go, but I think would "get over it" pretty quickly. If she's 12, then she probably doesn't want to do the reading anyway, and would *rather* no one came!

i think your family is putting the focus on the "poor little neice" and her feelings and maybe not enough on your feelings. you are family too, and they're not supporting you - though they make their inflammatory statements about supporting family being so important.

Would a really open discussion help at this point, or has that been tried already? I mean, what if you said "I really would like to hear Desi read, but we need to work out this stem-cell issue so you understand my trouble with your church."?

I wish my blood family were as nice as you guys are. What I am going to do is simply ask Destiny tonight if she really wants me to be there. After that it's a crap shoot but I have another question.

Would it be wrong if I go there to see what "the other" side has to say and than do my homework and debunk the article in the paper? Also would it be appropriate to wear my donkey pin and parkinsons bracelet into the service as a quiet protest?

Hugs and peace to everyone you made me feel better about my predicament. Like I said I wish I could choose my family. I think the world of you all. I am off to physical therapy now and the than the library. Ill let you know you know what transpires after dinner time tonight. Thanks again. :hug: and peace.

All of your thoughts are positive and perfectly appropriate. Peace to you.

And ask him why in embryo is more important than a cure for my disease. Than Ill write a long letter to the daily herald about his response or lack thereof. It's going to be scarey. Wish me luck.

That is a good way to handle it. I would be very surprised if the homily of a children's mass is about stem cell research. From my experience as a former teacher in a Catholic school, the children's masses were always about Jesus' teachings and how they relate to the children's lives. Destiny will be happy that you were there.
Let us know how it goes. Peace to you.:hug:

When the priest faced the other way and you didn't know what was going on. :D It was a much happier church back than.

Probably should have responded to the newer thread. Your niece will have the benefit and pride of your presence and love, as well as an opportunity to watch a loved one take a stand for themselves and others.

Yea- I think this is what Jesus would do - kind of like turning over all those tables. I've always thought this was possibly the first act of civil disobedience - and a well planned one.

I think that you should go if it matters to your young family member. However, I'd tell your family that you'll go but you're going as a guest the same way you would if you were going to a wedding or a christening. Focus on Desi the way you'd focus on the people getting married during a wedding and don't contribute money when the plate's passed around. (If that's done during a Catholic ceremony -- I can't remember.)

My mother and my sisters are Evangelical Christians, and their church believes so many things that I find disgusting and insulting as a woman. However, I attended my sister's wedding where she said that she promised to obey her husband. (Blech!) I've also attended my husband's brother's Jewish wedding and a Jewish friend's Bat Mitzvah. I was a guest in the church and/or synagogue. It didn't mean that I believe the same things as either Evangelical Christians or Jews, and I won't be going to these places except for these exceptional special situations.

I understand that your health issues make the situation especially trying. Just don't even listen to the rest of the stuff.

Hugs to you from a member of your DU family. :hug:

(ON EDIT: I just read the responses above and see that you've decided to go. Good luck!)

With respect to anyone whose a practicing catholic I love the religion but it dosen't seem to love me and I guess the only way to enact change is by doing something overt. I hope this topic of discussion was respectful to all. Thank you all for your support. Hope that you will all be mentally holding my hand Friday.
Hugs this is going to be tough.

I hope that it turns out that the homily is nothing that will make you uncomfortable and that the children's mass is something that can be a good time for your whole family.

I'm neither Catholic nor Episcopalian, but I firmly believe that God meets us all wherever we are and that sometimes organized religion does a very good job of getting in the way.

Blessings. :hug:

I was thinking about you. :hug: